Trump Says 'More White People' Killed By Police, 'People Love' The Confederate Flag

[JonNC]

I don’t blame them. I don’t “hold them accountable.” I just don’t think we use the word “conservative” when we talk about people who want to change things, as that is the opposite of what “conservative” means

Of course it is. A conservative wants to conserve, preserve, defend two things. 1) individual rights, 2) limited government.
If we expand our understanding of individual rights (manifest in the ninth amendment), that is conservative.
If, OTOH, expansion of government power is the goal, that is progressivism.

That still does not flip the meanings of “conservative” and “progressive.”

I know. It confirms their meanings.
Conservatives - conservative, protect and defend the basic principles of individual rights and limited government.
Progressive- expansion of government power at the cost of individual rights.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

A conservative wants to conserve, preserve, defend two things. 1) individual rights, 2) limited government.

…says no dictionary.

If we expand our understanding of individual rights…

…then we would call such a move progressive in any age. In the 1860s it was expanding the rights of blacks. In the 1920’s it was expanding the rights of women. In the 21st century it was expanding the rights of gay people. Sometimes these expansions are bad and sometimes they are good. But they are all properly termed progressive.

We should not corrupt language to further our ideological goals, whatever they may be.

 

[JonNC]

…says no dictionary

Ask any conservative.

…then we would call such a move progressive in any age

No. That would be in keeping with the conservative principle of individual rights and limited government.

In the 1860s it was expanding the rights of blacks. In the 1920’s it was expanding the rights of women.

That’s what conservatives were doing.
Meanwhile, Sanger, the progressive, was selling her eugenics racist views, and Wilson, the progressive, was watching “Birth of a Nation” and promoting the KKK.

Sometimes these expansions are bad and sometimes they are good. But they are all properly termed progressive.

The only expansion that progressivism stands for the the expansion of government. And it almost always means a limiting of individual rights.

We should not corrupt language to further our ideological goals, whatever they may be.

Then don’t, but that is often what progressives do.
Progressives say healthcare is a right. I agree. Then they say government should “provide” (read, “control “) it. Now it’s no longer a right, but a government power,
Rights pre-exist government.
I have a right to feee speech, but government shouldn’t provide me a microphone.
I have a right to religious free exercise, but government doesn’t build churches.
I have a right to firearms, but government shouldn’t give me a rifle.
Why? Because my right shouldn’t be paid for by you, and it shouldn’t be controlled by government. Same with healthcare.

Stop changing the meanings of words.

 

[josie_L]

Whether I flag a post or not doesn’t change the nature of your response which was rather insulting.

And I’m not worried if you think I flagged your post.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

…says no dictionary

Ask any conservative.

Your disdain for dictionary definitions is truly amazing, given your background in education.

LeafByNiggle:

In the 1860s it was expanding the rights of blacks. In the 1920’s it was expanding the rights of women.

That’s what conservatives were doing.

No, the conservatives were conserving white supremacy and men-only voting.

Meanwhile, Sanger, the progressive, was selling her eugenics racist views,

Oh, yes, she was a progressive. No doubt about. A bad one too.

and Wilson, the progressive, was watching “Birth of a Nation” and promoting the KKK.

Wilson was a mixed bag. He was progressive in his support for the League of Nations, but he was conservative in his white supremacists views.

The only expansion that progressivism stands for the the expansion of government.

Well, you are right about one thing. Expansion of government is a progressive idea, because it involves change. But it is hardly the only thing progressives ever stood for. As I said, progressives of the 1860 (i.e. the Republicans) stood for expanding legal rights of slaves.

 

[JonNC]

Your disdain for dictionary definitions is truly amazing, given your background in education.

It isn’t disdain for dictionary definitions. It is a disdain for misapplication of those definitions.

No, the conservatives were conserving white supremacy and men-only voting.

No. They were not. It was the progressives that saw government power as a way to limit the rights of people they thought less worthy of rights.

Well, you are right about one thing. Expansion of government is a progressive idea, because it involves change.

Because it involves oppression. Government power was used by progressives in the Jim Crow south. That was progressivism. Government power, limiting or denying individual rights, precisely the same thing that happened in Minneapolis. Of what political view is the mayor there, in Atlanta, in Seattle, New York, Chicago, Baltimore, Philadelphia?
Progressive Democrats. Where do these events take place? Where progressives rule. Why? Because they believe government power trumps individual rights.

As I said, progressives of the 1860 (i.e. the Republicans) stood for expanding legal rights of slaves.

No, they didn’t. They were the ones standing in the way in 1860, 1920, 1957, and today.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It isn’t disdain for dictionary definitions. It is a disdain for misapplication of those definitions.

I cited the definitions of conservative and progressive literally and I applied them the only way one can - directly and literally.

No. They were not. It was the progressives that saw government power as a way to limit the rights of people they thought less worthy of rights.

Maybe that was true in 1776 when those powers were being set up and were - at that time - new powers. Then you could say setting up government powers to protect slavery was a progressive idea. But by 1860 that government power had become a long-standing traditional value. Thus support for it was a conservative idea.

Because it involves oppression.

There is no dictionary that defines “progressive” as “promoting oppression”.

Government power was used by progressives in the Jim Crow south. That was progressivism.

No, the Jim Crow laws were to preserve what they had before the war and before Lincoln freed the slaves. It was a return to traditional values, and therefore conservative.

No, they didn’t. They were the ones standing in the way in 1860, 1920, 1957, and today.

The Republicans were standing in the way of expanding legal rights of slaves? Nonsense!

 

[Nepperhan]

The time of this being done without refutation is gone. Conservatives need to push back against it.

Name five conservative civil rights activists. People out there on the picket lines who got arrested. Folks who had some commitment to change.

If you cannot, consider what that means and revise your thinking.

 

[Nepperhan]

OK, I’ll spot you two progressive Democrats who could be called conservative – Ed Koch and Charlton Heston. Anyone have 3 more?

You see, I am expected to give credit for a changing definition of conservative, but JonNC and Odilon like to cite Democrats of the Civil War era as if they are somehow applicable to today’s Democratic party. Do you note an inconsistency?

 

[Nepperhan]

I think your two years of famine was worser than our Civil War.

 

[twf]

Those are very arbitrary definitions for the term “conservative” and “progressive”. You’re applying very specific, very American political definitions to terms that are generic English words.
A liturgical conservative in the Church cares nothing about individual freedoms, and in fact would demand absolute uniformity across devotional and worship expressions.

 

[JonNC]

I cited the definitions of conservative and progressive literally and I applied them the only way one can - directly and literally.

Completely out of context to the conversation. Yes, I know you did.

Maybe that was true in 1776 when those powers were being set up and were - at that time - new powers. Then you could say setting up government powers to protect slavery was a progressive idea. But by 1860 that government power had become a long-standing traditional value. Thus support for it was a conservative idea.

Actually it wasn’t a long-standing traditional value, as evidenced by the fact that over 100,000 main white northern soldiers list their lives to end it.

 

[JonNC]

The Republicans were standing in the way of expanding legal rights of slaves? Nonsense!

No. Progressive Democrats were.

 

[JonNC]

Name five conservative civil rights activists. People out there on the picket lines who got arrested. Folks who had some commitment to change.

Why do they have to be on a picket line?
I can tell you that it was a Republican president that sent troops to the south to stop the Democrat led segregation.
I can tell you it was a Republican Vice President who was instrumental in getting the 1957 covil rights act passed.
I can tell you that in all of these cities where these crimes against American blacks happen, it is at the hands of progressive Democrat governments.

And now, today, a Republican President has led the way on criminal justice reform, moved tax and regulatory policy that allowed for the lowest black unemployment rate, and highest employment rate in history.

Go march on a picket line. It’s a good Picture, but blacks still die at the hands of progressive Democrat government.

 

[YADA]

Name five conservative civil rights activists. People out there on the picket lines who got arrested. Folks who had some commitment to change.

If you cannot, consider what that means and revise your thinking.

I can tell you that Biden voted to restore American Citizenship to the President of the Confederate States of America - Jefferson Davis and to Robert E Lee who lead that treasonous rebellion against the United States of America that culminated in a Civil War in order to maintain ownership of People - That Biden voted to pass the bills and it was a Democratic President Carter who signed them into law …

It was Biden that said “fine people” raise the Confederate Flag …

It was the Democrats that filibustered the Civil Rights Act … and Robert KKK Byrd voted against it.
37% of Democrats voted against the Civil Rights Act - only 20% of Republicans voted against it

As a Senator - John Kennedy voted against the Civil Rights Act in the 1950s

President Nixon [yes - I know - probably not a favorite] introduced an affirmation action plan - referred to as the Philadelphia plan and signed the Environmental Protection Act into law

Dirkson, a Republican from the Land of Lincoln wrote the legislation that ended housing discrimination in the late 1960’s

 

[WingedHussar]

So with these amusing definitions of “conservative” and “progressive”, is trying to outlaw abortion a “conservative” or “progressive” position?

 

[Nepperhan]

Why do they have to be on a picket line?

That’s where activists were, weren’t they? Ike sent the troops into Little Rock because Faubus forced his hand. Ike was not a great civil rights proponent. Nixon led for legislation that had to be amended – it was a pretty political act which got us no where forward. You remember Reagan’s stand on civil rights legislation, right?

Can’t name those five conservative activists, can you? What does that tell you?

Go march on a picket line.

Been there, done that. More than 50 years ago.

 

[Nepperhan]

37% of Democrats voted against the Civil Rights Act - only 20% of Republicans voted against it

It was a northern vs. southern breakdown. There were no Republican congressmen in the south – remember Georgia’s Bo Callaway left the Democratic Party in '64 to be a GOP congressman? He left over the Democratic Party’s stance on civil rights (as did segregationists Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms). So those Democrats voting as to civil rights in the sixties included southern conservatives – who soon left. The Republicans had no southerners in their number so the percentage who voted for civil rights had to be higher.

See? Statistics can be downright misleading. One factual takeaway: The civil rights movement was fostered by liberals and progressives, not conservatives. That’s a fact to keep in mind.

 

[YADA]

Yes, I never said 100% of Republicans were pure . But then you don’t even begin to address all those other Democrats and there words and actions, votes and racist policies through the years including right up to the 70s and 80s and 90s that are notably racist .

The Democratic party never changed, they - like Sanger - got better at their messaging and selling themselves as caring …but their policies have failed - especially the African American community. Robert KKK Byrd and Biden are perfect examples.

 

[JonNC]

That’s where activists were, weren’t they? Ike sent the troops into Little Rock because Faubus forced his hand. Ike was not a great civil rights proponent.

He was a better one that JFK, for example , much less LBJ.
He sent them. He sent them because Democrats refused to allow integration.

Nixon led for legislation that had to be amended – it was a pretty political act which got us no where forward.

According to MLK, Nixon’s efforts were indispensable.

“Let me say before closing how deeply grateful all people of goodwill are to you for your assiduous labor and dauntless courage in seeking to make the Civil Rights Bill a reality.”

• MLK.

You remember Reagan’s stand on civil rights legislation, right?

I do. Here’s an example of his greater record on civil rights.