Trump Thread

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Tablefor9 said:
Who gets to decide when it’s okay to take another group’s land? And kill them while about it?
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Sad to say, but the nature of man is that land must be protected and fought over. It has been that way for every society, every piece of land, at every time and every place. Why people hold out the Native Americans and endow them with perpetual rights to an entire continent, contrary to what has happened with every other piece of land on the entire earth, baffles me.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
No one knows if it’s murder or not, Sy. No one knows when the potential human being is infused with a soul, and without that, there is no human person. There is only potential.
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I have a hard time grasping how a Catholic can say this? I know many, many people who believe as you do, but they do not call themselves Catholic.
 
Sy_Noe said:
There are religions, even Christian faith communities in fact, that even your church considers to be Christian, which allow for at least some legal choice in at least some instances.
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Where those faith communities diverge from Church teaching, they are veering from the truth and promoting error.
 
zz912 said:
Obviously you do not include yourself as one of those against abortion.
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That was imho a low blow. No it is not obvious. A person can be against abortion and believe hearts and minds must be changed on the sanctity of life. But simply when it comes down to it does not believe it is their right to enforce under the law of a pluralistic nation such as ours, their belief on this matter.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Soooo Catholics aren’t the only ones entitled to liberty. 🤷

If I were a female Christian belonging to the United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, PCUSA, TEC, ELCA and depending on which one, my faith believed and recognized that I should either have the legal right to be able to choose an abortion to end my pregnancy or that I should have the right in cases of rape or incest, to protect my own health, or in the case of fetal abnormalities, or that I should have the right until viability while the fetus was dependent upon my body, then if abortion was illegal, it would be an infringement upon my rights.

The fact is in a pluralistic society such as ours, it’s not always an easy task to satisfy all.

But as it stands now, religious liberty for women of childbearing age with regard to abortion isn’t being infringed upon. Catholics are still very free to choose not to abort what they believe is a human person from the moment of conception. And those who believe otherwise still have their liberty to choose an abortion which for them may be a very personal decision between themselves, their family, their doctor, and not the least between God and their own spiritual advisor, pastor, rabbi, or other clergy.
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Is it an infringement on one’s right not to be able to hold slaves? Slavery was once acceptable to some religious groups as well. That does not make it right, even though there were fringe groups who argued that persons of color had no souls.

Is it an infringement of rights for pedophilia to be illegal? Historically, there have been religious leaders who had, ahem, child brides.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. I am not concerned with what the alphabet soup brigade considers moral, I am concerned with what a holy God has to say.
 
Sy_Noe said:
That was imho a low blow. No it is not obvious. A person can be against abortion and believe hearts and minds must be changed on the sanctity of life. But simply when it comes down to it does not believe it is their right to enforce under the law of a pluralistic nation such as ours, their belief on this matter.
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Is it your right to argue against slavery–which still exists? Is it your right to condemn pedophilia and child pornogrphy? Of course. Your right and duty, in fact. Abortion is no different.
 
Tablefor9 said:
Is it an infringement on one’s right not to be able to hold slaves? Slavery was once acceptable to some religious groups as well. That does not make it right, even though there were fringe groups who argued that persons of color had no souls.

Is it an infringement of rights for pedophilia to be illegal? Historically, there have been religious leaders who had, ahem, child brides.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. I am not concerned with what the alphabet soup brigade considers moral, I am concerned with what a holy God has to say.
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Argue all you want. But there is now, thank God, a rather great consensus on slavery. And pedophilia. We are a far ways from one on abortion in this land. But nice try.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Soooo Catholics aren’t the only ones entitled to liberty. 🤷

If I were a female Christian belonging to the United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, PCUSA, TEC, ELCA and depending on which one, my faith believed and recognized that I should either have the legal right to be able to choose an abortion to end my pregnancy or that I should have the right in cases of rape or incest, to protect my own health, or in the case of fetal abnormalities, or that I should have the right until viability while the fetus was dependent upon my body, then if abortion was illegal, it would be an infringement upon my rights.

The fact is in a pluralistic society such as ours, it’s not always an easy task to satisfy all.

But as it stands now, religious liberty for women of childbearing age with regard to abortion isn’t being infringed upon. Catholics are still very free to choose not to abort what they believe is a human person from the moment of conception. And those who believe otherwise still have their liberty to choose an abortion which for them may be a very personal decision between themselves, their family, their doctor, and not the least between God and their own spiritual advisor, pastor, rabbi, or other clergy.
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Well stated and much better than Trump’s words on the topic.
 
Sy_Noe said:
That was imho a low blow. No it is not obvious. A person can be against abortion and believe hearts and minds must be changed on the sanctity of life. But simply when it comes down to it does not believe it is their right to enforce under the law of a pluralistic nation such as ours, their belief on this matter.
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Nonsense. She was making a snide and rude comment about those who oppose abortion, and obviously not including herself in that group. So I simply pointed out what was glaringly obvious from what she posted, that she doesn’t include herself in the group that is against abortion. Those were her words.
 
Sy_Noe said:
That was imho a low blow. No it is not obvious. A person can be against abortion and believe hearts and minds must be changed on the sanctity of life. But simply when it comes down to it does not believe it is their right to enforce under the law of a pluralistic nation such as ours, their belief on this matter.
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And how do we change hearts and minds when we vote to empower those who have vowed to keep abortion legal? Are there any other grievous offenses against one human rights that you feel should be tolerated until peoples hearts and minds are changed? Should segregation have remained in effect until peoples hearts and minds were changed? How about slavery?

The reality is many people of good will have aligned themselves with a political party that has long since fully embraced the culture of death. So it becomes a continuous game of having to rationalize their support for them even when they support such egregious evil.
 
Tablefor9 said:
Is it an infringement on one’s right not to be able to hold slaves? Slavery was once acceptable to some religious groups as well. That does not make it right, even though there were fringe groups who argued that persons of color had no souls.

Is it an infringement of rights for pedophilia to be illegal? Historically, there have been religious leaders who had, ahem, child brides.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. I am not concerned with what the alphabet soup brigade considers moral, I am concerned with what a holy God has to say.
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Interesting that the left was not in the least bit concerned about changing hearts and minds when the courts imposed legalized abortion and homosexual marriage on us.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Argue all you want. But there is now, thank God, a rather great consensus on slavery. And pedophilia. We are a far ways from one on abortion in this land. But nice try.
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Hi. I think it was more than a nice try. The comparison to slavery is often very helpful and clarifying in this debate.

It would be the Catholic’s perspective that, although slavery was at one time not a settled legal matter in the U.S., it was still wrong–and people of that day who argued, on moral grounds, that slave owners should have been deprived of the freedom to own slaves, were right.

They were right then, even though there was no consensus.

It’s the same reasoning today with abortion. We believe we are right, and that we should try to “impose” that view, in the same way religious people of the 18th century were morally right to try to “impose” their views in defense of slaves.
John
 
estesbob said:
And how do we change hearts and minds when we vote to empower those who have vowed to keep abortion legal? Are there any other grievous offenses against one human rights that you feel should be tolerated until peoples hearts and minds are changed? Should segregation have remained in effect until peoples hearts and minds were changed? How about slavery?

The reality is many people of good will have aligned themselves with a political party that has long since fully embraced the culture of death. So it becomes a continuous game of having to rationalize their support for them even when they support such egregious evil.
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One way to change hearts is for the Church to be more forceful in her preaching on social issues. Quite frankly, there is very little preaching. Everything is about mercy and social justice, it seems. Our pro-abortion politicians receive communion publicly. There is no sense from the Church that social issues should rank higher than some others. Our pope seems more concerned about protecting illegals than speaking out against abortion.

I will never vote for a pro-abortion candidate, but at the same time I do believe the Church bears a lot of responsibility if not more than the government.
 
estesbob said:
Interesting that the left was not in the least bit concerned about changing hearts and minds when the courts imposed legalized abortion and homosexual marriage on us.
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It is obvious. The VERY best way to change hearts and minds is to make it illegal so you don’t have to discuss it and so you can throw people in jail or fine them heavily when they violate the law.

NOT
 
sallybutler said:
It is obvious. The VERY best way to change hearts and minds is to make it illegal so you don’t have to discuss it and so you can throw people in jail or fine them heavily when they violate the law.

NOT
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You claimed we needed to change hearts and minds so I ask again-how does empowering those who support abortion help change hearts and minds?
 
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