Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message

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JonNC said:
I have not. Everything I have I have worked for.
I have received no special privilege or advantage.
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Every time a better-qualified minority was denied a job, housing or education (and the examples of this are legion), the minority community lost and the majority community benefited. In this way every person in the majority community benefited from what was essentially injustice to minority citizens in the US.

This is not a hard concept to understand and, as noted, the effects of discrimination in the US continue to harm people within the minority community. It is not q question of guilt or innocence or if anyone worked or did not work for what he or she has. It is a simple economic and societal fact.

So, the ‘special privilege or advantage’ enjoyed by the majority community as a whole was the effect of discriminatory acts against minorities. That’s not difficult to understand.
 
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JonNC said:
For it to be systemic, it must be built into the system. It must be codified, the required or expected way for the people in the system to act.
If it is just the way a particular individual acts within the system, that doesn’t make it systemic.
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If there a a 6’ height requirement for security guards (there once was one!) perhaps that would be systemic racism. There’s no reason for guards to be that tall and the height requirement surely would have different effects on different races. ‘Disparate impact’ is a well-settled component of discrimination law and a symptom of systemic racism.
 
JonNC said:
How about this one.
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Also interesting.

But, he’s not arguing that there isn’t systemic racism. He’s arguing for Black accountability and not letting systemic racism be an excuse for Black people to not try to excel.
LeafByNiggle said:
Dualing videos are boring. I wish everyone would just state their case themselves.
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Occasionally it’s nice to hear/see other opinions and not just the bloviation of random internet people.
Nepperhan said:
So, the ‘special privilege or advantage’ enjoyed by the majority community as a whole was the effect of discriminatory acts against minorities. That’s not a difficult concept.
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No, it’s a difficult and uncomfortable concept.

Heck, my success is the result of preparation, good luck, other people, and random events. Maybe it’s also a factor that I wasn’t competing fully against people of color, who were being held back.

That’s uncomfortable to acknowledge for some people.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
It is easy to argue a point when you are allowed to give your opponent’s view in addition to your own. Of course in this case your opponent would disagree with your statement of their meaning.
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“My” statement of the meaning is that it means what it says. This was my argument: the actual comment is reasonable, even commendable, so it is reinterpreted to mean something that is not.
In this case the intended “dog whistle” message is that “Defend Western Civilization” really means “Defend White Supremacy”.
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Yes, the perfect example that makes my point. “Defending western civilization” is not a concept that can be challenged head on, at least not yet, so it is equated with another concept that is easily condemned, exactly as I said in my previous post: “what was said was “A” (good), what was meant was really “B” (bad)” where A is “defend western civilization” and B is “defend white supremacy”.
And what specific actions was he objecting to? The removal of statues to, not western civilization in general, but a very specific subset of western civilization.
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You may feel justified in inventing your own meaning for the words that were spoken, but you clearly recognize the inappropriateness of inventing your own words, which is why you only imply Trump was referring to the removal of Confederate statues. Not surprising as there is not a single word in his speech that suggests this.

Here are some actual comments. You are welcome to extract from his speech anything you think supports your insinuation. All we are likely to hear is more dog whistling - “Yes, he said A, but he really meant B.”

I am here as your president to proclaim before the country and before the world, this monument [Rushmore] will never be desecrated…

Angry mobs are trying to tear down statues of our founders, deface our most sacred memorials…

To make this possible, they are determined to tear down every statue, symbol, and memory of our national heritage.

That is why I am deploying federal law enforcement to protect our monuments…

Under the executive order I signed last week pertaining to the Veterans Memorial Preservation Memorial and Recognition Act and other laws, people who damage or deface federal statues or monuments will get a minimum of 10 years in prison…

They will never forget the destruction of statues and monuments to George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, abolitionists and many others.

Do you consider our founders to be part of that “subset of western civilization” who’s objective was to “defend white supremacy?”
 
Nepperhan said:
Every time a better-qualified minority was denied a job, housing or education (and the examples of this are legion), the minority community lost and the majority community benefited.
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So are you saying that Jon does not deserve what he has achieved, that it somehow was all because of racism? Your vague hypothetical scenario is meaningless. If you have a concrete example of such an event, like Jon has provided, please share.
 
MikeInVA said:
So are you saying that Jon does not deserve what he has achieved, that it somehow was all because of racism?
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No, did I say that? What I said is that he should not fool himself – he may be a minority for all I know. I said nothing about who deserves what.

My vague hypothetical is meaningless? consider this – I have been told that many folks in WV had never even seen a minority so how did they benefit from racial discrimination? Think of Chuck Yeager – he was a high school grad at the beginning of WWII and went on to become an Air Force general. That path was generally not open to minorities. So Yeager sent home part of an officer’s pay to WV. His community benefited from a restricted career path for non-community members without ever setting eyes on whomever had been restricted. After all, there is evidence that some very good black pilot trainees at Tuskeegee were denied wings while less talented white trainees went on to become officers.
 
Nepperhan said:
That path was generally not open to minorities.
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The path to general is generally not open to most officers. In the Air Force, the path to general also is usually not open to those who do not wear pilot or navigator wings. We have had non-white generals in the Army and Air Force for more than a generation. You hypothetical example fails again.
 
Nepperhan said:
Think of Chuck Yeager – he was a high school grad at the beginning of WWII and went on to become an Air Force general. That path was generally not open to minorities.
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It is significant that you have to go so far back in our history (WWII) to find examples of racism. If racism really is culturally systemic you should at least be able to find an example from this century.
 
MikeInVA said:
The path to general is generally not open to most officers. In the Air Force, the path to general also is usually not open to those who do not wear pilot or navigator wings. We have had non-white generals in the Army and Air Force for more than a generation. You hypothetical example fails again.
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Actually, what I posted is not a hypothetical – it is an explanation. The ranks of officers in WWII were generally not open to minority candidates, despite some contradictory examples. For a generation there have been non-white generals? For a generation we have had continuing problems in the military as to discrimination in minority advancement.

What needs to be understood is that racial discrimination hampered the entire minority community. This unfair discrimination benefited each person in the US who was not a member of that community. Now, one can quibble about various hypotheticals but the fact as to economics are impossible to ignore.

www.nytimes.com

African-Americans Are Highly Visible in the Military, but Almost Invisible at the Top (Published 2020)

Seventy-five years after integration, the military’s upper echelons remain the domain of white men.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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A number of African Americans join the service to escape the communities they live in.

How about those standing up for the Democrats inform us as to why these communities have not been improved in the first place over 55 years? They run the communities in the first place.

Same ol’ same ol’; talking of some tangent instead of the real issues at stake.
 
Nepperhan said:
For a generation we have had continuing problems in the military as to discrimination in minority advancement.
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Maybe you could discus this with Colin Powell?
Nepperhan said:
What needs to be understood is that racial discrimination hampered the entire minority community.
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Sorry, this just sounds like the butterfly wings flapping that caused a hurricane theory. It’s easy to make sweeping comments about communities, but when you look at individuals the story isn’t as clear. I have a friend whose grandfather was born as a slave in Alabama, his dad had a 6th grade education and worked in a factory his whole life, but my friend graduated from West Point and lives in a much nicer house than I do. He earned his position in life through his hard work, and is an example that racism and poverty can’t stop determined people.
 
Nepperhan said:
Every time a better-qualified minority was denied a job, housing or education (and the examples of this are legion), the minority community lost and the majority community benefited.
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An individual may have benefited, but I did not. That never happened in my case.
Group guilt, guilt by association, are not valid accusations, and no one should submit to them or be made to feel guilty for them.

I’m not guilty of the sins of slavery, Jim Crow or racism generally, but for those who think I and others of European origin are, I present this as evidence of innocence:

http://walterewilliams.com/WalterWilliamsAmnestyProclamation.pdf
 
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JonNC said:
An individual may have benefited, but I did not. That never happened in my case.
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If your group was not subject to the discrimination, you benefited. Don’t fool yourself. Your statements of achieving everything on your own may be accurate but no one starts out with a blank slate. Not in life and not after education and training.

No one is accusing you of being guilty of anything – you are personalizing the discussion far too much.
 
PaulinVA said:
‘Only African American in the Room:’ Next Air Force Chief of Staff Speaks Out…
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This is a disappointing comment, especially from a general officer, and certainly blurs the distinction between what such an officer (especially) may do and what he ought to do. Did he experience discrimination during his career? Given that he’s been in the military for 35-40 years, one would think so. Given also that the military is the most thoroughly integrated organization - and the first to become so - his words (as the Times presented them) are unhelpful. People concerned with divisive culture war messages should probably not deliver their own.

What his comment implies here is that racism is alive and well in the military today. Do I believe this is so? No, but in a time when truth is whatever one chooses to believe (see: dog whistle) it is impossible to refute. One thing is sure: the perception will never change as long it is fostered and nurtured like this.
 
Ender said:
One thing is sure: the perception will never change as long it is fostered and nurtured like this.
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I agree. There is no systemic racism in the United States. There are, however, racist individuals - some hold views that look down on others, and many more hold views that other people look down on them (or others).
 
MikeInVA said:
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Ender:
One thing is sure: the perception will never change as long it is fostered and nurtured like this.
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I agree. There is no systemic racism in the United States. There are, however, racist individuals - some hold views that look down on others, and many more hold views that other people look down on them (or others).
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Ignoring a problem is not an effective method to solving it.
 
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