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Sarcelle
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It is hardly a foregone conclusion. Voting for a third party candidate does not mean Hillary will necessarily win.
This is just your opinion. You are free to post it but I am also free to disagree with it.
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This is just your opinion. You are free to post it but I am also free to disagree with it.
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Sarcelle
Guest
They can say all they want about us embracing the culture of death by voting third party but we can ignore it and vote third party anyway.
I will not be bullied into voting for Trump or Hillary.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Yeah, but calling us who vote third party as effectively voting for Hillary and embracing the culture of death as a result is not discussion. It’s shaming which is a bullying tactic.
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zz912
Guest
I absolutely agree with your view and principle here. That’s why I voted for Romney in 2012. He wasn’t perfect, but he was certainly better than Obama, who no faithful Catholic could vote for.
But in this election, Donald Trump has claimed to be pro-life, but he’s had zero evidence for this assertion, and every utterance he makes is error-filled and harms the prolife movement. Anything he attempted on the prolife arena (if he even attempted anything, which is doubtful) would be wrong because he doesn’t even believe what he’s saying.
I won’t vote for him. I certainly won’t vote for Hillary, as no faithful Catholic can do so. I’ll find a prolife 3rd party candidate. The GOP needs to learn the lesson that nominating prochoice NY democrats will lose my vote. If only Democratic catholics would teach their party the same lesson.
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estesbob
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Shaming??? Have we been transported to a college campus???
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Dem catholics won’t, though. They have proved that time and again. Leaving the field to the pro-abortionists by neglecting to vote against them is not a good strategy.
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Ghosty
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Giving the Republican Party to pro-choicers by neglecting to vote against them seems to be a much more dangerous and short-sighted move. The Democratic Party will always be pro-choice, but the Republican Party shouldn’t follow suit.
A vote for Trump is not a step back from Hillary’s viewpoint, it is a step towards it. It isn’t throwing up a firewall against the culture of death, it’s ceding ground. A Trump presidency won’t reverse the abortion laws in this country, laws he himself supports. It will, however, show that the pro-life stance can be safely ignored by the Republican Party in the future.
Pro-lifers supporting Trump effectively neuters the pro-life stance politically. If all a Republican has to do to get the pro-life vote is be slightly less pro-abortion than the Democrat, then that is all we should expect from here on out.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
And thank you for sharing your opinion and acknowledging it as such.
I disagree. A vote is a powerful statement even when it is in abstention. It is something that must be earned. The Culture of Death, by the way, is ubiquitous. So ubiquitous that it is now the law since 1973. But it comes in many many forms from racism to torture to rugged individualism that leaves children without food or healthcare. We do live in the greatest country in the world but it has systematic problems. That is why we should perhaps be less concerned about where our vote goes (or stays in our pocket) and more concerned about what we actually do to support life on a daily basis.
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Leo2014
Guest
Please don’t take this as an insult…And thank you for sharing your opinion and acknowledging it as such.
I disagree. A vote is a powerful statement even when it is in abstention. It is something that must be earned. The Culture of Death, by the way, is ubiquitous. So ubiquitous that it is now the law since 1973. But it comes in many many forms from racism to torture to rugged individualism that leaves children without food or healthcare. We do live in the greatest country in the world but it has systematic problems. That is why we should perhaps be less concerned about where our vote goes (or stays in our pocket) and more concerned about what we actually do to support life on a daily basis.
But, if you remember from Civics class, voting is a privilege. You have obviously never lived (don’t worry, neither have I) in a society that denies you the fundamental liberty to have your voice heard. We have all seen movies about the challenges encountered by Black Americans during the Civil Rights movement and their efforts to have the ability to vote. Hence, you should be compelled to vote.
In regards to moral issue:
The reality is that as Christians, we have done a very poor job of propagating our values. The Pro-Life movement is on more unstable ground than when Roe V. Wade was introduce more than forty three years ago! Please don’t blame that one on “liberals”. Since that time, an entire amendment has been introduced, look at how our society embraces homosexuality, a topic that was not even discussed forty three years ago.
The problem I see with single issue voters is that they are not even effective in executing their one stance. Yet, they blame everyone else for the outcome that is not in their favor. We need to remember that we are not only voting for one item during an election.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
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estesbob
Guest
I would rather elect Candidates who will help limit abortion than make a statement.And thank you for sharing your opinion and acknowledging it as such.
I disagree. A vote is a powerful statement even when it is in abstention. It is something that must be earned. The Culture of Death, by the way, is ubiquitous. So ubiquitous that it is now the law since 1973. But it comes in many many forms from racism to torture to rugged individualism that leaves children without food or healthcare. We do live in the greatest country in the world but it has systematic problems. That is why we should perhaps be less concerned about where our vote goes (or stays in our pocket) and more concerned about what we actually do to support life on a daily basis.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Perhaps. But if Trump is telling the truth about wanting to return the issue to the states, that would be a return to pre-Roe. The only way that could happen is with appointments to the Supreme Court. Trump has said he will name his “pool” of candidates for that.
Not sure what more a person would want, particularly given that Hillary Clinton is not only the most pro-abortion candidate ever, but wants you to change your religion to accommodate it as well.
That does not bode well for the Church in America.
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livnlern
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Yes, you’re free to disagree with me. It’s great to live in a country that has freedom of speech isn’t it? That’s why we need to do all we can to fight against policies and groups that want to limit our freedoms, including religious freedoms. Hillary was part of the group that’s trying to take away those freedoms and we have to do all we can to stop her. Voting for a third party gives that much more edge to Hillary since her side will vote as a block.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
They want incest and rape which is not likely and for sure lotm isn’t going to change. Unrealistic demands. That accounts for 3-5% and leaves a mitigated 95%. I get it Trump talks crazy, but thats nothing to sneeze at. Just saying, you make up your own mind. We don’t want to be called a bully like Bob. 
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Ghosty
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Appointments to the Supreme Court aren’t going to change the law of the land. Passing laws of the land will, and that requires a moral stance against abortion.
Trump has said outright that he approves of abortion, and even his “pro-life” turn excludes rape, incest, and health of the mother. If I were to say I am against abortion except in those circumstances, you would call me pro-choice, not pro-life with exceptions.
That is not the viewpoint of someone that will work against the culture of death, that is the stance of someone who embraces it. A vote for Trump is not a step away from Hillary, it is a step towards her. It is a step away from the Republican Platform, which Trump openly rejects incidently, and that is the bigger danger here.
There will be Presidents after Trump. There will be Supreme Court appointments after Trump. Will there be a pro-life Republican Party after Trump? Not if he gets the pro-life vote, in my estimation. Clearly a pro-life stance is an unnecessary burden if the pro-life vote can be taken with only minimal gestures. The relative value of the pro-life voting bloc is diminished to the point irrelevancy if it will simply jump to whatever happens to be the “lesser evil”.
There must be a line, a requirement to get our vote, or we are meaningless in the political sphere. That is the real power and duty of our vote, to shape political movements and force politicians to support just causes. If we don’t utilize our vote to shape politics for the good, and if we simply go along with whatever the politicians offer up, then we don’t deserve the vote.
You say that a vote for a third party candidate is a vote for Hillary. I would argue that a vote for Trump is a vote for a pro-choice Republican Party. The Republicans are now walking down the same road the Democrats once did; we can make a stand to stop it, or lament how “the party left us” in twenty years.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
And wants to ban it? The truth is the pro-life campaign isn’t going anywhere and they have six months and a long time to clarify this while consolidating their party. The delusion first off is that the party is going anywhere. Clearly thats not true. Republicans made a mess granted and they have a ton of work to do now. But its far from a lost cause. The abortion platform, your not getting incest-rape nor a change in life of the mother. Not gonna happen.
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Ghosty
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Trump has not said he wants to ban abortion, he has said the opposite. He has said the Party platform should change; whether he can do it or not the fact remains that this is his stance, and a vote for him simply moves the Party further in that direction rather than away from it. His kind of talk should be a red flag, and a line should be drawn.
A vote for Trump is not a stand for life, it isn’t taking a stand at all. It is simply taking a ride in the wrong direction.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Of course Hillary is not “a (sic) avid supporter of abortion.” That’s rhetoric and I truly believe you know it. Hillary believe in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade, just like most of the citizens in our country.Are we now questioning peoples intellect before you make any point? I disagree completely with you so lets be clear and get to the point, The only rhetoric I have heard is in regards to Trump who in fact killed no-one.
Are you saying its not a fact the abortion industry kills 1-million a year and Hillary is not a avid supporter of abortion and PP and abortion on demand. Thats not rhetoric its factually documented.
I don’t believe there’s an “abortion industry.” Again, that’s rhetoric. I do believe that there are a host of OB/GYN issues that all women may or may not face during the course of their lives and that sometimes abortion (both spontaneous and planned) is one of the issues a woman may face in the course of her life. The industry that addresses these issues is called the healthcare industry.
The anti-choice movement is a paper tiger. I honestly don’t believe that most members of the movement believe that every 5th woman they meet is a cold-blooded killer. If the movement really believed what they say they believe, they would want those women prosecuted and punished.
Now, maybe you are someone who believes women who have abortions should spend the rest of their days in prison or go to the electric chair. If so, congratulations on your logical coherence. If not, you - like most in the “formal movement” - have no chops to back up the rhetoric.
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Little_Sheep
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Fascinating, considering the fact that in post #103 of this thread you were happy you were to tell people: “The Presbyterian church is very accepting of abortion.”
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GaryTaylor
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So you say. Convince me, I don’t find that point just to start at all compelling.
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