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zsiga
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Typical evasion. Why don’t you answer the question? Would you prefer to exist in a persistent vegetative state?
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Typical of what? People who value human life regardless of their condition? Guilty.
I prefer to place life and death in the hands of God. I prefer to not view humans as mere fingernails or clusters of cells.
Too often in history, we have seen groups of humans deemed less than human and therefore expendable. Abortion is no different.
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zsiga
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And the evasion continues. I asked about YOUR personal preference about YOUR possible life. You could easily say that your preference would be hooked to a machine, having no thoughts, no pleasures, because that is “life”, better than lack of existence. Why don’t you? Maybe you are not sure?
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FrankFletcher
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As Catholics, we don’t believe the purpose of our lives is pleasure. I believe Jon’s preference isn’t to be hooked to a machine but instead to give himself over to God’s plan for him.JonNC:
And the evasion continues. I asked about YOUR personal preference about YOUR possible life. You could easily say that your preference would be hooked to a machine, having no thoughts, no pleasures, because that is “life”, better than lack of existence. Why don’t you? Maybe you are not sure?
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Annie
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You paragraph ended rather abruptly here.
Anyway, a woman can choose to kill her unborn baby up until the day of birth, well after the brain has formed sufficiently to meet your standard for being protected from being killed. Do you think we should outlaw abortion after that point in pregnancy?
Your criteria for refraining from killing another human is that they have the amount of brain power you think they should have in order to receive that protection.
You think that those in PVS can be killed (as you mention below the post I am responding to), despite the fact that some emerge from that state, and despite the fact that some are not in that type of state at all but are suffering from Locked IN syndrome, you think it is all right to kill them.
Personally, I would prefer not to be in a PVS, just as I would prefer not to have any number of sufferings, but if I had to be, I would prefer not to be killed.
And I would certainly prefer not to be killed if I only seemed to be in a PVS but was actually in a LIS.
And if I were a medical professional, I would prefer not to kill my patients.
The point of the kneecap is that while still in the womb humans are developing. There was once a time when you had an insufficiently developed brain, but that was merely a function of your age, not the type of being you are. You were going to have a brain and all that goes with it, which is why you were a member of your species.
However, a trimmed fingernail is not a living organism, while an unborn human is from conception onwards.
And I gave it. It is my personal preference as stated. I leave it in God’s hands. I am not so quick as you to take the lives of others, to minimize human life. You may not like the answer, but there it is.
Why should I answer the question based on your premise of what life is? We clearly have different views about life.
But for discussion’s sake, I would say that I would not wish for my wife and family to be burdened. I would declare such in a living will.
I propose we do the say with the soon to be born human child. Allow them to decide.
Free will for the Christian is influenced by faith and the Holy Spirit in our lives. That’s not hiding, necessarily, but if you want to accuse Frank, a Catholic, and me, a Lutheran, of hiding behind God’s back (molding our free will to His commands for us), so be it.Don’t try to hide behind God’s back.
You are supposed to have free will, able to make decisions. And the question is about YOUR preferences.
And here you state that you believe someone has the “right” to impose that death on a soon to be born human child, denying that child to opportunity to make any decisions for themselves.
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Victoria33
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Mark Levine said Trump did a good job with the vaccine. Check his twitter.
Yes, Levine might be biased but early on, he certainly was not pro-Trump and Levine is pretty sharp.
Yes, Levine might be biased but early on, he certainly was not pro-Trump and Levine is pretty sharp.
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FrankFletcher
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You’ve come to a Catholic forum to mock Catholics and other Christians. I think there’s a word for that.FrankFletcher:
Don’t try to hide behind God’s back.
If one is in a persistent vegetative state, there is nothing that would make life worth living. No prayer to God, no attendance to Church, no partaking in the Eucharist, no family to be comforted by, no thoughts, just “nonexistence”, except that some machine maintains your vegetative bodily functions. You consume valuable resources, which could help others to get healthy again, to return to their families, to continue to worship God, to attend Church services. What is your preference? That is the dilemma.
A meaningless, vegetative, parasitic existence as opposed to an end in this world, and getting to heaven according to your beliefs. How come that the answer is not self-evident?
As a matter of fact I heard many Christians to say that they can hardly wait to get to heaven - which, of course means that they can hardly wait to DIE.
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FrankFletcher
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Ya might want to cut out the lines likes “don’t hide behind God’s back” with a laugh emoji if you don’t want people to think you’re trolling.
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Petra202
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If this is your “logic” then being a woman is an unhealthy state! Monthly water weigh gain, cramps, headaches, mood swings! Then all women should have hysterectomies at say age 10??? Let’s get rid of all ugly parts of nature!!!
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tomarin
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And for those of us who admire the fairer sex, that’s just blasphemy.
Curious. That’s what you’ve done all through our dialogue. The example of a comparison of a fingernail clipping is telling.
Really? I’ll speak as a Lutheran here. God’s will is clearly known in scripture. Examples:
If God knows us in the womb, before we are in the womb, how is that like a mere fingernail clipping or a cluster of cells, or how did you phrase it, an unhealthy condition?
But just as importantly, the science proves that a fetus is indeed an alive human being. It has DNA, cells are growing and multiplying. Typically, brain function and heartbeat begins to appear at the fifth week.
When did I ask society anything?
How is that different than sucking the brain out of a fetus?
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Annie
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That is the “cut-off” point in your opinion. In my opinion, the cut-off point should be at a different point–in fact, after conception there should be no “cut-on” point at all.
Why is your opinion better than my opinion? Why is your opinion better than that of the person who believes that self-sufficiency should be the cut-off point and therefore abortion should be permitted until birth, when the baby is self-sufficient enough to be handed off to someone else?
No. A zygote is a living member of the species to which it belongs. An existing human zygote is a human: it is of the human species, it has its own DNA separate from the mother’s, and it is taking in nourishment and growing, signs of life and humanity.
What do the proper circumstances have to do with it? Pretty much every organism will die if not in the environment proper for it.
Nor is this technology; it is nature and the way things have worked for thousands of years.
We can clone, therefore it is all right to kill young tiny humans?
A skin cell or a liver cell that is not attached to and maintained by the organism which made it is a dying or dead cell.
If you catch it early enough, yes, you can transfer the DNA into a living cell which will then maintain the DNA.
However, this has no relation to the normal mammalian process of conception and birth.
So we shouldn’t kill people just because they are in a PVS state?Annie:
I said nothing about “getting killed”. I only talked about the criteria of being considered a human being, nothing else.
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Annie
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I am very sorry that your wife and you had to go through such difficulties.
However, hard cases make bad law–we cannot base societal decisions on unusual circumstances. For most women, pregnancies indicate that their bodies are functioning properly and so pregnancy is not an unhealthy state.
Your wife had a separately existing unhealthy state and thus her pregnancies were difficult and caused her and you pain.
However, hard cases make bad law–we cannot base societal decisions on unusual circumstances. For most women, pregnancies indicate that their bodies are functioning properly and so pregnancy is not an unhealthy state.
Your wife had a separately existing unhealthy state and thus her pregnancies were difficult and caused her and you pain.
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Annie
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Yes, but the human zygote has no brain because it has not yet developed, this is the natural process of development not an interruption as losing your brain power in later life is. Your yourself went through this period as did we all, and as would any clones people might put together.
The normal process is completely relevant. Humans lived for more generations without mod cons than with; most of us could figure out how to do so again if no one killed us.
Not really.
First let me say that by kill I mean to take a direct action designed to end a human’s life, so that they die as the result of the action rather than of their illness or injuries.
Killing would include any form of what we would automatically consider murder, such as shooting someone, or withdrawal of food and/or water such that death would result from starvation or dehydration.
Withdrawal of medical life support systems would not be killing; it would be allowing the natural process of death to proceed.
So if you think that a person suffering from PVS can be killed, that relates to what you are expressing as your philosophy above.
If not, then why the difference?
There is a way to avoid such an “unhealthy” situation.
With lung cancer, a clearly unhealthy condition, one can help to avoid it by not smoking. It isn’t foolproof, but it is significant.
With pregnancy, which you unscientifically claim to be unhealthy, the foolproof way to avoid it is to abstain from that which causes pregnancy. And bonus points, abstinence completely eliminates the possibility of executing a soon to be born human being.
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CradleRC58
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"As KTSM previously reported, El Paso has ten mobile morgues set up at the Medical Examiner’s office for the overflow of bodies awaiting autopsy. "
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