Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

[bibcat]

Are Turkey pro-ISIS - or maybe they do not read the world news.

Seemingly, the jet was flying in Syrian airspace, however hypothetically even if it wasn’t - I’d assume the Turks knew that they weren’t the target, so are they pro-ISIS sympathisers and/or don’t care if ISIS is annihilated or not?

After a v. quick google search:

ibtimes.com/kurds-call-turkeys-president-isis-collaborator-islamic-state-turkeys-doorstep-foments-2022076
*
Kurds Call Turkey’s President ‘ISIS Collaborator’: Islamic State On Turkey’s Doorstep Foments Kurdish Tensions At Home

On Wednesday, Mafzan, along with hundreds of other activists and Kurdish civilians, returned to Suruc Square, holding a sign that read “The Turkish Government Is Pro-ISIS,” accusing Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of turning a blind eye, and covertly encouraging ISIS attacks on Kurds.*

Ah, Pops, if you weren’t parroting Putin on all this, I’d be so disappointed. The boneheads flying that Su-24 were warned repeatedly by Turkish forces to leave Turkish airspace and refused to do so. As a result, Turkish F-16s used the Su-24 for target practice. Putin (aka Mussolini version 2.0) can yell and scream all he wants, but he can’t lay a finger on Turkey–a full NATO member. If he does, Turkey screams “Article 5” and Putin gets the spanking of his life. A win-win. The only way to handle a bully is to stand up to it. Turkey has done so.

 

[Vouthon]

Ah, Pops, if you weren’t parroting Putin on all this, I’d be so disappointed. The boneheads flying that Su-24 were warned repeatedly by Turkish forces to leave Turkish airspace and refused to do so. As a result, Turkish F-16s used the Su-24 for target practice. Putin (aka Mussolini version 2.0) can yell and scream all he wants, but he can’t lay a finger on Turkey–a full NATO member. If he does, Turkey screams “Article 5” and Putin gets the spanking of his life. A win-win. The only way to handle a bully is to stand up to it. Turkey has done so.

For all my loathing of Erdogan (whom I view as a Putin wannabe) and strong mistrust of the present government in Ankara, I have to agree.

 

[pepipop]

Ah, Pops, if you weren’t parroting Putin on all this, I’d be so disappointed. The boneheads flying that Su-24 were warned repeatedly by Turkish forces to leave Turkish airspace and refused to do so. As a result, Turkish F-16s used the Su-24 for target practice. Putin (aka Mussolini version 2.0) can yell and scream all he wants, but he can’t lay a finger on Turkey–a full NATO member. If he does, Turkey screams “Article 5” and Putin gets the spanking of his life. A win-win. The only way to handle a bully is to stand up to it. Turkey has done so.

I don’t parrot anyone. Any person with half a head could work it out.

But what is Turkey’s problem? Do they not want ‘help’ in getting rid of ISIS, fighting right on their doorstep? Any sane country would. Mind you that’s IF they’re actually worried about ISIS in the first place - a group that has declared war on the West, after recently killing over 200 Russian and also French civilians.

Turkey knew what Russia was doing - fighting terrorism, their actions were unconscionable, especially when everyone and their mother knows why Russia were there in the first place.

 

[oliver927]

So.

So… it goes to show that, if true, Russia knew Turkey would retaliate if their airspace continued to be violated and decided to not heed the warning.

Is Russia not capable of striking at ISIS within Syria without going into Turkey?

 

[pepipop]

So… it goes to show that, if true, Russia knew Turkey would retaliate if their airspace continued to be violated and decided to not heed the warning.

Is Russia not capable of striking at ISIS within Syria without going into Turkey?

I think the path was accidental, here’s one map of what ‘Turkey’ said occurred, hence the Russian jet had flown over Syria and was turning back in.

However IMO that’s not the point. ISIS are fighting on Turkey’s doorstep. Allegedly, most ISIS recruits travel through Turkey to Syria and the EU influx of refugees come through Turkey too.

The world knows that Russia is fighting ISIS, as is France - an international terrorist threat.

Do Turkey not want help in getting rid of ISIS. They also knew Russia were not there to hit Turkey.

I find their actions diabolical.

 

[DaveBj]

foxnews.com/world/2015/11/24/turkish-f-16-shoots-down-russian-fighter-jet-near-syria-border/?intcmp=hpbt1

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that Turkey’s decision to shoot down a Russian warplane near Turkey’s border with Syria is a “stab in the back” and it would have “significant consequences” for its relations with Turkey, as NATO called an emergency meeting over the incident.

Putin said the Russian Sukhoi-24 jet was shot by a missile from a Turkish jet over Syria about just over a half-mile away from the Turkish border, which he described as a “stab in the back by the terrorists’ accomplices.” Putin was meeting with Jordanian King Abdullah II in Sochi. Prior to the meeting, The New York Times said Putin was “speaking slowly and clearly angry.”

Technically speaking, it could be said that Turkey was in the right, if the above-posted map is correct (and that’s a big “if”). However, whoever it was on the Turkish side that made the actual decision to shoot the plane down is obviously not the sharpest tool in the drawer, when it comes to seeing the big picture.

 

[pepipop]

foxnews.com/world/2015/11/24/turkish-f-16-shoots-down-russian-fighter-jet-near-syria-border/?intcmp=hpbt1

Technically speaking, it could be said that Turkey was in the right, if the above-posted map is correct (and that’s a big “if”). However, whoever it was on the Turkish side that made the actual decision to shoot the plane down is obviously not the sharpest tool in the drawer, when it comes to seeing the big picture.

A full 10-15 seconds worth of airspace violation, to kill two men doing Turkey no harm, just fighting terrorism.

Turkey must have been fully armed and ready too - if that map is correct.

 

[1crazybusydad]

CNN is reporting that the shooters are Turkish rebels, so it may not be a Turkish military action. The video from the shooters’ pov has them yelling “let’s take them alive” and “Allahu Akbar.”

Edit: sorry, not from the shooters’ pov. The video-takers. I see online that a Turkish F-16 shot the plane down, so the video-takers may be unrelated and hoping to capitalize on the downing of the plane.

 

[Path_Finder]

It sounds like too, the Russians may have been in the area of Turkmen tribes who apparently have been bombed.

usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/11/24/a-look-at-the-turkmen-community-in-syria

Again, if Russian warplanes used Turkish airspace to get to a position to bomb a Turkic people, this would be a sensitive situation to say the least: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmens

Especially, if ISIS was nowhere near by.

People may say Assad invited the Russians in but there is also a law against war crimes should any of these bombings fall into that category. I don’t know but apparently using barrel bombs by the regime would seem to fall into that category.

 

[Path_Finder]

CNN is reporting that the shooters are Turkish rebels, so it may not be a Turkish military action. The video from the shooters’ pov has them yelling “let’s take them alive” and “Allahu Akbar.”

Maybe this is the story.

 

[1crazybusydad]

Maybe this is the story.

I was reporting on the first thing I saw on CNN in my hotel lobby…before coffee. It looks like the videographers may be different/unrelated to the actual shooter.

 

[pepipop]

CNN is reporting that the shooters are Turkish rebels, so it may not be a Turkish military action. The video from the shooters’ pov has them yelling “let’s take them alive” and “Allahu Akbar.”

Edit: sorry, not from the shooters’ pov. The video-takers. I see online that a Turkish F-16 shot the plane down, so the video-takers may be unrelated and hoping to capitalize on the downing of the plane.

Unfortunately, yes the pilots parachuted out of the jet and the rebels shot them on the way down, may they RIP.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t parrot anyone. Any person with half a head could work it out.

But what is Turkey’s problem? Do they not want ‘help’ in getting rid of ISIS, fighting right on their doorstep? Any sane country would. Mind you that’s IF they’re actually worried about ISIS in the first place - a group that has declared war on the West, after recently killing over 200 Russian and also French civilians.

Turkey knew what Russia was doing - fighting terrorism, their actions were unconscionable, especially when everyone and their mother knows why Russia were there in the first place.

Turkey’s concerns are probably the following in order of importance:

1. Iranian imperialist ambitions.
2. Kurdish separatism
3. Russian imperialist ambitions.
4. ISIS.

Turkey is an Islamic state that used to be a secular state. Turkey undoubtedly knows how weak ISIS is as a potential adversary, and doesn’t find its Islamism all that offensive.

Turkey probably figures the Iran/Russian axis is far more dangerous to Turkey than ISIS is. And it’s probably true.

Not that I’m an admirer of Turkey. Far from it.

 

[Path_Finder]

The rescue search helicopter was shot down too??

I hate this news but this is also the result “if” the Russians are targeting others besides Al Nusra Al Qaeda and ISIS.

 

[7_Sorrows]

so what will Russia do now?

 

[pepipop]

Turkey’s concerns are probably the following in order of importance:

1. Iranian imperialist ambitions.
2. Kurdish separatism
3. Russian imperialist ambitions.
4. ISIS.

Turkey is an Islamic state that used to be a secular state. Turkey undoubtedly knows how weak ISIS is as a potential adversary, and doesn’t find its Islamism all that offensive.

Turkey probably figures the Iran/Russian axis is far more dangerous to Turkey than ISIS is. And it’s probably true.

Not that I’m an admirer of Turkey. Far from it.

Possibly they do think the above, but shooting down a Russian jet fighting ISIS, in Syria, for a 10-15 sec violation of their airspace, hasn’t solved any of the above concerns and will no doubt make it worse, in the longer term.

It would interesting to be a fly on the wall at the NATO meeting, but I doubt anything too drastic will be done/said to the press, at this time.

 

[Path_Finder]

They even say at the Syrian Human Rights Observatory something about this happening around Turkmen Mount, so no, we do not know that Russia is there to fight Terrorism versus overlooking their own interests and Russia’s new founded ally France has said similar in the past.

syriahr.com/en/2015/11/unknown-fate-for-the-russian-pilots-who-landed-in-the-turkman-mount/

And no, a ruler does not have his own right to violate human rights in his own country.

 

[pepipop]

so what will Russia do now?

Use the MO that other countries do - i.e. financially back, train and arm the Kurds to the hilt!

 

[TaurusRex]

Ah, Pops, if you weren’t parroting Putin on all this, I’d be so disappointed. The boneheads flying that Su-24 were warned repeatedly by Turkish forces to leave Turkish airspace and refused to do so. As a result, Turkish F-16s used the Su-24 for target practice. Putin (aka Mussolini version 2.0) can yell and scream all he wants, but he can’t lay a finger on Turkey–a full NATO member. If he does, Turkey screams “Article 5” and Putin gets the spanking of his life. A win-win. The only way to handle a bully is to stand up to it. Turkey has done so.

In another thread I answered a question of basically why France went to the EU instead of NATO:

Re: Nato shunned as France calls on EU to destroy Islamic State

Quote:
Originally Posted by Path_Finder showthread.php?p=13455978showthread.php?p=13455978
On the Sunday morning pundit shows, one of the guests said the reason Nato was not evoked could like have been that the USA would not have gone along in this fight.

It really is a bit like the USA is the way France use to be and France is now, a bit the way the USA was.

But it may not be that simplistic, we have carried out air strikes.

My answer was:

In my opinion it’s got something to do with not having a proper reign on the Turks.
rex

The Russian plane may have done the wrong thing, although there is a projection of the border of Turkey down into Syria which the Russian pilot may have innocently ignored;
However, Turkey has been no lamb in this conflict with ISIS …
many Kurds are Jewish and Turks and Kurds have been hostile to my knowledge.

Are we at war with radical terrorist jihadists alongside of Russia or are we now going to get behind Turkey in a war with Russia …
France has a bouncing history, think they might back Russia?

I think I heard a moment of silence in a Turkish football game was booed by the audience.

On the matter of the secularism of Turkey:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Turkey

The current Constitution of 1982 neither recognizes an official religion nor promotes any. This includes Islam, to which at least nominally more than 99% of its citizens subscribe

bbc.com/news/world-europe-20028295

Some critics have pointed to the Directorate of Religious Affairs, and question its existence in a supposedly secular state. The directorate is staffed by public officials and funded from state coffers; but it only offers services to Sunni Muslims - the majority of Turks.

…

Minorities such as Christians and Jews, non-Orthodox Alevi Muslims and non-believers do not receive any services from the directorate.

…

The Turkish Industry and Business Association (Tusiad), a leading NGO, has suggested "secularism in Turkey is different from its version in the West because the state has not distanced itself equally from all religions, beliefs and non-belief.

“The current status of the Directorate of Religious Affairs is against both secularism and the freedom of religion and conscience.”

In other words Turkish secularism is quite shaky with 99% of their population Muslim and minority religions not treated equally by the state …
wouldn’t surprise me that if EU status is ever gained by Turkey, they may become like all other Sunni Muslim nations

rex

 

[Path_Finder]

The pilots may not have been killed, these are early reports.