Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

[Brendan]

17 seconds worth off decision making.

I know nothing about jet flying, but by the map they seemed to fly over a small section of Turkish airspace that loops outward, into Syria, otherwise they’d have remained, in Syria, throughout all of their flight. Possibly, they’d forgotten about this loop, and assumed a smooth border, or maybe they didn’t expect a country fighting the exact same enemy, would to be too annoyed, if they took a 17 second, easier fly route…

Either way, I doubt in a trillion years they did it ‘on purpose’. I’d say they had a lot more on their minds than going over a small loop of Turkish airspace.

Are you honestly trying to claim that a fighter\bomber that can put a payload within 3 meters of its target, could not tell what country it was flying in??

Or that it’s pilot could not read a map enough to see a border??

Seriously?

 

[pepipop]

Read:

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/24/russia-proof-jet-syrian-airspace-turkey

The point is they are not at war with each other. When was the last time a plane was shot down violating airspace, between two countries, allegedly fighting the ‘same’ war and not at war with each other?

It was diabolical, but needless to say the Western MSM have to back it.

Fortunately, the vast majority of commenters totally disagree with the MSM biased ‘news’.

*jonsid 2m ago

Seeing the direction the Guardian’s heading in it won’t be long before we see articles condemning Russia’s brutal assault on the peace loving, multi-cultural ISIS nation.

celandicmaiden 17m ago

We now see who runs and supports Islamic paedophiles/butchers, not that there was any doubt but their duplicity is laid bare for all to see. Russia will respond, and I wish they exact every revenge.

Lesm 24 Nov 2015 20:39

That this “journo” can say that Russia has a habit of peddling misinformation and still keep a straight face, is a tribute either to his stupidity or to his mendacity.

crinklyoldgit 24 Nov 2015 20:32

I seriously doubt that the figures add up here. The warnings were give over five minutes but the flight path shows that the period of time that the aircraft was over Turkish airspace was measured in seconds. (apparently two periods of about ten seconds).
There is every reason to believe that the incident has been created in order to make a point but it seems extremely foolhardy to create tension and increase the danger in this way.

If Turkey were within it’s rights to shoot down a Russian plane that had strayed into their airspace, it doesn’t mean they should have done.

Turkish airspace or not, Russian state cynicism or not, this article is just barren pot stirring of the most pointless sort.*

 

[Vouthon]

The point is they are not at war with each other. When was the last time a plane was shot down violating airspace, between two countries, allegedly fighting the ‘same’ war and not at war with each other?

It was diabolical, but needless to say the Western MSM have to back it.

Pepi, as a law graduate, I am surprised that you apparently have little belief in the need for international law. It is not a triviality. We cannot have an entirely anarchic global system where countries are entitled to act as they please, just as we cannot do the same domestically with people’s property without causing the breakdown of society.

To you it might just be abstract regulations but to me it isn’t. To me it’s still a matter of law and order.

The Russian pilots were in the wrong.

Sure, you could validly argue that Turkey, while having every right to act as it did, could have overlooked the incursion(s) in the interest of peace and escorted the craft out of its airspace. Sure, you could validly claim that the loss of life on the part of the Russian airmen was an overreaction.

But that is only if you consider this as being a freak event, which I’m afraid it isn’t.

Russia has repeatedly violated Turkey’s airspace over a period of time and been warned endlessly to stop. It has done the same for years with the airspace of countries in Europe, except that in general it has eventually left when warned.

The fact is, Russia is acting illegally and irresponsibly on a frequent basis.

It had this coming. That is the basic truth. Actions have consequences.

 

[pepipop]

Pepi, as a law graduate, I am surprised that you apparently have little belief in the need for international law. It is not a triviality. We cannot have an entirely anarchic global system where countries are entitled to act as they please, just as we cannot do the same domestically with people’s property without causing the breakdown of society.

To you it might just be abstract regulations but to me it isn’t. To me it’s still a matter of law and order.

The Russian pilots were in the wrong.

Sure, you could validly argue that Turkey, while having every right to act as it did, could have overlooked the incursion(s) in the interest of peace and escorted the craft out of its airspace. Sure, you could validly claim that the loss of life on the part of the Russian airmen was an overreaction.

But that is only if you consider this as being a freak event, which I’m afraid it isn’t.

Russia has repeatedly violated Turkey’s airspace over a period of time and been warned endlessly to stop. It has done the same for years with the airspace of countries in Europe, except that in general it has eventually left when warned.

The fact is, Russia is acting illegally and irresponsibly on a frequent basis.

It had this coming. That is the basic truth. Actions have consequences.

I am not a law graduate, maybe you are Vouthon and I read that wrong.

However there are laws and there are laws. Turkey knew Russia weren’t in their airspace to carry out an attack on them, they are not enemies, they are supposedly friendly nations fighting the same war. Turkey knew Russia was flying back to Syria to fight a ‘joint’ enemy.

A 17 second mishap in their airspace and two men are killed. That is not moral, decent, diplomatic nor a few other 100 words, I can’t think of.

It was completely wrong and that’s my opinion. They could have escorted them out of their airspace - mind you, how they could have done that in 17 seconds, would have been very interesting to see.

 

[Vouthon]

I am not a law graduate, maybe you are Vouthon and I read that wrong.

Apologies for not making that clearer, I am a law graduate. Sorry for the lack of clarity

It was completely wrong and that’s my opinion. They could have escorted them out of their airspace - mind you, how they could have done that in 17 seconds, would have been very interesting to see.

Had this been a rare, one-off event, I might have agreed with you. But it’s not. It’s part of a clear and consistent pattern of Russia flouting established customary international law concerning airspace and the sea.

You seem to be inferring that Russia should just be entitled to engage in this kind of activity without consequences. That is not just or sustainable.

 

[tomarin]

Furthermore, I wouldn’t describe them as ‘friendly nations fighting the same enemy’ if Russia is in the pro-Assad camp and Turkey supports the rebels, whom Russia is currently bombing as a favor to Assad, some of whom may be ethnic confreres of the Turks, suspiciously far from ISIS-held territory.

 

[pepipop]

Furthermore, I wouldn’t describe them as ‘friendly nations fighting the same enemy’ if Russia is in the pro-Assad camp and Turkey supports the rebels, whom Russia is currently bombing as a favor to Assad, some of whom may be ethnic confreres of the Turks, suspiciously far from ISIS-held territory.

Russia has stated it is fighting ISIS, as has Turkey - so they’re allegedly fighting the same enemy. Russia has not stated it is NOT fighting ISIS, ever.

 

[pepipop]

Are you honestly trying to claim that a fighter\bomber that can put a payload within 3 meters of its target, could not tell what country it was flying in??

Or that it’s pilot could not read a map enough to see a border??

Seriously?

It seems to have most probably been a mistake.

Or maybe they assumed it would be ok, and knew they’d cover the airspace for the 17 seconds and that would be that. However, to think it was anything more sinister than that, is bizarre. I mean, what would they have hoped to accomplish, in that 17 seconds - I doubt they were taking timeout and playing chicken with the Turkish airforce.

 

[Vouthon]

Furthermore, I wouldn’t describe them as ‘friendly nations fighting the same enemy’ if Russia is in the pro-Assad camp and Turkey supports the rebels, whom Russia is currently bombing, some of whom may be ethnic confreres of the Turks, far from ISIS-held territory.

Latakia, the region in Syria that Russia has been bombing, is indeed nowhere near the ISIS-held territory and overwhelmingly populated by ethnic Turks.

These Turkmen are not linked in anyway to ISIS, in fact ISIS has declared them apostates from Islam and threatened their tribe with genocide, even massacring their compatriots in Iraq last year:

cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/un-isis-massacred-700-turkmen-including-women-children-elderly.

**UN: ISIS Massacred 700 Turkmen–Including Women, Children, Elderly
**

They have fought hard against ISIS, so far as I can tell.

And yet Russia is bombing these people, and violating Turkish airspace in the process of doing so. Why?

Well they have the misfortune of also being tenaciously anti-Assad, since his Arab nationalist Ba’ath Party regime suppressed their language and culture in an attempt to “Arabicize” them (I.e. forcibly make them into virtual Arabs).

Instead of pursuing ISIS, these are one group among the so-called “terrorists” that Russia has been predominantly directing its air war against.

Plus they are largely moderate Sunni Muslims and so would shout “Allah-u-Akbar” like any Islamic tribe, which I’m sure must provide great fodder for RT to present them as “terrorists” to its hapless audience.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Putin cannot be happy today because he lost a passenger plane not long ago and everyone on board died and now he has lost a fighter jet and more than likely 2 pilots plus a rescue helicopter and its pilot. He has lost a lot in the short time he has been in the fight.

 

[pepipop]

Putin cannot be happy today because he lost a passenger plane not long ago and everyone on board died and now he has lost a fighter jet and more than likely 2 pilots plus a rescue helicopter and its pilot. He has lost a lot in the short time he has been in the fight.

Very true. I hadn’t realised the rescue helicopter and pilot were taken out too. May they all RIP.

ISIS must be delighted.

 

[gilliam]

Very true. I hadn’t realised the rescue helicopter and pilot were taken out too. May they all RIP.

ISIS must be delighted.

Russia isn’t fighting ISIS

 

[TheGovenBoy]

Very true. I hadn’t realised the rescue helicopter and pilot were taken out too. May they all RIP.

ISIS must be delighted.

From what I understand, the anti-Assad or Western funded rebels are responsible for downing the helicopter. The rebels are the ones Russia is primarily fighting possibly due to their number being greater than ISIS.

 

[gilliam]

From what I understand, the anti-Assad or Western funded rebels are responsible for downing the helicopter. The rebels are the ones Russia is primarily fighting possibly due to their number being greater than ISIS.

ISIS is not a threat to Assad right now so Russia is attacking those who are a threat to Assad (which is not ISIS). It really is that simple.

 

[pepipop]

Russia isn’t fighting ISIS

Yes they are.

They asked all other countries to fight with them, at the UN, in September - no takers. So that is the ‘non-participators’ drummed up ‘think-tank’ response - so that their own respective populaces aren’t asking why aren’t they fighting ISIS with Russia.

Russia asked them all again, after Paris and at least France and Russia are now fighting together to take out ISIS.

The facts don’t add up, but then the MSM can and will say whatever their respective governments want them to. Fortunately, the majority of people don’t believe their non-verified, non-evidenced version of world events anymore, as too many of their past ‘stories’, i.e. lies have come back to bite them bigtime.

 

[pepipop]

From what I understand, the anti-Assad or Western funded rebels are responsible for downing the helicopter. The rebels are the ones Russia is primarily fighting possibly due to their number being greater than ISIS.

Most likely correct. When it’s all said and done they’re all rebels fighting in a country that’s not theirs, well aside from the Syrian rebels - that’s if there’s any left.

I’m sure ISIS is still pleased that their work is being done for them, by the other rebels.

 

[Vouthon]

Yes they are.

They asked all other countries to fight with them, at the UN, in September - no takers. So that is the ‘non-participators’ drummed up ‘think-tank’ response - so that their own respective populaces aren’t asking why aren’t they fighting ISIS with Russia.

Russia asked them all again, after Paris and at least France and Russia are now fighting together to take out ISIS.

The facts don’t add up, but then the MSM can and will say whatever their respective governments want them to. Fortunately, the majority of people don’t believe their non-verified, non-evidenced version of world events anymore, as too many of their past ‘stories’, i.e. lies have come back to bite them bigtime.

So why is Russia bombing the Turkmen in Latakia who have been massacred by ISIS and declared apostates by the would-be caliphate, rather than IS-held territory?

 

[pepipop]

So why is Russia bombing the Turkmen in Latakia who have been massacred by ISIS and declared apostles by the would-be caliphate, rather than IS-held territory?

Are they, is there evidence of same? That story only came out this PM, after Turkey blew a Russian jet out of the sky, all very fortuitous timing.

I watch all press meetings, especially with the USA, in relation to this issue - i.e. Russia is killing everybody but ISIS. When reporters ask for definitive evidence the answer’s always the same, it’s confidential.

So no evidence, then it didnae happen. Also, as a law graduate, Vouthon, how many court cases could you win without any evidence, and only hearsay to back your case.

 

[Vouthon]

Here is the unpalatable truth:

vox.com/2015/11/24/9792830/russia-plane-turkmen

**Their location has brought them into conflict with the Assad regime, ISIS, and even the Western-backed Kurdish rebels (whom Turkey sees as a threat given its longstanding struggle with its own Kurdish population). Today, the Syrian Turkmen Brigades **— the dominant Turkmen military faction — boast as many as 10,000 fighters, per the BBC, though the real number could be much lower.The Turkmen role in the conflict has put them directly in Russia’s crosshairs. The Russians, contrary to their stated goal of fighting ISIS, have directed most of their military efforts to helping Assad’s forces fight rebels. The Turkmen have clashed repeatedly with Assad and his allies in the north — which led to Russian planes targeting Turkmen militants last week.

Turkey was not happy, and called in the Russian ambassador to register its disapproval. “It was stressed that the Russian side’s actions were not a fight against terror, but they bombed civilian Turkmen villages and this could lead to serious consequences,” the Turkish foreign ministry said in a description of the meeting provided to Reuters.

And indeed, something “serious” happened Tuesday morning, when Turkish fighter planes shot down the Russian warplane. Turkey claimed the attack happened because the Russian plane violated its airspace, a claim that seems quite plausible. That might well be all that’s going on here.

 

[pepipop]

Here is the unpalatable truth:

vox.com/2015/11/24/9792830/russia-plane-turkmen

Online/printed today at 2pm.