Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

[Vouthon]

Are they, is there evidence of same? That story only came out this PM, after Turkey blew a Russian jet out of the sky, all very fortuitous timing.

I watch all press meetings, especially with the USA, in relation to this issue - i.e. Russia is killing everybody but ISIS. When reporters ask for definitive evidence the answer’s always the same, it’s confidential.

So no evidence, then it didnae happen. Also, as a law graduate, Vouthon, how many court cases could you win without any evidence, and only hearsay to back your case.

The Turkmen situation has been brewing for a while, not since today. Here is an article on Russian air strikes killing Turkmen civilians from October 1st:

themoscowtimes.com/news/article/syrian-turkmen-group-russian-airstrikes-kill-over-40-civilians/536413.html

**Syrian Turkmen Group: Russian Airstrikes Kill Over 40 Civilians

Russia’s first airstrikes in Syria, which Moscow said were aimed at Islamic State fighters, instead hit Free Syrian Army sites and killed dozens of civilians, an opposition Turkmen group said on Thursday.

Russian jets continued to bomb rebel positions for a second day in western Syria on Thursday. The bombardment marks a major escalation of the four-year conflict, where the United States and its coalition of Western allies and regional states have been flying missions for more than a year.

Areas where ethnic Turkmens live in Homs and Hama came under attack on Wednesday, the Turkey-based Syrian Turkmen Assembly said in a statement. In the village of Telbiseh near Homs alone, 40 civilians, including Turkmens, were killed, it said.**

The Turkmens, whose Syrian Turkmen Brigades armed wing is allied with the Free Syrian Army, say they have been targeted by both Assad’s forces and Islamic State since the civil war began in 2011.

“We strongly condemn Russia, which was not satisfied with its unlimited support of the murderous regime and now rains down bombs on the Syrian people, promising ‘democracy’,” the statement said.

 

[marymary1975]

Are you honestly trying to claim that a fighter\bomber that can put a payload within 3 meters of its target, could not tell what country it was flying in??

Or that it’s pilot could not read a map enough to see a border??

Seriously?

Exactly

 

[marymary1975]

I am not a law graduate, maybe you are Vouthon and I read that wrong.

However there are laws and there are laws. Turkey knew Russia weren’t in their airspace to carry out an attack on them, they are not enemies, they are supposedly friendly nations fighting the same war. Turkey knew Russia was flying back to Syria to fight a ‘joint’ enemy.

A 17 second mishap in their airspace and two men are killed. That is not moral, decent, diplomatic nor a few other 100 words, I can’t think of.

It was completely wrong and that’s my opinion. They could have escorted them out of their airspace - mind you, how they could have done that in 17 seconds, would have been very interesting to see.

Turkey and Russia friendly nations??? When did that happen. Turkey and Russia are as friendly as the US was friendly to Russia in the cold war.

 

[Brendan]

Turkey and Russia friendly nations??? When did that happen. Turkey and Russia are as friendly as the US was friendly to Russia in the cold war.

I agree, there is no Russian pilot who would have ever considered the Turks to be an Ally

Either in the Cold War, or now

youtube.com/watch?v=Cgi9tz3IZWQ

 

[pepipop]

The Turkmen situation has been brewing for a while, not since today. Here is an article on Russian air strikes killing Turkmen civilians from October 1st:

themoscowtimes.com/news/article/syrian-turkmen-group-russian-airstrikes-kill-over-40-civilians/536413.html

That’s a USA funded publication that has printed a lot of false stories about Russia, also the source is a rebel source, so who knows.

The fact that Russia asked all other countries to join them in fighting ISIS, is proof enough. Why would they do that and then not fight ISIS themselves - and assume the other partners would have let them, whilst the others were fighting ISIS.

It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[tomarin]

That’s a USA funded publication that has printed a lot of false stories about Russia, also the source is a rebel source, so who knows.

The fact that Russia asked all other countries to join them in fighting ISIS, is proof enough. Why would they do that and then not fight ISIS themselves - and assume the other partners would have let them, whilst the others were fighting ISIS.

It doesn’t make any sense.

Only if you take everything Putin says at face value, Pepipop.

 

[Vouthon]

That’s a USA funded publication that has printed a lot of false stories about Russia, also the source is a rebel source, so who knows.

The fact that Russia asked all other countries to join them in fighting ISIS, is proof enough. Why would they do that and then not fight ISIS themselves - and assume the other partners would have let them, whilst the others were fighting ISIS.

It doesn’t make any sense.

The U.S. has been leading air strikes against ISIS since June of last year. I don’t remember Russia coming to the rescue of the 50,000 Yazidis about to be mass murdered by ISIS on Mount Sinjar:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjar_massacre

On 8 August 2014 the United States reacted with airstrikes on ISIL units and convoys in northern Iraq, which led to a war of several countries against ISIL. Assistance of Kurds and Americans enabled the majority of 50,000 Yazidis who fled into the Sinjar Mountains to be evacuated.

Russia got involved in the Syrian conflict last month to buck up Assad by raining down air strikes on the opposition groups menacing him, not ISIS. Only after ISIS downed a Russian jet did its calculus change, at least in public.

Still, to this day, we find that Russia prioritizes fighting anti-Assad rebels, or at the very least is willing to divert a sizeable chunk of its war effort away from ISIS and towards groups like the Turkmen, who have been menaced by ISIS.

 

[pepipop]

Turkey and Russia friendly nations??? When did that happen. Turkey and Russia are as friendly as the US was friendly to Russia in the cold war.

Does it matter, they were allegedly ‘friends’ in relation to this ‘war’ and had been attempting to tighten their alliances since Dec 2014 - that’s the end of that alliance anyway.

uk.businessinsider.com/afp-erdogan-hosts-putin-to-tighten-turkey-russia-alliance-2014-11?r=US&IR=T

So what exactly do you think the pilots were trying to achieve, in the 17 seconds, in Turkish airspace? Did they do it ‘purposely’ for sheer badness, and/or to play chicken with Turkey airspace for 17 seconds, and/or to see if they could just get away with it - or could it possibly have been just to save time, to do what they had to do, as quickly as possible?

I mean, what were their anti-Turkey motives for doing it?

 

[pepipop]

Only if you take everything Putin says at face value, Pepipop.

True, but he did ask them all to join Russia, and again after Paris, last week. Those actions in themselves say a lot, without any words from Putin.

 

[Vouthon]

I mean, what were their anti-Turkey motives for doing it?

Turkey has important trade links with Russia, Putin and Erdogan are both similarly-minded strongmen and lots of Russians apparently go on holiday to Turkey (or did before today’s virtual travel ban).

But their relations have been becoming increasingly strained over the fact that Moscow is implacably pro-Assad regime whereas Ankara is stridently anti-Assad.

Russia’s continued bombardment of Turkmen villages and militias near the border has only intensified these worsening bilateral relations. Now there are effectively no relations between the two powers.

They have never been allied. Strong economic partners out of mutual interest, always hopeful of a deeper relationship grounded in the fact that both Putin and Erdogan are despotic autocrats with delusions of grandeur, but never “allies”. Turkey’s NATO membership and (ludicrous) ambitions to join the EU as a member state since the 1980s (yes, that long) would make any deeper alliance kind of tricky as well.

 

[pepipop]

Turkey has important trade links with Russia, Putin and Erdogan are both similarly-minded strongmen and lots of Russians apparently go on holiday to Turkey (or did before today’s virtual travel ban).

But their relations have been becoming increasingly strained over the fact that Moscow is implacably pro-Assad regime whereas Ankara is stridently anti-Assad.

Russia’s continued bombardment of Turkmen villages and militias near the border has only intensified these worsening bilateral relations. Now there are effectively no relations between the two powers.

They have never been allied. Strong economic partners out of mutual interest, always hopeful of a deeper relationship grounded in the fact that both Putin and Erdogan are despotic autocrats with delusions of grandeur, but never “allies”.

OK, so I see - but that gave Turkey no right to shoot them out of the sky, for a 17 sec airspace violation, when Turkey has been stating they are fighting ISIS too - that was my reference to ‘ally’, i.e. they had the same enemy.

I recognise they are totally opposed in relation to Assad, but none of this should have caused Turkey to take the action they did when they knew Russia had no intention of firing on Turkey and were returning into Syria. Whether or not Russia’s hitting Turkmen, is debatable, too fortuitous timing IMO, to be believed. I can only assume some were hit, possibly by Syrian forces but who knows whose doing what and to whom at this stage.

However, it still does not get around the fact that Putin asked them all to join him, and if they do/did, how can/could he be hitting different targets to everyone else.

Why do Turkey think the Russian pilots did what they did, for badness - or was it simply ‘A who do they think they are’ reaction, just shoot them down ‘for badness’.

What has Turkey gained from this (aside from their own reasons), they’ve not done themselves any favours by showing their hand. They’ve also been outed as helping ISIS by the USA treasury, and by a speaker at the UK parliament?

 

[pepipop]

Heartbreaking.

The rebels (if they walk like a duck…) whichever ones they are, have put pictures up of the belongings of the pilots, or that were found in the plane and includes a large crucifix, and an icon of Our Lady and child.

One pilot was a father to adult children.

There are also pictures of the ‘friendly’ Turkmen, with the pilots’ parachutes - whoops they’re the ‘nice’ rebels. My bad.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

 

[pepipop]

Yeah right, one rule for us and you another.

This was an over-a-minute violation by a plane that was doing reconassiance with intent to use its data to damage Syria (by passing it to rebels).

*Earlier, Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at Syria’s decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom last Friday and described Syria as a “clear and present threat”.

“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he said.

He said the Turkish jet had been on a training flight, testing Turkey’s radars in the eastern Mediterranean.
Mr Erdogan said Turkey was adopting a “common sense” attitude, but that “shouldn’t be perceived as a weakness”.

bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18598529

And NATO’s response to the above:

nato.int/cps/en/SID-3E1CD386-07A55799/natolive/news_88652.htm

The North Atlantic Council discussed the shooting down of a Turkish aircraft by Syria. We consider this act to be unacceptable and condemn it in the strongest terms. It is another example of the Syrian authorities’ disregard for international norms, peace and security, and human life.

Our thoughts at this difficult time are with the missing Turkish aircrew, their families and their loved ones. We continue to follow the situation closely and with great concern, and will remain seized of developments on the South-Eastern border of NATO.*

 

[Abynissa]

Russia has been violating Turkey airspace on numerous occasions prior to this date. Russia’s main target is the insurgents attacking Assad forces not ISSI. You know Assad, the tyrant who destroyed his own country, gassed his own people and committed crimes against humanity against his own people. Russia’s main purpose is to prop up Assad in a coalition with Shia Iran and Shia Hezbollah in Lebanon and Gaza. So Russia was bombing Turkmen, an ally of Turkey. Turkey is mainly Sunni.

Turkey finally had enough with Russia’s incursion of its borders by giving Russia a final notice.

wtop.com/europe/2015/10/turkey-says-russian-warplane-violated-its-airspace/
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — In a signal of new tensions raised by Moscow’s airstrikes in Syria, NATO denounced Russia on Monday for “irresponsible behavior” after its warplanes violated Turkish airspace, and** Turkey warned that any future aerial intruder would be treated like an enemy.**

17 seconds means over 170+ miles incusrion within Turkey

If anyone violated Russian airspace they would be shot down as well exept Russia has a tendency to shoot down civilian airliners. Remember Korean Air Lines Flight 007 and Malaysia Airlines in Pro-Russia separatists territory.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Heartbreaking.

The rebels (if they walk like a duck…) whichever ones they are, have put pictures up of the belongings of the pilots, or that were found in the plane and includes a large crucifix, and an icon of Our Lady and child.

One pilot was a father to adult children.

There are also pictures of the ‘friendly’ Turkmen, with the pilots’ parachutes - whoops they’re the ‘nice’ rebels. My bad.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/24/20/2EC73F5B00000578-3331558-image-m-5_1448398765200.jpg

I don’t think the fate of the pilots have been confirmed so they will be in my prayers.

 

[pepipop]

Russia has been violating Turkey airspace on numerous occasions prior to this date. Russia’s main target is the insurgents attacking Assad forces not ISSI. You know Assad, the tyrant who destroyed his own country, gassed his own people and committed crimes against humanity against his own people. Russia’s main purpose is to prop up Assad in a coalition with Shia Iran and Shia Hezbollah in Lebanon and Gaza. So Russia was bombing Turkmen, an ally of Turkey. Turkey is mainly Sunni.

Turkey finally had enough with Russia’s incursion of its borders by giving Russia a final notice.

wtop.com/europe/2015/10/turkey-says-russian-warplane-violated-its-airspace/
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — In a signal of new tensions raised by Moscow’s airstrikes in Syria, NATO denounced Russia on Monday for “irresponsible behavior” after its warplanes violated Turkish airspace, and** Turkey warned that any future aerial intruder would be treated like an enemy.**

17 seconds means over 170+ miles incusrion within Turkey

If anyone violated Russian airspace they would be shot down as well exept Russia has a tendency to shoot down civilian airliners. Remember Korean Air Lines Flight 007 and Malaysia Airlines in Pro-Russia separatists territory.

No it wasn’t, it was 2.5 kilometres and they flew straight down, there is a loop that protrudes outward into Syria, near their borders - there are maps on the thread that Turkey provided. However Russia has stated they did not fly into this ‘imaginary’ loop and have different radar/maps.

However Erdogan stated a few years back when he flew into Syria undertaking surveillance for anti-Syrian forces, for over a minute, the following.

Earlier, Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at Syria’s decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom last Friday and described Syria as a “clear and present threat”.
“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he said.
He said the Turkish jet had been on a training flight, testing Turkey’s radars in the eastern Mediterranean.
Mr Erdogan said Turkey was adopting a “common sense” attitude, but that “shouldn’t be perceived as a weakness”.

 

[Abynissa]

Accoding to the BBC, prior to today’s incident, Turkey had summoned Russia’s envoy to Ankara three times due to Russia’s violations of Turkey’s airspace, BBC reported.

What did Russia expect? Yayladagi, in Hatay province. Turkish officials released what they said was the radar image of the path the Russian plane took, showing it flying across a stretch of Turkish territory in the country’s southernmost tip.

Col. Steve Warren, spokesman for the U.S. military in Baghdad, said the U.S. heard communication between Turkish and Russian pilots and could confirm that Turkish pilots issued 10 verbal warnings before the plane was shot down. How many warnings does Russia need? In my last post, Turkey told Russia that any more violations will be met with force. So Russia was warned but disregarded Turkey’s warning.

Turkey has voiced concern over Russia’s bombing of ethnic Turkmen areas in Syria and complained that the Russian operations have complicated the possibility of creating a safe zone in northern Syria to protect civilians, as well as moderate rebels fighting Assad.

So to save face with the Russian people over Putin’ policy decision to help Assad which caused the bombing of a Russian airliner and now a SU-34, Putin could move S-300 missle battery north to shoot down Turkish warplanes. Then you could have the beginning of WWIII as a CNN opinion piece alluded to. Turkey is a member of NATO which means an attack on one member is an attack on all members.

 

[OraLabora]

Does it matter, they were allegedly ‘friends’ in relation to this ‘war’ and had been attempting to tighten their alliances since Dec 2014 - that’s the end of that alliance anyway.

uk.businessinsider.com/afp-erdogan-hosts-putin-to-tighten-turkey-russia-alliance-2014-11?r=US&IR=T

So what exactly do you think the pilots were trying to achieve, in the 17 seconds, in Turkish airspace? Did they do it ‘purposely’ for sheer badness, and/or to play chicken with Turkey airspace for 17 seconds, and/or to see if they could just get away with it - or could it possibly have been just to save time, to do what they had to do, as quickly as possible?

I mean, what were their anti-Turkey motives for doing it?

I haven’t followed this to any great extent but I’ll say this, as a pilot (albeit a private pilot): 17 seconds at such high speed could be something as innocent as underestimating the turn radius of their aircraft or overshooting the turn point by a few seconds, putting the apex of the turn inside Turkish airspace. We will likely never know the exact truth which will get lost in the political grandstanding.

 

[Ridgerunner]

No it wasn’t, it was 2.5 kilometres and they flew straight down, there is a loop that protrudes outward into Syria, near their borders - there are maps on the thread that Turkey provided. However Russia has stated they did not fly into this ‘imaginary’ loop and have different radar/maps.

However Erdogan stated a few years back when he flew into Syria undertaking surveillance for anti-Syrian forces, for over a minute, the following.

Earlier, Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at Syria’s decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom last Friday and described Syria as a “clear and present threat”.
“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he said.
He said the Turkish jet had been on a training flight, testing Turkey’s radars in the eastern Mediterranean.
Mr Erdogan said Turkey was adopting a “common sense” attitude, but that “shouldn’t be perceived as a weakness”.

So, Turkey’s “rage” at having one of its planes shot down by Syrians or Russians or whoever was really at the controls, expressed itself in shooting down a Russian plane flying over Turkish territory. Perhaps we’ll now see how Russian “rage” expresses itself, as it surely will in some manner.

Why do either of them do those things? For the same reason Russia flies into British or Swedish territory. Two autocrats are engaged in bellicose behavior to intimidate others and to show their own people how tough they are.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I haven’t followed this to any great extent but I’ll say this, as a pilot (albeit a private pilot): 17 seconds at such high speed could be something as innocent as underestimating the turn radius of their aircraft or overshooting the turn point by a few seconds, putting the apex of the turn inside Turkish airspace. We will likely never know the exact truth which will get lost in the political grandstanding.

I’m no pilot, but I would say it would be even more difficult for the Turks to have shot them down in a brief overflight or within an instant thereafter without knowing where they were likely to be and when. The Turks knew it was going to happen or was highly probable, and were waiting for the Russians to do it…again.

As I said, I’m no pilot, but if you watch the films of shootdowns of jets in previous wars, it all happens it split seconds or it doesn’t happen at all. The Turks were waiting for the Russians to do it and were ready for it. And the Russian pilot knew the Turkish fighters were where they were, too. And the Russian pilot didn’t overfly Turkish territory without ground approval. What the Russians didn’t know is that this time the Turks would shoot.