Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

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Path_Finder said:
This has nothing to do with ISIS; oh, and now, it’s “hilarious that there are moderate rebels” but that is whom the Russians met in Moscow. :rolleyes: Along with crediting moderate forces for telling them where to bomb ISIS according to the Russians.

So, now, we went from the narrative that Russians are always bombing ISIS to all rebels being radicalized. :rolleyes: And the sad thing is this seems to justify a slaughter let alone, a total change in the narrative one put forth.
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Weren’t you just posting condemning Russians for bombing “moderate rebels” supposedly allied with the US fighting Assad forces and now also critical of Russian allied “moderate rebels”, I am sorry, that is too many “moderate rebels” to keep straight. what is the point? oh well, I guess some people can have moderate rebels but others can’t? I personally don’t buy into “Moderate rebels” in regard those in Syria for either side.
 
Abynissa said:
It is a known fact that Russia is paying an army of trolls to hit social media outlets of Western news organizations in the comment sections with their distorted fews. Regulars on TheGuardian are well aware of this as with other social media outlets

As I posted and predicted yesterday, on what Putin’s action has come true.

AP
MOSCOW (AP) – President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday ordered state-of-the art air defense missile systems to be deployed at a Russian air base in Syria following the downing of one of its warplanes by Turkey, a move that raised the threat of a military confrontation between the NATO member and Moscow.

The S-400 missile systems will be sent to the Hemeimeem air base in Syria?s coastal province of Latakia, located about 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey. The systems are capable of targeting Turkish jets with deadly precision.** If Russia shot down a Turkish plane, NATO would be required to intervene.**
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😃 That old chestnut.

It’s obvious the comments are homegrown due to their lingo and the comments made, especially in relation to their own respective country’s governments/situation/etc. Also, technologically, the handle of the user can be checked back to see what else they have commented on, in the publication.

So if they’re only commenting about Russia, or related areas, I’m sure such commenters are banned from the board. All comments are moderated too.

Why wouldn’t he do that. 🤷 that’s gamesmanship. Or were Turkey in on it too, and helped Putin by shooting his men and his jet down?

It doesn’t mean he’ll ever ‘have’ to use it.
 
JW55 said:
Weren’t you just posting condemning Russians for bombing “moderate rebels” supposedly allied with the US fighting Assad forces and now also critical of Russian allied “moderate rebels”, I am sorry, that is too many “moderate rebels” to keep straight. what is the point? oh well, I guess some people can have moderate rebels but others can’t? I personally don’t buy into “Moderate rebels” in regard those in Syria for either side.
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Agree. They’re all ‘fighters’ whatever each group is rebelling against. They’re wrecking Syria and killing numerous civilians, and possibly they may get around to killing each other.

‘If it walks like a duck, …’
 
JW55 said:
Weren’t you just posting condemning Russians for bombing “moderate rebels” supposedly allied with the US fighting Assad forces and now also critical of Russian allied “moderate rebels”, I am sorry, that is too many “moderate rebels” to keep straight. what is the point? oh well, I guess some people can have moderate rebels but others can’t? I personally don’t buy into “Moderate rebels” in regard those in Syria for either side.
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I think you have exposed the hypocrisy, thank you.

Also, if one doesn’t buy into the moderate rebels bit, apparently, those in Moscow do.
 
Obviously there are such criticisms. Isn’t that what you are doing? Did you also do so for the American pilots who bombed the hospital? It is all tragic. Both ways. Are you a pilot? Can you separate who belongs to what group? Do you honestly think there aren’t ISIS infiltrated in these groups? They change all the time. A lot of these are Al Qaeda (remember the towers in NYC?). “Moderate rebels”, a nice ploys to get shiny new weapons from the U.S.
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Off topic and an emotional appeal, too bad those emotions don’t seem to extend to others.
I feel sorry for all deaths in war. Civilians and military. What a loss for what could have been productive lives. However, I could provide you an arm’s length of atrocities from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The various Middle Eastern, committed by Americans. There were many. Obviously it could be said for the Russians, the Germans in WWII. So what is the point? They were in a War!
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Off topic, this is about current events.
Of course there is, there is always blowback from the press, the enemy and those you aren’t in an alliance with. It’s usually one-sided depending on what team you play for.
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No one plays for a team.
Once again it goes both ways, but if you don’t want to see the perspective from both sides, that sort of thing is conveniently discard, right?
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This seems to be generally venting about US intervention in the past, not the topic at hand.
It amazes me how things are always so one sided. The “boots on the ground” crowd and those who want America involved in every world skirmish that surfaces then want to put “rules of conflict” on our American soldiers and other allied armies fighting the opposition and then turn around and jump at every error or violation that occurs or maybe just defend the home team actions for every similar event. Most of these people who do so were probably never in the military themselves or if they were, never saw real life combat or know what is involved just to survive in situations where you often have to make instantaneous decisions on life and death. They want to have these “rules of engagement’ like they are a combat video game or a chess board. This is demeaning and insulting to our troops and those soldiers of other nations that are fighting wars perpetuated by politicians that people believe are to ”keep us safe”. Of course never mind these soldiers may die there or be maimed or suffer for the rest of their lives from the things that they have witnessed, right? At least all the arm chair quarterbacks can eat their popcorn, watch their favorite shows on TV, and spend endless hours citing mass media articles on the topic supporting their biased political positions without having to be directly involved and post them on a forum.
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Collateral damage is a reality of war. Deaths on both sides and unimaginable terror and suffering is a result. But if we don’t have the stomach for accepting that then we need to keep ourselves out of the conflict. I was not in favor of intervention in the Middle East or any interventionist war except defense of our country on our soil, but we are there. The French, British and Russians are there. So if we are there and that is our commitment, we have to do what is necessary to get this over ASAP and put aside pettiness and hatred of Russia or whoever and cooperate with other nations to get the job. If anyone think ISIS plays by rules and believe they are not integrated in these “moderate rebels” or other militant groups is absurd and** out of touch with reality**.
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Oh, yes, this is so true, that is why they fight against each other, this is why the “Syrian Democratic Forces” are Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians and Kurds. Oh, sure, they are integrating with ISIS. Yes, I guess I’m out of touch. 👍

This is more lumping all rebels together, and not only is it in error, seeing how Moscow has met with representatives of the opposition in Moscow but they have had actual cooperation with moderate forces to bomb ISIS but this seems to be a tact used to excuse widespread bombing, quite a change if one is so concerned with human life.
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ibtimes.com/jabhat-al-nusra-isis-alliance-could-spread-beyond-damascus-1877819
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This puts a different slant on it all, right from the horse’s mouth so to speak. Could explain a lot. :rolleyes:

awdnews.com/top-news/turkish-intelligence-chief-putin-s-intervention-in-syria-is-against-islam-and-international-law,-isis-is-a-reality-and-we-are-optimistic-about-the-future

Turkish intelligence chief: Putin’s intervention in Syria is against Islam and international law, ISIS is a reality and we are optimistic about the future

Ankara— Hakan Fidan, the head of Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization, known by the MİT acronym, has drawn a lot of attention and criticism for his controversial comments about ISIS.

Mr. Hakan Fidan, Turkish President’s staunchest ally, condemned Russian military intervention in Syria, accusing Moscow of trying to ‘smother’ Syria’s Islamist revolution and serious breach of United Nations law.

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State; therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and thwart Vladimir Putin’s plans to crush Syrian Islamist revolutionaries,” Anadolu News Agency quoted Mr. Fidan as saying on Sunday.

Fidan further added that in order to deal with the vast number of foreign Jihadists craving to travel to Syria, it is imperative that ISIS must set up a consulate or at least a political office in Istanbul. He underlined that it is Turkey’s firm belief to provide medical care for all injured people fleeing Russian ruthless airstrikes regardless of their political or religious affiliation.
 
Turkey’s air violations with Greece, especially in 2014. They’ll have to ‘improve’ their flying skills now.

 
Path_Finder said:
So the Guardian moderates comments, I think we can take this to mean then they don’t.😃

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/25/john-mcdonnell-mao-little-red-book-dirty-trick#comment-63956044

At least not all articles.
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That’s very rarely allowed, it’ll be taken down eventually. Mind you, with bad language they usually expect others to report it Or as the poster didn’t even break the cuss word up, they would have a system that identifies swear words and the post is automatically held back.

Looks like the Guardian have gotten used to polite commenters - up to now. 🙂
 
Path_Finder said:
middleeasteye.net/news/russian-pilot-denies-turkey-gave-warning-prior-downing-jets-1827639342

Protests outside of the Turkish embassy in Russia.

One thing we know is even if Turkey entered Greek airspace, the two nations are not at war, both are Nato members. It seems in a roundabout way, Russia has even said they are in Syria to go after ISIS if not solely only ISIS. One would have to look through the articles to see what they say.
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Well the thing of interest here is, if the Russian pilot is correct then it’s up to Turkey’s airspace operators to release their warnings’ recording.

If they say they haven’t got it, or whatever - well then we know who was telling porkies.
 
Sputnik news:
Russia Acting in Sync With Moderate Opposition in Syria – Putin
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Russia is cooperating with the moderate Syrian opposition, including the Free Syrian Army, President Vladimir Putin said on Friday.
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He emphasized that this operation was aimed at combating international terrorists and not to keep Syrian President Bashar Assad in power.
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Read more: sputniknews.com/russia/20151113/1030051173/russia-putin-syria-opposition.html#ixzz3sWiN2Hm6
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Perhaps we can assume the truth is the opposite of some assertions. :rolleyes: 😦
If anyone think ISIS plays by rules and believe they are not integrated in these “moderate rebels” or other militant groups is absurd and out of touch with reality.
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Path_Finder said:
Off topic and an emotional appeal, too bad those emotions don’t seem to extend to others.

Off topic, this is about current events.

No one plays for a team.

This seems to be generally venting about US intervention in the past, not the topic at hand.

Oh, yes, this is so true, that is why they fight against each other, this is why the “Syrian Democratic Forces” are Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians and Kurds. Oh, sure, they are integrating with ISIS. Yes, I guess I’m out of touch. 👍

This is more lumping all rebels together, and not only is it in error, seeing how Moscow has met with representatives of the opposition in Moscow but they have had actual cooperation with moderate forces to bomb ISIS but this seems to be a tact used to excuse widespread bombing, quite a change if one is so concerned with human life.
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Hardly off topic. Merely, responding to your comments. Nice try though. I just added balance to a typical one view approach. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. However, there are others on the forum who like to at least see some balance in a perspective. From many of your posts one would have a one sided perspective of many issues.

Every coin has two sides. People deserve to hear and/or see it. I want a strong America with good morals, a healthy place to live, secure borders, a right to bear arms, a solid future for generations to come, good jobs, a fair trade with other nations and a strong domestic military. I am not anti-military. I am against involving our nation in everyone’s national affairs.

As far as the “team” response. That’s pretty much what it is. NATO is a “team”. An alliance of countries, unfortunately with one country doing most of the passing, receiving tackling and blocking.

Please don’t give me the emotional plea line. Look at my posting numbers over the last 7 1/2 yrs on this forum. I am not posting thousands of comments, looking for approval. I have little time to do so. Sorry to disappoint you, I am far from the teary-eyed type. What I don’t do is live my life in front of TV sitting in a recliner in my little box shut off from the world. I have seen plenty of the world with it’s good, bad and ugly aspects. The comment about not “extending my emotion to others”. I think I made it is clear that I am against unnecessary war. If people would stay out of wars fewer people would die. I am not in favor of more Americans or those in other countries having to die or be maimed. In regard to this forum, unless I feel someone is antagonistic to me personally I try to be respectful to them.
 
pepipop said:
Does it matter, they were allegedly ‘friends’ in relation to this ‘war’ and had been attempting to tighten their alliances since Dec 2014 - that’s the end of that alliance anyway.

uk.businessinsider.com/afp-erdogan-hosts-putin-to-tighten-turkey-russia-alliance-2014-11?r=US&IR=T

So what exactly do you think the pilots were trying to achieve, in the 17 seconds, in Turkish airspace? Did they do it ‘purposely’ for sheer badness, and/or to play chicken with Turkey airspace for 17 seconds, and/or to see if they could just get away with it - or could it possibly have been just to save time, to do what they had to do, as quickly as possible?

I mean, what were their anti-Turkey motives for doing it?
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That is what I am to try to.explain to you. You are looking at this situation.as two friendly nations fighting a common enemy. That is not the real.situation. The fact that they are being civilised to each other because of international.pressures doesn’t mean they are friendly. They have been historical enemies for centuries and they can’t stand each other and even in times of peace they have a target eye on each other.

I am not.justifying Turkey in.Amy way but you have to see that these are two countries that are eternal.enemies that are just waiting for the minimal thing to go against each other. Turkey can care less about ISIS because their real.enemy is Russia.

What the pilots.where trying to do? To push buttons because they can’t stand the Turks.on the same way that the Turks are pushing buttons.because they can’t stand the Russians.

The situation.between Turkey and Russia is just like Turkey and Greece. They hate each other they are eternal.enemies and despite being civilised due to international.pressure, they both have the target at each other.
 
pepipop said:
Turkey’s air violations with Greece, especially in 2014. They’ll have to ‘improve’ their flying skills now.

https://imgur.com/yFTPLz8
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Because the situation between Turkey and Greece is exactly the same as Turkey and Russia. They are eternal.enemies always with a foot on starting a belic conflict. Again no.nation does this unless they have belic intentions. For many years the Turks.and Greeks have had the guns pointing at each other.
 
marymary1975 said:
That is what I am to try to.explain to you. You are looking at this situation.as two friendly nations fighting a common enemy. That is not the real.situation. The fact that they are being civilised to each other because of international.pressures doesn’t mean they are friendly. They have been historical enemies for centuries and they can’t stand each other and even in times of peace they have a target eye on each other.

I am not.justifying Turkey in.Amy way but you have to see that these are two countries that are eternal.enemies that are just waiting for the minimal thing to go against each other. Turkey can care less about ISIS because their real.enemy is Russia.

What the pilots.where trying to do? To push buttons because they can’t stand the Turks.on the same way that the Turks are pushing buttons.because they can’t stand the Russians.

The situation.between Turkey and Russia is just like Turkey and Greece. They hate each other they are eternal.enemies and despite being civilised due to international.pressure, they both have the target at each other.
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Yes, I fully recognise that now. 👍

They were ‘pretend political friends’ though, i.e. Erdogan had invited Putin to form an alliance, 8 months prior. Aside from that Turkey ‘knew’ why Russia traveled 2.5 kilometres over their airspace, in 17 secs., so as to turn back into Syrian territory, to fight terrorism, and the plane was shot down, in Syria.

So, whether they were arch enemies or not, Turkey’s actions were completely OTT, as they ‘knew’ the current ‘international’ emergency situation - especially after Paris a few weeks ago - and exactly why Russia was there, which was NOT to annoy or wind-up Turkey.

So even if they were the greatest archenemies, of all times, it was not right IMO.
 
marymary1975 said:
Because the situation between Turkey and Greece is exactly the same as Turkey and Russia. They are eternal.enemies always with a foot on starting a belic conflict. Again no.nation does this unless they have belic intentions. For many years the Turks.and Greeks have had the guns pointing at each other.
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Fortunately, the Greeks didn’t shoot down the Turkish planes each time they violated their airspace. If they had, the Turks would have had to buy a new air fleet, every few months.
 
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