Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

[Abba]

Pepipop, here is a copy of the letter. All I can say is that after reading this letter, if I would have accepted the charge of rescuing him by whomever would be sincerely interested - I would have spent all the energy of my men and all resources locating him in Turkey in some country side by a river, lake, woods etc. The most important message he had to pass was his location and as far as I am concerned he succeeded. The peculiar thing is that the message passed the heads of ISIS and was not picked up by the USA government -maybe they are one and the same. The ones that okayed it from ISIS were the ones that okayed in the USA. How could it go right over the heads of both groups or are we really talking about the same head?

"It is still really hard to believe all of this is really happening… as I am sure you know by now, things have been getting pretty intense. We have been held together, us foreigners … and now about half the people have gone home. … I hope that this all has a happy ending but it may very well be coming down to the wire here, and if in fact that is the case then I figured it was time to say a few things that need saying before I have to go.

The first thing I want to say is thank you. Both to you and mom for everything you have both done for me as parents; for everything you have taught me, shown me, and experienced with me. I cannot imagine the strength and commitment it has taken to raise a son like me but your love and patience are things I am so deeply grateful for.

Secondly, I want you to know about things here and what I’ve been through straight from me so you don’t have to wonder, guess, or imagine (often this is worse than the reality). All in all I am alright. Physically I am pretty underweight but I’m not starved, & I have no physical injuries, I’m a tough kid and still young so that helps.

Mentally I am pretty sure this is the hardest thing a man can go through, the stress and fear are incredible but I am coping as best I can. I am not alone. I have friends, we laugh, we play chess, we play trivia to stay sharp, and we share stories and dreams of home and loved ones. I can be hard to deal with, you know me. My mind is quick and my patience thinner than most. But all in all I am holding my own. I cried a lot in the first few months but a little less now. I worry a lot about you and mom and my friends.

They tell us you have abandoned us and/or don’t care but of course we know you are doing everything you can and more. Don’t worry Dad, if I do go down, I won’t go thinking anything but what I know to be true. That you and mom love me more than the moon & the stars.

I am obviously pretty scared to die but the hardest part is not knowing, wondering, hoping, and wondering if I should even hope at all. I am very sad that all this has happened and for what all of you back home are going through. If I do die, I figure that at least you and I can seek refuge and comfort in knowing that I went out as a result of trying to alleviate suffering and helping those in need.

In terms of my faith, I pray everyday and I am not angry about my situation in that sense. I am in a dogmatically complicated situation here, but I am at peace with my belief.

I wish this paper would go on forever and never run out and I could just keep talking to you. Just know I’m with you. Every stream, every lake, every field and river. In the woods and in the hills, in all the places you showed me. I love you."

 

[marymary1975]

Fortunately, the Greeks didn’t shoot down the Turkish planes each time they violated their airspace. If they had, the Turks would have had to buy a new air fleet, every few months.

Because the Greeks are afraid of the Turks. The Greeks have not been able to win a relic conflict in a long time. The Greeks are much more hesitant to push Turkey’s buttons. Turkey on the other side is not hesitant to push buttons.

 

[pepipop]

Because the Greeks are afraid of the Turks. The Greeks have not been able to win a relic conflict in a long time. The Greeks are much more hesitant to push Turkey’s buttons. Turkey on the other side is not hesitant to push buttons.

They mightn’t be so hesitant, in future. NATO say it’s OK to blow people out of the sky, if they invade your airspace, and Greece are ‘great mates’ with Russia.

 

[TaurusRex]

I’m with you pepipop…

All I can say is I have no respect for Turkey and I’m pissed at those who try to justify this and stand by Turkey (especially using NATO). Fair enough if Turkey wants to defend it’s air space, but it’s obvious there was malice involved in this. They are fighting ISIS in Syria who obviously are right on Turkeys door step.

I feel sorry for Putin and the Russian people and my prayers are with them. I hope Turkey gets kicked out of NATO and I hope Obama and the rest of NATO recognize the gross overreaction and malice involved in Turkey’s actions.

I also hope Putin will not retaliate severely and that other NATO members will stand up and correct Turkey and seek peace and reconciliation with Putin.

If this ever did blow up, there is no way I would support Turkey and likewise NATO while ever Turkey is a part of it.

Anyway, these are my views with the information I current have on this.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh,
believe me I feel almost as strongly as you do about this, but something needs to be said And it’s about Turkey …
Imho they do deserve reproachment for their overreaction;
However, it’s doubtful they’ll be removed from NATO for one reason being that they’d probably be added to our uncontrollable problems in that mixed up area …
Even though as a NATO member they’re still a problem, but we sure wouldn’t want to have to tangle with them in the future because they’re far from being a pushover for one reason.

Also Obama got to tell Putin it was his fault because he’s attacking so called “moderate rebels” instead of ISIS …
Yes Josh, you see NATO needs a dirty nasty turkey to do dirty nasty things like give Obama the courage to tell Putin it was his fault.

Then there’s something else, I suspect that the war with ISIS in Syria will go on indefinitely because it’s a convenient stomping ground …
As long as “radical jihadists” want Assad’s head, they’ll keep coming for it and get themselves bombed to oblivion …
better there than in Greece, Sicily or Spain.

PS:
Still one more thing is I wonder to whom all the money for the funny poppy trade is going …
also wonder if addiction is floating in the air out there.

rex

 

[Ridgerunner]

Josh,
believe me I feel almost as strongly as you do about this, but something needs to be said And it’s about Turkey …
Imho they do deserve reproachment for their overreaction;
However, it’s doubtful they’ll be removed from NATO for one reason being that they’d probably be added to our uncontrollable problems in that mixed up area …
Even though as a NATO member they’re still a problem, but we sure wouldn’t want to have to tangle with them in the future because they’re far from being a pushover for one reason.

Also Obama got to tell Putin it was his fault because he’s attacking so called “moderate rebels” instead of ISIS …
Yes Josh, you see NATO needs a dirty nasty turkey to do dirty nasty things like give Obama the courage to tell Putin it was his fault.

Then there’s something else, I suspect that the war with ISIS in Syria will go on indefinitely because it’s a convenient stomping ground …
As long as “radical jihadists” want Assad’s head, they’ll keep coming for it and get themselves bombed to oblivion …
better there than in Greece, Sicily or Spain.

PS:
Still one more thing is I wonder to whom all the money for the funny poppy trade is going …
also wonder if addiction is floating in the air out there.

rex

in other words, to paraphrase what Lyndon Johnson supposedly said of Robert McNamara; you prefer that Turkey be “…inside the tent p–sing (urinating) out, than outside the tent p–sing in.”

Despite all their other differences, Russia and Turkey share one characteristic in common; both are governed by half-civilized elites with modern weaponry. A most hazardous combination.

Russia and Iran might preserve the Assad government, but it will never be stable because it never was stable, and its very structure guarantees that. It has to murder and torture in order to stay in power.

I agree that the war in Syria will likely go on indefinitely unless Russia and Iran decide to spend the resources and effort to drive more of the population out, killing those rebels who don’t leave, along with whoever else is in the vicinity. They can do it. The pre-refugee explosion population was only about 7 million.

What the U.S. ought to do is persuade other Arab states to contribute sufficient secondary forces to American, Kurdish, and European primary forces to take northern Iraq back and then block Syria from Iraq entirely, letting Syria’s fight play out. America should tacitly support Kurdish efforts to maintain a more or less independent Kurdish area in Syria.

That would be an aid to Russia/Iran in retaking Syria, but chances are they’re going to do it anyway. Obama slept on this too long, so there will be no extricating Russia/Iran from Syria now. Syria will remain a semi-colony of Russia and Iran indefinitely, unless Turkey devotes a lot more resources for the benefit of Sunni rebels in that fight, causing Russia and Iran to simply grow weary of the losses. Too bad, but that’s the scenario that seems most likely to me.

Of course, Obama won’t get serious even about Iraq as long as he’s in office, so the situation might be further gone by the time he leaves.

 

[Abba]

I was taking a look at the world atlas and there are three places I would have focused on in my imaginary search; a lake called Van Golu which is a big lake surrounded by hills, Diyaman/Adiyaman which is a lake that streams out and is caused by a river (good one) and some hills; and Elazig. I would have also been on the look out for anything with ‘wire’ even if it would be a field with sheep surrounded by wire; I would have inspected for underground construction.

Erdogan mislead his people and sold Turkey short. Btw, I don’t think the Turks acted independent of the USA in the downing of the Russian jet fighters. That’s just my take.

 

[marymary1975]

They mightn’t be so hesitant, in future. NATO say it’s OK to blow people out of the sky, if they invade your airspace, and Greece are ‘great mates’ with Russia.

Being friends with Russia has not helped at all as all they do is keep losing land to Turkey and losing to Turkey. Russia has not been a very food friend because they haven’t moved one finger to help Greeks in getting their land back.

 

[pepipop]

Being friends with Russia has not helped at all as all they do is keep losing land to Turkey and losing to Turkey. Russia has not been a very food friend because they haven’t moved one finger to help Greeks in getting their land back.

What country ‘friends’ can help each other in those circumstances, without starting a major incident - that just comes under the category of ‘tough’. What exactly are Russia supposed to do about the problem, that the EU/NATO etc… can’t do. Greece is a member of both, what exactly can Russia do?

I’m sure Greece don’t expect Russia to start a war with Turkey because of their land issues.

However, as NATO has okayed blowing planes out of the sky, for a violation of a country’s airspace, they now have another way of indicating their annoyance.

*Due to the cultural, religious and historical ties between the two nations, from medieval to modern times (Byzantine Empire and Kievan Rus’ comprised part of what today is known as the Eastern Orthodoxy), Greece and Russia today enjoy strong diplomatic relations and consider each other a brother nation. Russia assisted Greece in the Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Empire. Today, many Greeks live in the Russian Federation and many Russians live in Greece. Most Greeks live in the Russian Black Sea region (100,000) with large concentrations in capital Moscow (80,000) and St. Petersburg (3,000), while many Russians live mostly in the Khalkidiki region and the Greek isle of Crete.

Diplomatic relations[edit]
Diplomatic relations were established in 1828. Greece has an embassy in Moscow, and two General Consulates (Saint Petersburg and Novorossiysk). Russia has an Embassy in Athens, a General Consulate in Thessaloniki and in 2012 announced to open an honorary consulate in Alexandroupolis. Greece also announced to open another consulate general in Yekaterinburg.*

 

[Path_Finder]

November 25, 2015

**Reports of civilian casualties dim chances of U.S.-Russia alliance in Syria **
uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/uk-mideast-crisis-usa-russia-idUKKBN0TE0E020151125

Reports of heavy civilian casualties from Russia’s bombing campaign in Syria are one key reason why Washington is unlikely to coordinate airstrikes with Moscow against Islamic State, U.S. officials told Reuters, even as President Barack Obama left the door ajar on Tuesday to military cooperation with the Kremlin.

Appearing at a White House news conference with his French counterpart, Francois Hollande, Obama reiterated that Russia was “welcome to be part of this broad-based coalition that we’ve set up.” But first, he said, it must shift its focus from propping up Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and redirect its airstrikes away from moderate rebels to hit Islamic State militants.

U.S. officials, however, said there are other obstacles to Russian participation in the U.S.-led coalition of some 60 nations that is hitting the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq.

It’s hard to mess around that region because eventually, countries like the USA or Russia and so on are going to be looked at as outsiders, you will always, at least in this day and age, have those who will ploy against the outsiders.

Reading up on Turkey, yes, they are a bit of a shady character in this.

 

[pepipop]

November 25, 2015

It’s hard to mess around that region because eventually, countries like the USA or Russia and so on are going to be looked at as outsiders, you will always, at least in this day and age, have those who will ploy against the outsiders.

Reading up on Turkey, yes, they are a bit of a shady character in this.

The hypocrisy of that article, is just unbelievable, un-be-liev-able - lost for words.
*
“Isn’t that weally. weally nice that our Pwesident isn’t going in with those bad, nasty Ruskies because they are killing all those people, and we would never do anything like that we’re weally, good”. *

That’s about the age level it’s aimed at.

The second paragraph is what they’re worried about.

*The United States, by working with Moscow militarily in Syria, could be seen as complicit in the killing and wounding of civilians, U.S. officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

They also said they feared that U.S.-Russian military cooperation would strain U.S. ties with moderate rebel groups, some of whom Washington is backing militarily.*

 

[Abba]

… moderate rebel groups…

Some countries are playing a double game, the Russian president said, adding that while they fight against terrorism they also “place figures on the board” in their own interests.

rt.com/news/319405-putin-valdai-discussion-club/

I like the way Putin put it: We don’t distinguish between terrorists.

 

[pepipop]

I like the way Putin put it: We don’t distinguish between terrorists.

Or Lavrov’s comment: ‘If it looks like a terrorist, walks like a terrorist …’

 

[Path_Finder]

It’s a bit related,

**
Iraq grounds northern flights over missiles launched at Syria**

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq closed its northern airspace to all flights on Monday for at least two days due to military traffic from Russia’s air campaign in neighbouring Syria.

The closure was expected to affect domestic commercial routes to Erbil and Sulaimaniya as well as international flights from Turkey, Jordan, the Gulf and Austria.

A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition, which launches reconnaissance and resupply flights from Erbil, said all military traffic had also been halted.

Iraq’s civil aviation authority said in a statement that flight suspensions were made “to protect travellers and because of the crossing of cruise missiles and bombers in the northern part of Iraq launched from the Caspian Sea”.

Russia began launching missiles and long-range bombers from warships in the Caspian last month. They travel some 1,500 km (900 miles) over Iran and Iraq.

A spokesman for Erbil International Airport said a change in the missiles’ route had brought them “uncomfortably close” to the airport, without providing more details.

news.yahoo.com/iraq-grounds-northern-flights-over-missiles-launched-syria-044710361.html

What a catastrophe that would be if one of these missiles hit a plane. Doesn’t that seem a bit dangerous to even send missiles through the airspace of another country.

 

[josh987654321]

Josh,
believe me I feel almost as strongly as you do about this, but something needs to be said And it’s about Turkey …
Imho they do deserve reproachment for their overreaction;
However, it’s doubtful they’ll be removed from NATO for one reason being that they’d probably be added to our uncontrollable problems in that mixed up area …
Even though as a NATO member they’re still a problem, but we sure wouldn’t want to have to tangle with them in the future because they’re far from being a pushover for one reason.

Also Obama got to tell Putin it was his fault because he’s attacking so called “moderate rebels” instead of ISIS …
Yes Josh, you see NATO needs a dirty nasty turkey to do dirty nasty things like give Obama the courage to tell Putin it was his fault.

Then there’s something else, I suspect that the war with ISIS in Syria will go on indefinitely because it’s a convenient stomping ground …
As long as “radical jihadists” want Assad’s head, they’ll keep coming for it and get themselves bombed to oblivion …
better there than in Greece, Sicily or Spain.

PS:
Still one more thing is I wonder to whom all the money for the funny poppy trade is going …
also wonder if addiction is floating in the air out there.

rex

Well, one things is for sure, if our leaders don’t wake up to themselves, especially Obama, and seek peace and reconciliation, things will get out of control and blow up, I guess WWII wasn’t horrible enough for people, now they feel okay to take stupid risks and do stupid things to bring about another.

Furthermore, I read articles from the west saying there is no worry of WWIII, and quite frankly, they are out of line as that is not a call they can make, it’s not a NATO plane that was shot down by Russia, it was the opposite. They should be talking to Putin and seeking peace and reconciliation and the combating of a common enemy.

Anyway, it’s all just madness. Now I guess it’s up to the mess in the middle east and arrogant, stupid leaders to try and drag me and everyone else into a stupid and unjust war.

I say straight up, if this ever did break out because leaders continued on their arrogant path of antagonism, there is no way I would go into bat for anyone defending Turkey. And I really don’t trust China and I know Russia is cosying up to China and I don’t completely trust Russia either. I’m mainly just so disappointed in the west and what they are doing and not doing. And I honestly think it can be all traced back to the west continually removing Christianity from their foundations.

“The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.” Psalm 118:22

Furthermore, if they are rightly outraged over some of the things Assad has done, why the heck is Saudi Arabia on the UN human rights council?

So much malice and hatred, so much hypocrisy, so much arrogance and pride, so much division, so much antagonism. It all spells disaster and devastation.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”
*
I saw the snares that the enemy spreads out over the world and I said groaning, “What can get through from such snares?” Then I heard a voice saying to me, “Humility.”‘*
– St. Anthony of Egypt

Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy. (Diary, 300)

• Jesus said to St Faustina

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Path_Finder]

Unsure if this can be authenticated:

Turkey releases recording of ‘warning’ to downed jet
Military publishes audio where voice is heard saying, “You are approaching Turkish airspace, change your heading”.

The Turkish army has released what it said was audio recordings of warnings to a Russian warplane before it was shot down along the Syrian border.

A voice in one of the recordings can be heard saying in English: “You are approaching Turkish airspace, change your heading”.

According to the Turkish armed forces, the warnings were issued by the Diyarbakir airbase and not by pilots.

The release of the recordings late on Wednesday came after the rescued pilot of the Russian jet said that the plane had received no warnings from the Turkish air force.

“There was no warning, not by radio exchange nor visually. There was no contact at all,” pilot Konstantin Murakhtin told Russian journalists at Moscow’s airbase in Syria after being rescued by special forces.

aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/turkey-recording-warning-downed-russian-jet-151125182534243.html

One would think, there would be a record of this somewhere.

 

[pepipop]

It’s a bit related,

What a catastrophe that would be if one of these missiles hit a plane. Doesn’t that seem a bit dangerous to even send missiles through the airspace of another country.

I’m sure it would but they haven’t - unlike some trigger-happy countries.

I am certain Iraq and Russia has agreed this between them.

 

[Path_Finder]

I’m sure it would but they haven’t - unlike some trigger-happy countries.

I am certain Iraq and Russia has agreed this between them.

Oh, sure, as if we have not heard of passenger airliners going down from Buk missiles.

Really, this is all too much, Russia is always right, every other country is always wrong.

 

[josh987654321]

I think this is a sad, if timely reminder of the million and one reasons we already have for not sending in ground troops. Who the enemy is on the ground, depends on who you ask.

Yes, this is very concerning and spells disaster, I heard Russia is already sending in ground troops now.

When I look at Putin’s action and listen to the comments of our Holy Father about the situation in the world today, I can only think of the warnings of our Blessed Mother regarding Russia. Putin is part of the reason Syria is in this state today because Russia and China opposed any action by the UN security council to avert civil war in Syria since that entailed acting against Assad. That failure to intervene and at least restrain Assad, is one of the reasons that ISIS took root in Syria - to make war on a brutal enemy without a prolonged fight, one either needs overwhelming numbers or overwhelming brutality.

I didn’t know this and if such is the case I agree with you, they should have restrained and corrected Assad for gross injustices toward his own people. All I see now is the west stooping to those same levels, of hypocrisy, pride and turning a blind eye all the time. America could be said to be doing the same thing with Turkey right now.

But now Mr Putin gets to somehow act as the world’s savior against ISIS? That’s the part I really don’t get, it’s like you sell the matches to an arsonist and then ride in on a fire truck (to cheers and applause) except that what you’re really spraying is gasoline and not water?!

It doesn’t look good anywhere, and I don’t know anyone I would completely back.

We are better off - the whole world is - taking a deep breath, refraining from letting our fears build up ISIS into some formidable, intimidating force (which it is not), and finding a way other than war to squeeze the life out of their organization. The best bet would be cutting of their ability to finance their activities. When I think of the countries that have done way more harm than this “pretend caliphate” of ISIS (if you count damage in terms of deaths) that were restrained by worldwide sanctions, I just cannot get why ISIS is still able to sell oil and buy arms.

It’s my understanding that Turkey is aiding ISIS in the sale of oil and their revenue raising. Which would mean Turkey and the US are benefiting off of ISIS, which would not surprise me and is gross injustice and would explain a lot.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Abba]

I was just reading reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKBN0TE0ZS20151125 and the name of the province where the fighter jets came down is given as Latakia. I tried to find it on the map and I read that it is also known as Laodicea. I am familiar with that name from the bible, I wonder if that is the biblical Laodicea /one of the Seven Churches. Maybe not, as it is supposed to be in Turkey… keyway.ca/htm2000/20000210.htm No, the biblical Laodicea is too far into Turkey to be the same Laodicea/Latakia.

 

[JW55]

Situations like this makes me question all the more why the need today exists for an organization like NATO. It was originally set up as a deterrent to the spread of communism during the period of the Soviet Union. Over time more nations have been added to the original group that are in locations more susceptible to potential aggression. The diversified group of nations there now increases the likelihood at sometime of a military clash among superpowers. Being a part of such an organization commits or in theory commits members to the defense of each other should they be attacked. I am sure in many instances a lot of nations feel no sincere obligation to support a rogue event or possibly one far from their borders. It then becomes an issue of, why have the organization if members do not fulfill their obligation. In an instance like we are seeing now between Russia and Turkey, having NATO may actually create more problems than they solve. The old adage of “There is strength in number” is only applicable if you get the support of those numbers. It would seem in the course of any conflict between two countries , any nation could of their own accord join one nation or the other in military support or otherwise. The founding Father of the United States discouraged entangling alliances. In my opinion this incident is one that has two volatile entities that place all other NATO members in a position of having to walk a tightrope and praying they don’t have to jump into the mix, because somebody makes a crazy move.