Two more cardinals back Communion for divorced and remarried

[muffindell]

And divorce and re-marriage is NOT allowed.

Why? Why would the Church decree this when she has gotten NOTHING but grief and disrespect over not permitting folks to “re-marry” in the Catholic Church?

Why indeed.

Did she just make this rule up…just to be…

mean?

Or does she really feel like she cannot do anything but proclaim that which Christ proclaimed…

even if it’s un-palatable. Dislike-able. Not how we would do things if we were the creators of the world?

LOL, so divorce is NOT allowed in the RC church because you will always be married in the eyes of the church/God unless a annulment is forthcoming; if this happens your marriage was not valid in the first place and you were never married so you could never be divorced:shrug:. In other words, even if you get a civil (legal) divorce you will still be married in the eyes of the church no matter what your legal status is!!

 

[muffindell]

Because THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE INNOCENT PARTY being able to re-marry in Jesus’ law.

Much as I would like it to be that way…I can’t change what Jesus decreed.

So here is the paradox, no mention of the innocent party leaves it wide open to interpretation either way - yes you can remarry and no you can’t remarry:thumbsup:

 

[PRmerger]

My general sense of the conversation is that you have repeatedly asserted that the Church cannot do X, and I have tried to politely drive home the point that we don’t get to tell the leaders of the church what to do–we can certainly voice our opinions, but the lines we laypeople draw in the sand are kind of meaningless.

Perhaps if you give an example of where I have asserted that, it would be helpful.

It is true that the Church cannot do X, where X =

• demand that I give my car to the bishop
• make me coffee in the morning
• re-program my iphone.

The Church also cannot do X, where X =

• declare that the Virgin Mary is now considered to be divine
• proclaim that there is no longer a Trinity
• profess that abortion is a sacrament

So I am not sure why you say that it’s wrong to say the Church can’t do X.

Again, if you could offer an example of what I have asserted regarding the Church being unable to do something, then we can chat.

Because it does appear that the Church really can’t do some things.

Now, to your point that we can’t tell Church leaders what to do, that is certainly a point where we are agreed. I wouldn’t dream of telling Church leaders what to do. And I don’t believe I’ve ever proposed that we could.

I really do think you’re getting me confused with someone else.

So I am eagerly awaiting the examples I’ve asked for.

 

[PRmerger]

LOL, so divorce is NOT allowed in the RC church because you will always be married in the eyes of the church/God unless a annulment is forthcoming;

Ah. I see where your confusion lies. You think that when the state declares a couple divorced that it actually dissolves the marriage.

Divorce does not. The couple is still sacramentally married in God’s eyes.

Divorce is simply a legal declaration, WHICH THE CHURCH RECOGNIZES.

So look at it this way: there are 2 aspects to a marriage–a legal aspect and a sacramental aspect.

The Church recognizes the right of a couple to LEGALLY dissolve their marriage.

BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE STILL SACRAMENTALLY MARRIED.

So even if you divorced your first spouse, muffindell, we presume that you and your spouse are still ONE.

Thus, you are not free to marry someone else…

because you are already married.

Even if not legally so.

 

[muffindell]

Ah. I see where your confusion lies. You think that when the state declares a couple divorced that it actually dissolves the marriage.

Divorce does not. The couple is still sacramentally married in God’s eyes.

Divorce is simply a legal declaration, WHICH THE CHURCH RECOGNIZES.

So look at it this way: there are 2 aspects to a marriage–a legal aspect and a sacramental aspect.

The Church recognizes the right of a couple to LEGALLY dissolve their marriage.

BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE STILL SACRAMENTALLY MARRIED.

So even if you divorced your first spouse, muffindell, we presume that you and your spouse are still ONE.

Thus, you are not free to marry someone else…

because you are already married.

Even if not legally so.

Yippee, you got it!!! BIg hug

 

[PRmerger]

if this happens your marriage was not valid in the first place and you were never married so you could never be divorced. In other words, even if you get a civil (legal) divorce you will still be married in the eyes of the church no matter what your legal status is!!

YES! Finally I think you are starting to see a bit clearer! :extrahappy:

The Church allows divorce, for LEGAL reasons. But you are still actually married…in the eyes of God…and cannot re-marry.

The only thing that needs tweaking above is the bolded section. Of course you can be divorced. It is a legal question. And if were legally married initially (even if not sacramentally so), you need a legal declaration to dissolve this marriage–AKA as a divorce…

which is permitted in the Catholic Church.

LURKERS: Please do not listen to the uninformed folks here who keep professing that the Catholic Church forbids divorce. THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

The CC forbids DIVORCE AND RE-MARRIAGE.

Because that is what Christ said.

“and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”–Mark 10:12

 

[PRmerger]

Yippee, you got it!!! BIg hug

Excellent.

It took a long time, but I am glad you have been corrected of your misapprehensions and uninformed ideations.

Again: DIVORCE IS PERMITTED in the CC.
DIVORCE AND RE-MARRIAGE IS NOT.

 

[PRmerger]

So here is the paradox, no mention of the innocent party leaves it wide open to interpretation either way - yes you can remarry and no you can’t remarry:thumbsup:

No, muffindell.

It’s quite clear in Mark that DIVORCE AND RE-MARRIAGE is ADULTERY.

You cannot change that, no matter how much you wish to justify your current situation.

I agree with you that it’s not a very nice teaching.

But Christ said it.

Not me.

I wish that it weren’t the case.

I know lots of friends who married losers initially, and they now have new sweethearts who are just adorable. I wish I could celebrate with them as they start a new journey…

I wish that I were the Creator of the World because I certainly wouldn’t have said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery.

But, alas, as a Christian I don’t get to tell God how to run the world. That’s above my paygrade.

And it’s above yours, too.

You have to submit to what the Creator decreed.

Not to how you think things should be.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Maybe you do have a unique personal understanding of the mysteries of the Eucharistic sacraments.

I agree that its not likely that a dramatic change is likely–I’m just happy the issues are at least being discussed. Perhaps I’m am just more reluctant than you are to make declarations about what the Church can and cannot do.

My general sense of the conversation is that you have repeatedly asserted that the Church cannot do X, and I have tried to politely drive home the point that we don’t get to tell the leaders of the church what to do–we can certainly voice our opinions, but the lines we laypeople draw in the sand are kind of meaningless.

Maybe you do have a unique personal understanding of the mysteries of the Eucharistic sacraments.

My understanding of them is Catholic. If that is unique then we have lost our souls already because we would have no Church.

I’m just happy the issues are at least being discussed.

Why are you happy they are being discussed. You enjoy confusion?

Perhaps I’m am just more reluctant than you are to make declarations about what the Church can and cannot do.

Perhaps. And perhaps you need to grow in faith to understand why the Church cannot do certain things. And why on earth would you want it to!?

I am waiting for someone to just come out and say why this is an issue. And what needs to be done about it. And why the HOLY thing is to hurt, confuse, and dilute, God’s teaching? In the name of “Mercy” which is a different Mercy than any others.

I am curious, are all those advocating for unrepentant sexual sinners to be admitted to communion advocating that same mercy be applied to homosexual couples that adopt? they have families involving children too. Right? Where is the Mercy! Or what about a Hitman that is a really good father? What if he does not stop being a hitman? Communion for everyone?

Look, I really want to know, how many people who are defying God, went to God’s Church and even sought an annulment? How many? My guess is most people said, “Wow, that is a really hard teaching.” And left.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Weird double post. (Edit)

 

[TEPO]

So even if you divorced your first spouse, muffindell, we presume that you and your spouse are still ONE.

Thus, you are not free to marry someone else…

because you are already married.

What did Jesus teach about having two sacramentally wedded wives, one being civilly divorced and the other not?

 

[1newcatholic]

I really do think you’re getting me confused with someone else.

If you say so.

 

[PRmerger]

If you say so.

Yeah, well it’s the only explanation that makes sense.

Your responses to my posts don’t seem to be responding to anything I’ve previously posted.

 

[1newcatholic]

My understanding of them is Catholic. If that is unique then we have lost our souls already because we would have no Church.

Why are you happy they are being discussed. You enjoy confusion?

Perhaps. And perhaps you need to grow in faith to understand why the Church cannot do certain things. And why on earth would you want it to!?

I am waiting for someone to just come out and say why this is an issue. And what needs to be done about it. And why the HOLY thing is to hurt, confuse, and dilute, God’s teaching? In the name of “Mercy” which is a different Mercy than any others.

I am curious, are all those advocating for unrepentant sexual sinners to be admitted to communion advocating that same mercy be applied to homosexual couples that adopt? they have families involving children too. Right? Where is the Mercy! Or what about a Hitman that is a really good father? What if he does not stop being a hitman? Communion for everyone?

Look, I really want to know, how many people who are defying God, went to God’s Church and even sought an annulment? How many? My guess is most people said, “Wow, that is a really hard teaching.” And left.

Your blanket characterizations and slippery slopes don’t seem to reflect charity. You say you want someone to come forward and explain things simply and directly to you–Cardinal Kasper has already done that pretty directly, and received some strong praise from Pope Francis.

Your kind suggestion that I need to grow in faith to understand why you are right about what the Catholic Church is allowed to do is well taken. I will pass your message on to all of those who continue to defy God by asking questions that you find confusing.

 

[TEPO]

So after marital counseling, and by the permission of the Church through exhaustion of alternatives, a married couple who do not qualify for an annulment could be permitted by the Church to take on a second Sacramentally valid marriage -and if the Church allowed it, it would not be considered a sin… Because it wouldnt be intrinsically evil. If the church allowed it. Right?

…because there would still be no sacramental divorce involved. Only civil, which would bypass secular legalities.

 

[TEPO]

…then all the catholics with two spouces could get married again at the Church, go to confession and recieve communion.

 

[PRmerger]

I am curious, are all those advocating for unrepentant sexual sinners to be admitted to communion advocating that same mercy be applied to homosexual couples that adopt? they have families involving children too. Right? Where is the Mercy! Or what about a Hitman that is a really good father? What if he does not stop being a hitman? Communion for everyone?

Indeed. I think this is a trenchant point.

Communion for everyone? Yes? or no?

What say all the folks here who think it’s absolutely intolerable that the Church does not allow divorced and re-married (and sexually active) couples to receive Him?

 

[OraLabora]

No. The Catholic Church does not glean its doctrines from a book, no matter how holy.

Rather, the Bible reflects the teachings of the Church that were given once for all to the saints.

I agree but the defenders of indissoluble marriage usually cite the Bible verse to defend their position.

It’s more complex than that.

That was my point, which I didn’t express very well.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree but the defenders of indissoluble marriage usually cite the Bible verse to defend their position.

There is nothing wrong with proclaiming that which the Bible professes. The Bible does indeed state that divorce and re-marriage is adultery.

All of us must say AMEN! to this, regardless of our own personal preferences. As I have stated, if I were Queen of the World, I wouldn’t make this the rule of the land.

But it’s different than saying that our view on marriage comes from the Bible.

The correct way to express it is that the Bible reflects the Catholic Church’s view on marriage.

And the CC gets its view on marriage from Christ through His Apostles, to the Church.

 

[TEPO]

Indeed. I think this is a trenchant point.

Communion for everyone? Yes? or no?

What say all the folks here who think it’s absolutely intolerable that the Church does not allow divorced and re-married (and sexually active) couples to receive Him?

Everyone sins PR. What should parents who have children out of a second marriage tell their children? That they are divorcing their mother or father because thats what God wants? Is that what God really wants? Or is hell their only new destiny?