Two more cardinals back Communion for divorced and remarried

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I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for remarried divorcees. But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
 
I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for the divorced and remarried, But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
The problem is the Church has preached for so long that remarriage = perpetual adultery that people are averse to the idea.
 
I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for remarried divorcees. But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
I haven’t voted in or even looked at the poll.

“Will you accept Communion for remarried divorcees?”

What does that mean? Which may be what you’re asking.

In the first place, big changes are unlikely. If anything, they might tweak the annulment process. It’s still a case of “You can’t get there from here”. The Church cannot reverse course.

If, hypothetically, there were any significant changes, it’s unlikely there would be a mass exodus from the Church. Where would the people go if they left?
 
Originally Posted by Seraphim73 View Post
The problem is the Church has preached for so long that remarriage = perpetual adultery that people are averse to the idea.
I have to say that I’ve been Catholic my whole life and thoroughly immersed in Catholic culture and I’ve never been aware of this spotlight on ‘perpetual adultery’. In these situations, the spotlight was always on the fact of the indissolubility of marriage not the state of soul of the people involved. No wonder the Church has an urgency to arrest this tide of spotlighting sinners to make a point.

I noticed early on the discussion people talking about how it is embarrassing to not go to Holy Communion according to your state. That just must be an American thing. I’ve never known that to be the case in my experience of lifelong Sunday Mass going. No one blinks an eyelid if someone hasn’t gone to Communion.
 
But that’s St Paul’s understanding. Christ Himself made no such distinction. That’s the point I’m trying to make. St Paul made and exception Christ did not so the Church can make an exception too.
He did not make an exception. It is clear he did not regard Christ’s law as applying for unbelievers. To say that he taught “Christ commands X, but I command NOT X” is to accuse the Apostle of a very sinful pride against his Lord. It is a false interpretation.
 
A second marriage is always sinful for everyone everywhere. That’s why lay persons who divorce are often excommunicated, especially the guilty party. And just like with murder and many other serious sins a person who has committed them cannot be ordained and if they are ordained they are defrocked.
How can you say it is sinful after death? When St. Paul says a person is free to marry after death and both Jesus and Paul say that marriage only binds for life? :confused: There is no sin involved in marrying when one is free to marry and one is free to marry if they have no spouse before God. And one has no spouse before God if their former spouse is dead. Why state it is a sin to do what God has not forbidden? Do you believe St. Paul was in error when he said a woman is free to marry once her husband dies???:confused::confused::confused:

Priests don’t marry because they are already consecrated to the Lord which is prior/superior commitment than marriage. it binds all priests. from those who are married when they are ordained and the celibate. when the spouse dies, that priest is just like the celibate priest with the same comittments. it is not because secon marriages is a sin in itself, it is because a consecratd person is not free to marry at all, whether first or 2nd marriage.
 
I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for remarried divorcees. But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
I originally posted the poll as a separate thread with the text at #515. It was moved here, getting split from the text which is now buried, so understandably there is some confusion as to what exactly it means.

The question is aimed at the high likelihood - in my estimation - of Communion for remarried divorcees being permitted after the next Synod in 2015. This can theoretically happen since Church teaching is not being directly altered, it is rather how that teaching is applied in practice that is changing. In that situation will faithful Catholics accept or reject what will be a disciplinary, not doctrinal, decision by Rome?
 
I originally posted the poll as a separate thread with the text at #515. It was moved here, getting split from the text which is now buried, so understandably there is some confusion as to what exactly it means.

The question is aimed at the high likelihood - in my estimation - of Communion for remarried divorcees being permitted after the next Synod in 2015. This can theoretically happen since Church teaching is not being directly altered, it is rather how that teaching is applied in practice that is changing. In that situation will faithful Catholics accept or reject what will be a disciplinary, not doctrinal, decision by Rome?
We have no choice but to pray and obey.🙂 A fundamentalist once threw in my face canons from a council from the middle ages commanding catholics to kill heretics and take away their property.:eek: He did this to counter my argument that church teaching is infallible and asked me why today’s church teaches that such a thing is sinful when an old council commanded it. My answer to him was that only the doctrinal teachings on faith and morals were infallible but not the disciplinary rules that issued forth. so the council may have been in error in the latter but not the former. we also used to sell indulgences and permit slavery of prisoners of war (not the atlantc trade which we were against from th beginning). I don’t see that situation you describe being all that different. we will just pray for an internal reformation and trust God.
 
We have no choice but to pray and obey.🙂
That’s the problem. To obey - which means to give one’s assent to Communion for remarried divorcees who have not regularised their situation - is simply impossible for a Catholic.

Let me reproduce here an earlier post giving my analysis of the Communion paragraph:52. The possibility of the divorced and remarried having access to the sacraments of Penance and the Eucharist was considered. Several Synod fathers insisted in favour of the current discipline, by virtue of the fundamental rapport between participation in the Eucharist and communion with the Church, and her teaching on the indissolubility of marriage. Others expressed a welcoming to the Eucharistic table that was not general, in certain particular situations and with strict conditions, especially in what concerns irreversible cases and related to moral obligations towards children who would endure unjust sufferings. The eventual access to the sacraments should be preceded by an accompanying penance under the responsibility of the diocesan bishop. The question must be further studied, bearing in mind the distinction between the objective situation of sin and extenuating circumstances, given that “the imputability and the responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified” by diverse “psychological or social factors” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1735)104 ayes, 74 noes = 58% in favour and 42% against.

I looked up the relevant section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church for context. Here it is:I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude. [172]

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach. [396, 1849, 2006]

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.” [Cf. Rom 6:17] [1803]

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts. [1036, 1804]

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors. Notice that this has got ***nothing ***to do with remarried divorcees receiving Communion. It’s about to what extent a decision to commit an evil act is freely made. In the heat of the moment are you acting out of deliberate choice or out of fear, peer pressure, an overwhelming impulse, mental disorder, or what?

A couple living together and who are not married are well aware of what they are doing and have had plenty of time to make it a deliberate choice. It’s not an act of a moment but a settled way of life. And ***nobody ***can engage in a sinful way of life and not sin. They may be troubled in conscience, they may wish they had not done it, but they are still in sin. A troubled conscience does not equate to good will, even less to sinlessness.

The current discipline (for the moment) of the Church permits Communion only for remarried divorcees who give evidence they are living as brother and sister. This is not what section 52 is talking about. Cardinal Kasper made clear that Communion was being considered for remarried divorcees who are having sexual relations. They are to be granted Confession and Communion without a radical change to their lives that eliminates sex and scandal.

If one believes in the two doctrines of the indissolubility of a consummated Catholic marriage and the obligation of communicants to be in a state of grace (both de fide incidentally), then it is impossible to square this section with the Faith. The only conclusion is that it permits, purely and simply, institutionalised sacrilege.
 
I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for remarried divorcees. But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
If the practice is changed, we don’t have to accept it as a good decision and can argue for a change in practice as it proponents are doing now (arguing for a change in practice). We just swap places. In the same way, we would not of had to accept the sale of indulgences as morally acceptable. Sometimes the Church makes pastoral mistakes.
 
Wonder who came up with that little gem
Egg-zactly.

People who don’t like the idea that divorce and re-marriage is adultery often forget that this Christ’s teaching.

They want to re-create a Jesus who conforms to their own personal preferences.

They act as if the Church made this teaching up to…well, I’m not sure exactly what benefit they think the Church gets in continuing to profess what Christ professed, even if it makes her reviled and scorned.

The Church is simply the messenger. She cannot edit Christ’s teachings to make them more palatable.
 
I have to say that I’ve been Catholic my whole life and thoroughly immersed in Catholic culture and I’ve never been aware of this spotlight on ‘perpetual adultery’.
Ignore the “perpetual adultery” part. That was rhetoric.

It’s simply adultery if you divorce and re-marry.

(If adultery can ever be “simply” adultery. 🤷)
 
If the practice is changed, we don’t have to accept it as a good decision and can argue for a change in practice as it proponents are doing now (arguing for a change in practice). We just swap places. In the same way, we would not of had to accept the sale of indulgences as morally acceptable. Sometimes the Church makes pastoral mistakes.
One can also simply decline to receive communion. 🤷
 
Because the Spirit does not contradict Himself.
It would not have to be a contradiction. One may disagree with the conclusions and direction Cardinal Kaspar is wanting to go, but it he has said or proposed nothing heretical.
 
Well, let’s see: we have the Pauline Privilege, and the Petrine Privilege. Those are both of Apostolic origin. For some reason, the Church has not seen fit to make additional exceptions over the course of 2,000 years, most likely because she did not believe she was authorized to do so.
Both Peter and Paul had the authority after the resurrection. Pope Francis walks in Peter’s shoes and holds the same authority to bind and loose. I have heard no one in the Catholic Church suggest this authority was only to last one generation. The Church is just as apostolic now as then.

I would say the reason nothing else has been added is nothing else has been needed or deemed acceptable. Can that change? That is the question. This century has already seen the acceptance and good of a pluralistic society as enabling a free choice for faith. Humanity does learn a few new things from time to time, some good, some evil. This is precisely why we have active authority, as opposed to our Protestant brothers.
 
I’m finding it confusing that as of the moment I’m posting, 65% in the poll are answering they will not accept Communion for remarried divorcees. But lets say the Holy Father eventually ends up being in favor and whatever needs to be done is done to make this change a reality. Wouldn’t faithful Catholics be bound to accept it?
Not really as each of us still has to deal with our individual consciences on the matter. The reality is that we can’t really stop those who persist in scandal. The Vatican may sugarcoat the matter but bad example is bad example. Not unless you want your kids to grow up thinking divorcing and remarriage and divorcing and remarriage is okay until they’re satisfied with their partner.
 
That’s the problem. To obey - which means to give one’s assent to Communion for remarried divorcees who have not regularised their situation - is simply impossible for a Catholic.

Let me reproduce here an earlier post giving my analysis of the Communion paragraph:52. The possibility of the divorced and remarried having access to the sacraments of Penance and the Eucharist was considered. Several Synod fathers insisted in favour of the current discipline, by virtue of the fundamental rapport between participation in the Eucharist and communion with the Church, and her teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.
Others expressed a welcoming to the Eucharistic table that was not general, in certain particular situations and with strict conditions, especially in what concerns irreversible cases and related to moral obligations towards children who would endure unjust sufferings. The eventual access to the sacraments should be preceded by an accompanying penance under the responsibility of the diocesan bishop. The question must be further studied, bearing in mind the distinction between the objective situation of sin and extenuating circumstances, given that “the imputability and the responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified” by diverse “psychological or social factors” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1735)104 ayes, 74 noes = 58% in favour and 42% against.
. . . .

A couple living together and who are not married are well aware of what they are doing and have had plenty of time to make it a deliberate choice. It’s not an act of a moment but a settled way of life. And ***nobody ***can engage in a sinful way of life and not sin. They may be troubled in conscience, they may wish they had not done it, but they are still in sin. A troubled conscience does not equate to good will, even less to sinlessness.

The current discipline (for the moment) of the Church permits Communion only for remarried divorcees who give evidence they are living as brother and sister. This is not what section 52 is talking about. Cardinal Kasper made clear that Communion was being considered for remarried divorcees who are having sexual relations. They are to be granted Confession and Communion without a radical change to their lives that eliminates sex and scandal.

If one believes in the two doctrines of the indissolubility of a consummated Catholic marriage and the obligation of communicants to be in a state of grace (both de fide incidentally), then it is impossible to square this section with the Faith. The only conclusion is that it permits, purely and simply, institutionalised sacrilege.
I’ve read over that bolded part several times, and it still makes no sense to me. It seems to put forth a lot of words concerning “certain situations,” and “with strict conditions,” that the existence of a presumed valid prior marriage may be disregarded for pastoral reasons.

Strict conditions or certain situations nothwithstanding, that simply opens the door to widespread Catholic divorce and will encourage it, while confusing marriage doctrine to the point of incomprehensibility.
 
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