C
contemplative
Guest
Here is a good reflection on today’s Gospel reading.
YOUR LIFESAVING INVESTMENT Read here
Correct me if I am wrong …please…
Jesus is not talking about hourly wages or salaries in the form of $$$ here.
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YOUR LIFESAVING INVESTMENT Read here
Correct me if I am wrong …please…
Jesus is not talking about hourly wages or salaries in the form of $$$ here.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Sheesh, just becuase there are bad actors, we should throw the baby out with the bath water? Hiring Religious Ed Directors, youth ministers, etc. can be vital components for spreading the Good News. All it requires is the Priest excersises his canonical authority to run the parish from top to bottom. And as lay people, we need to be more supportive and not criticize him over the trivial as so many of these threads seem to do.
Additionally, your continueal admonition of reading Keatings letter “carefully” is insulting. I read it the first time you told me to. However, just because there are abuses doesn’t then mean that a simple-minded response of eliminating every lay role and responsibility is wise.
Brad, I apologize that I used the word “business” as it must have confused you. The Church has many obligations (Feed my sheep is one of them) that are both spiritual and temporal. In either case, it is a sin to not do so effectively and efficiently as to do otherwise is to abrogate stewardship.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
But entire systems should not be tossed out the window because of certain abuses to the system. Weed out the abusers, certainly, but that’s all that is required.
The parish priests do need the help they get in order to properly tend to their sheep. The key is providing them with good, orthodox help.
C
contemplative
Guest
Read here
Bishop Vasa has the right idea. This is not the norm in all places. Hopefully the Bishop’s guidelines for lay workers will include a public affirmation requirement from all layworkers on the payroll. I do worry. If the Bishops could not keep track of their vowed priests in recent years, how do they expect to keep track of a layperson who claims ‘good intent’?
Orion the Hunter,
I am sorry if you are insulted. It seemed to me that you were overlooking the seriousness of the abuses involved and I desired to bring it to your attention.
B
Brad
Guest
I don’t think inefficeint stewardship equates to abrogating it. I also don’t believe it is a sin (if you can point to Church teaching that says otherwise then I stand corrected).
It is great to have laity help out but they should not be performing duties that are the responsibility of priests. Too often, laity are overly concerned with taking on a responsibility fitted to a priest or other religious when they should be more concerned with supporting and raising holy Catholic families out of which more pirests and religious will come.
B
Brad
Guest
What they need is less help in some areas(those related to liturgy, sacraments, and decision making regarding teaching) and more help in other areas (those related to administrative functions, social services, and fellowship).
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
I would tend to agree.
You know what bugs me most about EMHCs (please take no offense those of you who serve such a worthy ministry)…is that the need for them stems not from the priest shortage, but by our impatience.
I love that the opportunity to serve as an EMHC is present today because I consider it a most honorable way to serve the Lord, but really, if we didn’t have them what is the worst that would happen? The lines to communion would be long and we’d have to go through 3 hymns instead of 1. Can you imagine how horrible that would be
The next scheduled mass would have a late start but that too is a problem which kind of creates the need for EMHCs…Offer 2 masses instead of 5…don’t scheduled them 1 hour apart thus requiring EMHCs and the Eucharist part to be rushed through (and I do feel it is rushed through particularly once the priest sits down - I’d like us to be able to sit an reflect a bit longer, but no, there’s a mad rush to get those closing announcements out and give the blessing).
Anyway…my :twocents:
C
contemplative
Guest
You might also find this 2003 Religion and Ethics story about Catholic lay ministers interesting.
Here are two short excerpts.
The question of what do with lay ministers presses heavily on the US Catholic Church. Does any one know if lay ministers and how to deal with them is an issue in other parts of the world or is it a problem and concern unique to US Bishops?
C
contemplative
Guest
Your concerns are completely valid in my book. My :twocents:I would tend to agree.
You know what bugs me most about EMHCs (please take no offense those of you who serve such a worthy ministry)…is that the need for them stems not from the priest shortage, but by our impatience.
I love that the opportunity to serve as an EMHC is present today because I consider it a most honorable way to serve the Lord, but really, if we didn’t have them what is the worst that would happen? The lines to communion would be long and we’d have to go through 3 hymns instead of 1. Can you imagine how horrible that would be
The next scheduled mass would have a late start but that too is a problem which kind of creates the need for EMHCs…Offer 2 masses instead of 5…don’t scheduled them 1 hour apart thus requiring EMHCs and the Eucharist part to be rushed through (and I do feel it is rushed through particularly once the priest sits down - I’d like us to be able to sit an reflect a bit longer, but no, there’s a mad rush to get those closing announcements out and give the blessing).
Anyway…my :twocents:
B
Brad
Guest
Amen. I completely agree. We need to cut them at least in half.I would tend to agree.
You know what bugs me most about EMHCs (please take no offense those of you who serve such a worthy ministry)…is that the need for them stems not from the priest shortage, but by our impatience.
I love that the opportunity to serve as an EMHC is present today because I consider it a most honorable way to serve the Lord, but really, if we didn’t have them what is the worst that would happen? The lines to communion would be long and we’d have to go through 3 hymns instead of 1. Can you imagine how horrible that would be
The next scheduled mass would have a late start but that too is a problem which kind of creates the need for EMHCs…Offer 2 masses instead of 5…don’t scheduled them 1 hour apart thus requiring EMHCs and the Eucharist part to be rushed through (and I do feel it is rushed through particularly once the priest sits down - I’d like us to be able to sit an reflect a bit longer, but no, there’s a mad rush to get those closing announcements out and give the blessing).
Anyway…my :twocents:
3 hymns would be great. And my biggest hang up:
The priest should be the only and last person on the altar and the last to sit down after he has full knowledge that Jesus has been properly taken care of.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Regarding my assertion that failing to be good stewards is sinful:
From teh Catechism:
2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men’s labor. For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property. Christian life strives to order this world’s goods to God and to fraternal charity.
But there is a bigger picture to remember that goes beyond a single quote I found in the Catechism. The Church takes seriously the the admonition by Christ from Mathew 25:31-46 (includes “whatsoever you did for the least of my brothers . . .”) and so it builds hospitals, schools, soup kitchens and other institutions of charity. The delivery of these ministries cost of money. To deliver them inefficiently would require additional economic resources to do the same amount of good or with the same amount of resources, less good would be done. It is an obligation of the Church to maximize its resources when running schools and hospitals and other such institutions.
The responsibility of the parish to run itself effieciently is the same thing. Every dollar we spend for religious education has to be prudently spent so we don’t starve other worthy programs as the resources are only so great. Similarly, to the extent that we efficiently meet the needs of religious education, the more resources we have for funding the soup kitchen, etc.
In both cases, to run it poorly is effectively in violation of the CC2401 quoted above as our lack of diligence to stewardship diminishes the effectiveness of the gifts given to the Church by its members.
Finally, I have a real affinity for the temporal works of the Church. I recall a testimony at our Parish by a former Baptist minister. He talked about how there was so much institutional pressure in his denomination to “demonize” the Catholic Church. But he kept seeing the good works in our community (hospital, Catholic school system focused on the Gospel way of life, soup kitchen, day shelter for women and children in abuse situation, counseling services, Pregnancy Crisis center which are all open to the public regardless of religious persuasion) and he kept being drawn to scripture that we will know who the False Prophets are by their fruits.
Or a friend of mine who is now Catholic. He didn’t turn to the faith for theological reasons (the Holy Spirit converted his heart over time) but because he saw all the good we did. He remarked that he was in awe how we responded to the appeals of our Bishop to make a difference in the realm of social needs. The eureka moment for him was when his minister admitted that if their congregational effort on a charity issue was to be successful, they would have to involve the Catholic community.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Nothing I said or advocate is to promote the assumption of responsibilities that are solely that of an ordained Priest. However, in today’s world, there is so many needs that we have to relieve the Priest of things that can be done by laity.
Liturgy is an area that appears to be a big issue. Our parish has a liturgy committee. They serve at the pleasure and direction of the Pastor. However, they relieve him of virtually every aspect of planning and coordinating decorating for the season, music, and many other details (I’m not involved in this area so I don’t know all they do). If they propose something or even do something improper, our Pastor corrects them immediately. Their submission and loyalty to him is such that the mistake is never repeated. This type of lay assistance goes thruout our parish.
We have a Welcoming Committee that concentrates on doing things to welcome new members. We have an Evangalization Committee that concentrates on efforts that reach out to fallen away Catholics or people of other faiths or the unchurched. We have several social service committees. We have an Education Committee that concentrates on Adult and Youth Catechesis. We have many other committees. All of them allow our Pastor to concentrate on being Pastor.
To the extent parishes have problems, it first starts with the Priest exercising his authority imbedded in Canon Law that he is the Shepherd of the Parish. Everything done under his watch is expected to conform to Church Teaching and Directive. If he fails here, he will answer for it when he meets Jesus in heaven.
But it also requires us to be available to assist the Parish. I’m reminded of a situation a few years ago. There was a “malcontent” who was alway criticizing Father and a committee I chaired. I wanted to “shoot the guy”. Instead, Father told me to ask him to join the committee. After he came to understand the challenges, he became Father’s best supporter.
If you want things to change, get involved. Make it easier for the Pastor to replace those w/ “agendas”. Make a difference. Submit and obey your Pastor. Set an example.
C
contemplative
Guest
This does not always happen…it seems so wrong when the priest has finished ‘distribution’ and he plops in his chair while the EMHC ‘finishes’ up…
this is exactly what rolls off my mind when I see this happen.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Ying, I hate to disagree with you. We have three Masses. If we had to go to two Masses, we’d not be able to fit everyone in the worship space. We don’t have the parking for Mass to go beyond an hour as people have to get in and out. We lost our parking because of the blessing that we needed to double the size of our elementary school 10 years ago. For those that want to stay after, we remind them that the Chapel is available (and empty) after Mass. It isn’t ideal but there is no real alternative unless we want to force people to go to another parish. And since our parish is alive and we are a beacon on the Hill, we consider this to be a problem we like having!
C
contemplative
Guest
This order applies to all Catholics. What makes this difficult is when one finds they are answering and obeying a ‘hired’ lay minister. This is another area where difficulties can and do arise. These lay ministers can know much less than the average ‘joe’ in the pew. I have a perfect personal example of this and would like to share but supposedly forum users are to avoid personal ‘stories’ we can’t cite.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
I have no trouble answering an obeying a lay minister. Sometimes I have to put up w/ certain “irritations” as in the big picture, failure to submit can undercut the authority of the Priest. They are lay and not as educated as a Priest. I then talk to the person in private about the issue. I’ve found that in nearly all cases the problem is inadvertent and with no ill-intent or malice. This happened in RCIA class by our Rel Ed. Director (who has a theology degree from Ave Maria University) as she mispoke on Catholic Teaching. She appreciated that I didn’t take her to task in public as she is young, insecure, and trying to establish herself. She specifically readdressed the issue the next class. If the lay minister persists, I take it up w/ my Pastor. I then submit to his judgment on the action he takes or doesn’t take.
B
Brad
Guest
I don’t see this paragraph tied to stewardship, let alone “inefficient stewardship”.
Absolutely. They should be efficient in these endeavors and institutions.
This is where we are starting to disagree. In the parish, all resources must go to teaching correctly. If there are some left over, then they can go to chariable work. It is the fruits of living out proper instruction that lead the faithful into charitable work. Without proper instruction and faith, the work is outside of Christ and will not bear fruit. If people are adequately instructed and provided the sacraments in the parish, then they can go out into the world spreading the Gospel by tything to help the poor, volunteering in soup kitchens and hospitals, building houses, assisting in crisis pregnancy centers etc. If a parish group wants to organize one of these ministries then so be it. But use the funds of those that wnat to be part of the ministry, not the general church funds.
I agree. Great testimonies. But the fruit will only come out of repentance based on the Gospel. Proper instruciton and sacramental grace is essential. Our fruits will wither and die if the confession lines are small, our masses are not reverent, and our prayer meetings are few and we lose sight of the holiness of God.
And we must be authentically lead by (and by implication submit to) a priest in union with the Magisterium of the Church.
C
contemplative
Guest
Seeing we are giving examples … here are the two worst…
A youth/college campus lay minister conducted a Communion Service in the absence of a priest…there was ‘open’ homily time in which all were welcome to share their thoughts…at Communion time he lead everyone in self-communicating or passing the cup around
another one
A female pastoral assistant/homilygiver said that it was not only OK that her husband masturbated into a petri dish to give sperm for the conception of their child but it was OK to take the risk of fertilizing many eggs for her one little one.
Now…it is really hard for me to buck these people because they are held in such high esteem in the parishes they serve…
to all this I say…http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/ginnyroc/sicksmiley.gif
I am not going to start kowtowing to a bunch of layministers I have absolutely no respect for.
B
Brad
Guest
This is good and the way it should be. I don’t know if you realize it is becoming increasingly unusual and that is why we are so concerned when we hear about lay ministers.
All excellent except the Pastor should head and participate in the Education Committee (maybe he does). It sounds overall that he is pretty good.
Amen. I would add that souls suffer as a result as well.
I agree. Again, though, there really are some pastors that I believe I could not obey while pleasing Christ and His Church. It is an unfortunate and sad fact. Most of the time though you are correct.
B
Brad
Guest
Violations of canon law and magisterial teaching should be documented and taken to the individual first, pastor second, Bishop third, and Vatican fourth.
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