U.S. Catholic bishops issue guidelines for lay workers

YinYangMom · Nov 16, 2005

Orionthehunter:

Ying, I hate to disagree with you. We have three Masses. If we had to go to two Masses, we’d not be able to fit everyone in the worship space. We don’t have the parking for Mass to go beyond an hour as people have to get in and out. We lost our parking because of the blessing that we needed to double the size of our elementary school 10 years ago. For those that want to stay after, we remind them that the Chapel is available (and empty) after Mass. It isn’t ideal but there is no real alternative unless we want to force people to go to another parish. And since our parish is alive and we are a beacon on the Hill, we consider this to be a problem we like having!

Orion, disagreement is good, it promotes discussion and thinking outside the box for me, so never feel it necessary to apologize to me for disagreeing. Thanks, just the same, for being so considerate

Oh yeah…worship space…that’s probably why they came up with more masses in the first place, huh?

See? it was good that
you posted in disagreement with me

We don’t have parking either for fewer masses, and our church too would become overcrowded…but it still seems we are adding EMHCs to accommodate logistical problems rather than dealing with the problems themselves, and I still think the EMHC issue is not a matter of the priest shortage as much as it is about logistics for the parishioners. Guess there’s no real good solution though. sigh

YinYangMom · Nov 16, 2005

Brad:

This is where we are starting to disagree. In the parish, all resources must go to teaching correctly. If there are some left over, then they can go to chariable work. It is the fruits of living out proper instruction that lead the faithful into charitable work. Without proper instruction and faith, the work is outside of Christ and will not bear fruit. If people are adequately instructed and provided the sacraments in the parish, then they can go out into the world spreading the Gospel by tything to help the poor, volunteering in soup kitchens and hospitals, building houses, assisting in crisis pregnancy centers etc. If a parish group wants to organize one of these ministries then so be it. But use the funds of those that wnat to be part of the ministry, not the general church funds.

Is it written that the Church’s first expense must be toward education and if any funds are left then they go to charity?

Ours is a tithing parish so charity gets a percentage every time. The priorities are operating expenses for the Church so that masses can be held (utilities, worhip books, music books, linens, albs, candles, etc.). That includes the salaries of those who oversee those areas.

Next I would imagine would be funds to support sacramental preparation, which could be done in a number of ways - direct the parents to buy books and teach at home, offer sacramental instruction at the parish over x number of weeks, or a full blown RE program.

Then I suppose would come an RCIA program, but is that mandatory for every parish if programs are available at a diocese or a neighboring parish?

contemplative · Nov 16, 2005

Brad:

Violations of canon law and magisterial teaching should be documented and taken to the individual first, pastor second, Bishop third, and Vatican fourth.

It is tough to document a personal conversation.

A female pastoral assistant/homilygiver said that it was not only OK that her husband masturbated into a petri dish to give sperm for the conception of their child but it was OK to take the risk of fertilizing many eggs for her one little one.

A youth/college campus lay minister conducted a Communion Service in the absence of a priest…there was ‘open’ homily time in which all were welcome to share their thoughts…at Communion time he lead everyone in self-communicating or passing the cup around

With this one I am thumping my fingers on the table…since my complaint he has acquired an additional parish/youth group to oversee. As far as I know…no changes on his part have evolved.

Sometimes it seems like a bizarre and endless road for me. At any rate I see no worthy reason to elevate the status of people who are doing what they are suppose to do. YOUR LIFESAVING INVESTMENT

YinYangMom · Nov 16, 2005

Brad:

This is good and the way it should be. I don’t know if you realize it is becoming increasingly unusual and that is why we are so concerned when we hear about lay ministers.

It would help then, when you post your concerns if you’d specifiy your concern is with the direction over lay ministers rather than with the idea of having lay ministers at all.

Lay ministers are good to have.
Improper instruction and mangagment of a parish’s lay ministers is not.

contemplative · Nov 16, 2005

Here is another concern we all should recognize derived from another situation I witnessed some 10 years ago.

An older woman…but not too old…her kids were all young adults…had a job…a regular 9-5 M-f job she had invested her time in…she made a choice to leave this secular job to train for pastoral assistant…well when she finally did acquire a position in my parish a new priest moved in and for some reason simply did not like her…bad turned to the worst and she was ‘let go’.
Let me tell you hell had not much more fury than this woman. She was mad

for many reasons …she left her accrued time at her secular job…spent time training in the seminary to work in that parish…her parish…only to have a priest come in and black ball her (according to her). I am not defending her or the priest. I am just trying to show you the complications that are arising as we elevate these Ecclesial Lay Ministers to a status they have no business taking.

Other_Eric · Nov 16, 2005

puzzleannie:

no lay minister has the right or faculty to witness weddings or conduct baptisms, except in possibly the most extreme conditions of mission territory,

You disagree with the Holy See in this matter.

Can. 1112 §1. Where there is a lack of priests and deacons, the diocesan bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, with the previous favorable vote of the conference of bishops and after he has obtained the permission of the Holy See.

§2. A suitable lay person is to be selected, who is capable of giving instruction to those preparing to be married and able to perform the matrimonial liturgy properly.

contemplative · Nov 17, 2005

During an initial presentation of the document Nov. 14 and again in the debate before voting on it Nov. 15, several bishops questioned the use of the term “lay ecclesial minister,” suggesting a danger that Catholics may not understand clearly the difference between lay ministry and the ministry proper only to those who are ordained.

Bishop Robert J. Baker of Charleston, S.C., argued that the church would be better served if the term “ministry” were restricted to those who are ordained. He asked that “roles of service” replace “ministry” in the phrase “lay ecclesial ministry” throughout the document.

Bishop Melczek said describing certain lay activities in the church as ministries is grounded in official church documents.

Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn, N.Y., asked that the document be remanded to the committee with a request that it be reviewed by the Committee on Doctrine before coming to the bishops for a vote. **He said he did not have a problem with the word “ministry,” but with using “minister” to describe some lay people. **

**Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark, N.J., also urged that “the word ‘minister’ be used as little as possible except when (referring) to the ordained.” **

Bishop Blase J. Cupich of Rapid City, S.D., opposed returning the document to the committee, saying its use of minister and ministry followed the clear practice of the church and official church documents. He added that the drafting committee “has done yeoman service” in consulting extensively in developing the document.

Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk of Cincinnati pointed out that the members of the doctrine committee were involved in the consultations leading up to the text the bishops were considering. “We could consult ourselves into immobility,” he said.

In a voice vote the bishops clearly rejected the proposal to return the document to committee.

Read more

At this point only time will tell the trouble this approval will cause. Looks like water over the damn…

Brad · Nov 17, 2005

YinYangMom:

It would help then, when you post your concerns if you’d specifiy your concern is with the direction over lay ministers rather than with the idea of having lay ministers at all.

Lay ministers are good to have.
Improper instruction and mangagment of a parish’s lay ministers is not.

I think my posts have clearly pointed in that direction. I am a lay minister. I’m not criticizing the idea. I am criticizing the overuse, the motives of some lay ministers and pastors, and pastors that allow lay ministers to role over their responsibilities.

contemplative · Nov 17, 2005

This 2003 Religion & Ethics article/video parallels this thread quite well and is thought provoking…where is the US Catholic Church just 2 years after the publishing of this article/video.

ABERNETHY: U.S. bishops have often been what he calls “disgracefully slow” to respond to problems. Steinfels charges that the bishops are too timid, too subservient to the Vatican.

Mr. STEINFELS: Again and again, they have tended to look over their shoulder toward Rome and the Vatican rather than look right in front of their faces to what was happening in the Church.

Mr. STEINFELS: What I am concerned about is that people not just wait upon the bishops, or wait upon a new pope or a change in the Vatican – that there is a lot that can be done by laypeople independently.

Mr. STEINFELS: My hope is that we can build and strengthen the kind of infrastructure that will be the platform and the vehicle for the work of grace and the individual heroism. And if we can set that in place, maybe a lot of the 21st century will take care of itself.

oat_soda · Nov 17, 2005

if anything, this will further push young men away from the priesthood. this will basically make the priesthood seem unimportant as more and more lay people take their responsiblities. but then again, maybe these diocese have no choice thanks to luke-warm catholicism for the past 50 years.

contemplative · Nov 18, 2005

contemplative:

Here is another concern we all should recognize derived from another situation I witnessed some 10 years ago.

An older woman…but not too old…her kids were all young adults…had a job…a regular 9-5 M-f job she had invested her time in…she made a choice to leave this secular job to train for pastoral assistant…well when she finally did acquire a position in my parish a new priest moved in and for some reason simply did not like her…bad turned to the worst and she was ‘let go’.
Let me tell you hell had not much more fury than this woman. She was mad for many reasons …she left her accrued time at her secular job…spent time training in the seminary to work in that parish…her parish…only to have a priest come in and black ball her (according to her). I am not defending her or the priest. I am just trying to show you the complications that are arising as we elevate these Ecclesial Lay Ministers to a status they have no business taking.

Multiply the authentic situation posted above by…

The bishops approved new rules and expectations for the American church’s 30,632 "lay ecclesial ministers

and what do you get? A disaster.

Disaster X 30,632 = One really big mess

Orionthehunter · Nov 18, 2005

contemplative:

Multiply the authentic situation posted above by…

and what do you get? A disaster.

Disaster X 30,632 = One really big mess

Are you suggesting that we abolish Directors of Religious Education (paid or unpaid), Youth Directors (paid or unpaid), Extra-ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Liturgical Directors, parochial school teachers*, those who deliver the Eucharist to the home-bound, etc.? Now that would be a mess.

In my mind, the answer is not to repudiate or eliminate these opportunities for the laity to contribute to the Body of Christ but the answer is:

The Dioceses/USCCB have clear standards and expectations for these lay ministers.
The Dioceses dedicate sufficient resources to advise Pastors/Parishes on these matters and respond when problems come to their attention.
The Priests and Parish Pastoral Councils** have a good understanding of the standards and expectations.

*our diocese requires that any teacher where the class subject includes religion (all elementary teachers are in this class) not of a religious order or ordained be a lay minister (I don’t know the requirements to get the designation but they inclde they be Catholic, recieve certain training and pledge to teach consistent w/ Church Teaching).

** Parish Pastoral Councils are required by Canon Law and I believe that one of their responsibilities is to not only advise the Pastor but they have some authority to monitor conformance of their Parish to Church Teaching, Doctrine, and Directives.

In my opinion so many of the posts that are critical of their parish and its practices indicate one or both of two things:

They are frustrated by their attempts to be involved and make improvements. I feel for you. But don’t give up. Persistence is a virtue. I think that the Pope and Bishops grasp the problems and are beginning to discuss and take action. These problems didn’t develop overnight and their correction will take time.
They have a perception that is the result of observation only and not from direct involvement. I am blessed to have the time to be very active in my parish. I’m on our Finance Council, I am on the RCIA team, I teach CCD in my home, I’ve served on our parish school board, I’ve had children involved in the choirs. My wife is involved in her areas of interest.

By being involved, I’ve come to understand that much of the issues and abuses are well-intentioned and the result of poor catechesis. Correction more easily and effectively comes about by witnessing and informing with the tender heart of Jesus and not admonition, condemnation or criticism without positive suggestions.

Additionally, even the “errant” Priests need to be approached w/ the tender heart of Jesus. They are the product and victim of the poor catechesis and the misplaced “spirit of VII” philosophy. Now after doing something one way since ordination, they are being asked to change. Change isn’t easy for most people. We need to understand (not accept) this can be a challenge for our Priests. They have the same weak human nature we do. We need to assist and support them to make the change in the same way we expect to be Pastorally confronted with a need to change.

contemplative · Nov 18, 2005

Orionthehunter:

Are you suggesting that we abolish Directors of Religious Education (paid or unpaid), Youth Directors (paid or unpaid), Extra-ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Liturgical Directors, parochial school teachers*, those who deliver the Eucharist to the home-bound, etc.? Now that would be a mess. No No No No and No

They are frustrated by their attempts to be involved and make improvements. I feel for you. But don’t give up.

Here is where I think we don’t see eye to eye. I know you do not want to discuss the thread I was pushing back on post #15 ( I think 15) but the problem in my diocese is that it is home to a seminary for lay training unorthodox ministers. This process has been going on for 30 years. What we have now is a network of hired people who echo the sentiments of groups like VOTF. This diocese is in a gridlock of liberal priests and layministers. There is no budging and any attempt to become involved means nothing but head banging aching pain.
My concern is that the new guidelines being issued contain loopholes for these liberal people which will help further their agenda.
All is not the same as what you see in the Great Plains, USA.

Orionthehunter · Nov 18, 2005

contemplative:

Here is where I think we don’t see eye to eye. I know you do not want to discuss the thread I was pushing back on post #15 ( I think 15) but the problem in my diocese is that it is home to a seminary for lay training unorthodox ministers. This process has been going on for 30 years. What we have now is a network of hired people who echo the sentiments of groups like VOTF. This diocese is in a gridlock of liberal priests and layministers. There is no budging and any attempt to become involved means nothing but head banging aching pain.
My concern is that the new guidelines being issued contain loopholes for these liberal people which will help further their agenda.
All is not the same as what you see in the Great Plains, USA.

And everything I see are indications of getting thisunder control. the Pope, Vatican and Bishops are giving attention to colleges, seminaries and lay workers. While wishing that it could happen overnight, I know it can’t. I’m grateful they are taking action and I stand ready to support them as needed.

And while it may look like the issue is easy-executive fiat, that is not the best solution if it isn’t coupled with catechesis and a pastoral approach. These misguided policies, practices, and “theologies” are the result of years of neglect and reinforcement. We now have an entire generation who only know this way. Change is hard for some people. It takes a conversion of heart and sometimes the Holy Spirit works on a timeframe different than me.

I think it is becoming clear on what needs to be done. Let’s allow the Bishops the time to discern how to do it and with what measures. And then trust their discernment.

contemplative · Nov 18, 2005

Orionthehunter:

Change is hard for some people. It takes a conversion of heart and sometimes the Holy Spirit works on a timeframe different than me.

I think it is becoming clear on what needs to be done. Let’s allow the Bishops the time to discern how to do it and with what measures. And then trust their discernment.

My eyes and heart are wide open and I see this is all there is. This and my meager prayers for mercy.

contemplative · Nov 18, 2005

I want to point out that VOTF are delighted to see these guidelines approved. This is evidence of a greater lurking danger.

VOTF expressed hope that the Bishops’ report on Lay Ecclesial Ministry “Co-workers in the Vineyard of the Lord” will truly call upon the talents of lay people for significant participation in Church affairs.

“Lay involvement has never been more important than it is now, with dramatic and growing priests shortages,” said Ward. “How will they strengthen lay involvement? How will they use existing structures such as Parish Councils, Parish Finance Councils, Diocesan Finance Councils? How will the report be turned into action? The laity is not going away,” said Ward. "Voice of the Faithful members look forward to having a significant role as co-workers in the vineyard,” said Gaile Pohlhaus, VOTF secretary and a member of the theology faculty at Villanova University. A recently released independent survey of VOTF membership conducted by Catholic University of America professors Dr. William D’Antonio and Rev. Anthony Pogorelc revealed an extremely high percentage of involvement by VOTF members both at the parish and diocesan levels. The survey found that half were members of Parish Councils, 45% were on Liturgy Committees and one in four served on Parish School Boards or Finance Committees

U.S. Catholic bishops issue guidelines for lay workers

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