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triumphguy
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Yes, those Capuchins always were a little suspect
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Julia_Mae
Guest
During the depression a lot of young Catholic girls that families could not feed were shoved into teaching orders to fill positions at Catholic schools. One I know was 14 when she was sent. She was given no instruction, just sent to classroom of 2nd graders and told to be their teacher. I’ve heard more than a few stories like this. By the 50s, these girls had become the adult and future leaders of their orders or congregations. By the 60s they found the chutzpah to get out of a life they never chose for themselves and that was often abusive and degrading to them.
If the Church doesn’t like where some of these women got to, the Church should look to itself and it’s treatment of them in the past. They didn’t spring full-grown from the head of Hera.
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Elizabeth502
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OK, Brother. So I think you’ve explained yourself very, very well. (On this and on other threads) The distinction is clear between the autonomy of Religious Orders/Congregations and the ordinary authority structures in the Church (such as the episcopate).
With all due respect, I believe you have mischaracterized much of the laity, or at least certainly the concerns expressed by some CAF’ers.
I don’t think most people are such ‘control freaks’ that they’re interested in having some random bishop micro-manage an order of vowed religious because someone has a weird personality, behaves oddly, or the Order has certainly behavioral eccenctricities. And least of all would they want to “push a button and have religious disappear.” (I’m not sure where that concept came from.)
We have been raised to understand that authentic doctrine rests with the Holy See because the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Roman Church. Orders may be free to govern themselves and wear elevator shoes for all anyone cares, but the teaching of any theology which is radically heterodox would be a legitimate concern of the average powerless lay Catholic in universities, theology schools, secondary schools – and yes, even at Mass. I have never met or corresponded with any other Catholic who was interested in having any member of an Order reined in for any other reason than that. (Incidentally, some Orders do invite lay preaching during the Mass during their Masses open to the general public. I guess the local bishop also has no control over that?)
With all due respect, I believe you have mischaracterized much of the laity, or at least certainly the concerns expressed by some CAF’ers.
I don’t think most people are such ‘control freaks’ that they’re interested in having some random bishop micro-manage an order of vowed religious because someone has a weird personality, behaves oddly, or the Order has certainly behavioral eccenctricities. And least of all would they want to “push a button and have religious disappear.” (I’m not sure where that concept came from.)We have been raised to understand that authentic doctrine rests with the Holy See because the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Roman Church. Orders may be free to govern themselves and wear elevator shoes for all anyone cares, but the teaching of any theology which is radically heterodox would be a legitimate concern of the average powerless lay Catholic in universities, theology schools, secondary schools – and yes, even at Mass. I have never met or corresponded with any other Catholic who was interested in having any member of an Order reined in for any other reason than that. (Incidentally, some Orders do invite lay preaching during the Mass during their Masses open to the general public. I guess the local bishop also has no control over that?)
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JimG
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There are still some orders which are dedicated to teaching. Here’s the newsletter from one of them, with some nice photos:
sistersihmofwichita.org/pdf/rejoice_winter10.pdf
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JReducation
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You would be surprised. Read TC Forum and some of the other Traditionalists sites on the net. There is a mental image of what a religious should be, do and look like. There is a desire to control and even dictate to them. However, we’re slipping away from the original letter.With all due respect, I believe you have mischaracterized much of the laity, or at least certainly the concerns expressed by some CAF’ers.
Again, you should go to TC Forum or other sites. There are people who want the sisters taken out and flogged for not wearing a habit, a priest for not wearing a cassock, or a religious community for closing a parish that the bishop cannot pick up and that the religious can no longer run.
Having said that, this does not mean that teaching error is allowed either. People certainly need to complain to the proper authorities. This should be addressed by those who have the authority to do so.
It depends, if it’s one of the big four, no he does not. Only the superior does. That’s part of the laws that govern different levels of religious life. For example, Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans and Benedictines only run a parish if the bishop surrenders control to the major superior. He must go through the major superior, not through the local superior. The religious agree to care for the parish and try not to bother the bishop too much. It works well for both, especially in a diocese where the bishop is overwhelmed or in one where the distances are great and the bishop cannot be available too easily.
Again, that has nothing to do with the letter.
The reason that we got into this discussion about the orders and congregations was because someone said that what happened to the LCWR could not happen to the Franciscans, implying that they Franciscans would not put up with it. I was trying to help that person and any other who thought this to be true, to see that such is not the case. The case is that the infrastructure is very different. The likelihood of this happening to one of the orders is very remote, whereas it’s more possible with the sisters, because they are not governed by a rule.
The orders of men can play an important role in resolving this problem, because they bring to the table an experience that the bishops do not have, unless the bishop is a religious and experience that the sisters don’t have either. The male religious can certainly be good resources, if they are tapped.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Elizabeth502
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Thanks, but that’s not my concern. I’m sure the TC’ers are wonderful people, and contribute wonderfully to our Catholic body, but theirs are not the concern I was addressing, which is below.
Who would be…? (If they are One of the Big Four, it would be the Superior General of their Order, only?)
And if they’re not One of the Big Four, to whom would a lay Catholic address concerns about the teaching of actual heterodoxy?
Mind you, I mysef have no current pressing interest in such a complaint!
However, I do sympathize and empathize with lay people in a position of dependency on their teachers in Catholic settings. The laity has a right to hear the truth, consistent with doctrine, from its religious representatives.And you’re right: It has nothing to do with The Letter. However, I think it’s an important offshoot because it does pertain to the whole issue you have well elaborated on regarding structures and autonomy and lines of authority, which is an aspect of this thread.
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iloveangels
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Cinette,*I go to three different Parishes and one of them is Jesuit. I find Jesuits very permissive. Recently I forwarded an email I received about Georgetown University and the behaviour of Jesuits which is unacceptable - I forwarded it to my Parish Priest and he turned nasty and now our relationship has turned cold! I think he had a duty to reassure me!!!
Cinette
You don’t have to go to a Jesuit parish if you have 2 others you can go to. That’s the best advice right there. Just stay away from him and let it go.
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iloveangels
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Better idea? Stay away from this Jesuit. Cinette has 2 other parishes she can attend. I would make this particular Jesuit a distant bad memory as soon as possible. People like this sometimes turn out to be dangerous.
We’re drifting away from the topic of the thread too. This isn’t really about Jesuit priests in parishes we don’t have to go to.
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iloveangels
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It’s not one sided. A lot of these women wanted this and did it voluntarily instead of making their own way in the world, for whatever reasons they might have had. They really don’t have anyone to blame but themselves if they got to be 40 and realized that it wasn’t going to turn out the way they had expected. That’s the risk of being an alive adult human being. The same thing happens to a lot of people at some point in their lives no matter what vocation or situation they’re in. I’m not going to get out the little violins and play sad little songs for them.
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JReducation
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Normally, every house has a local superior. Every local superior has a Provincial Superior who is his ordinary. The provincial superiors answer to the General Council. The General Council is presided by the Superior General who is also an ordinary. That’s the normal chain with the big four.
That has to go to the local superior first. Some people go to the diocese, because they don’t know about this chain of command. That’s OK too. The diocese will forward it to the local superior. The bishops are not out of the loop. Dioceses have a Vicar for Religious who is the bridge between the bishop and the superiors. The superior informs the vicar of anything that affects the diocese.
In addition, if the bishop gets a complaint or he has a concern that can be handled by the Vicar for Religious, he passes it on to that office. The Vicar will sit with the superior and they will come up with a plan resolve the issue. The relations between the religious and the bishops are very good, even though there are some laws that set boundaries for both sides. In general, the dioceses and religious deal well together. Diocesan authorities know that the religious superior is not the only authority that has to deal with a problem child. The dioceses have their own problem children.
We already agree on that point.Mind you, I mysef have no current pressing interest in such a complaint!
I think that’s how we got into structures, rules and infrastructures. If you read some of the early posts in this thread, some people’s reactions was that the Franciscan Ministers had no competency, not business and no authority to make any comment.
As I said, aside from the issue of timing, I don’t question their competency, rights and authority, because I understand the role, the rights and the authority of a Franciscan Provincial superior and I also know the he does not act unilaterally on such issues. The authorization comes from the top. The average person would have no reason to know that you never tell a major superior of an male order to “mind his own business”. That’s like telling a bishop to mind his own business. It’s rude. It’s not applicable, because as an ordinary for religious, what happens with religious is his business. He’s not lacking in knowledge about law, ecclesiology and religious life. As long as he does not endorse error,he’son safe ground and his right to speak should be respected, not challenged by someone who has no right to challenge it.
Some people jumped the gun before asking what was the connection between the ministers and the issue at hand. As I think you’re saying, we have to move to the next column and clarify what a male superior can do and why, as well as his role in the Church. He’s a little more than the president of his community.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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iloveangels
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The best thing is to just back off when you see heterodoxy or shenanigans of this sort. You don’t want to find yourself in a place you can’t get out of.Thanks, but that’s not my concern. I’m sure the TC’ers are wonderful people, and contribute wonderfully to our Catholic body, but theirs are not the concern I was addressing, which is below.
Who would be…? (If they are One of the Big Four, it would be the Superior General of their Order, only?)
And if they’re not One of the Big Four, to whom would a lay Catholic address concerns about the teaching of actual heterodoxy?
Mind you, I mysef have no current pressing interest in such a complaint!
And you’re right: It has nothing to do with The Letter. However, I think it’s an important offshoot because it does pertain to the whole issue you have well elaborated on regarding structures and autonomy and lines of authority, which is an aspect of this thread.
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iloveangels
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Jim,
This kind of thing-photos of women obediently teaching in habits and veils-really doesn’t impress me much. I mean I’m not really all about it one way or the other. And you know, I don’t know these people, personally I mean, so I have no take on them. So what’s there to say? But then, I’m not a cradle Catholic either and maybe that factors into it.
Again, drifting away from the main topic, which is the letter sent by the Franciscans to the LCWR, with copies sent to the CDF.
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triumphguy
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My guess: eventually most people will be on side, but a few will leave.
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iloveangels
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Not sure I get your comment, triumphguy. Can you give more detail please?
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JReducation
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On the Solemnity of Pentecost I invested a new class of novices with our habit. My words to them were very simple.
“You must make love of Christ in the voiceless your habit, otherwise what you wear is simply a uniform.”
Why do we keep drifting away from the letter? Is it that people are finally convinced that the letter does not have an agenda and that the title of the thread is misleading?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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iloveangels
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No. I think it’s because Catholics are hopelessly confused at this point. There are at least a dozen very serious crises in the Church and for many people, they’re all intertwined. Bring up one, you get em all. And laypeople are sick and tired of it.On the Solemnity of Pentecost I invested a new class of novices with our habit. My words to them were very simple.
“You must make love of Christ in the voiceless your habit, otherwise what you wear is simply a uniform.”
Why do we keep drifting away from the letter? Is it that people are finally convinced that the letter does not have an agenda and that the title of the thread is misleading?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
So what do they do? They squirm and struggle. They engage in wishful thinking (nice pics of nuns in habits), they engage in blaming (the Jesuit in some parish they don’t have to attend), they do all kinds of things. Sometimes they leave. Most of them stay and make the best of it.
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Tigg
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I do not doubt your intricate explanations and defense of the Franciscans, but find it a little cold and devoid of any sympathetic overtures to the average lay Catholic (in terms of charity and pastoral concern.) The legalities are obviously overwhelming and too much to muddle through when most are just trying to be good, obedient Catholics. The mere mention of some of the shenanigans of the LCWR and the hint that the Franciscans might be allied with them is unquestionably, yet another irritant within the church community. No doubt there are some involved who wish they (the faithful) would just go away and be silent. For those Orthodox Catholics who affirm the concept of the Magisterium as they have been taught and are now alarmed at the insistence of a religious conference which seems to reject this…….well, can you at least acknowledge the legitimacy of that concern without dismissing it completely?You would be surprised. Read TC Forum and some of the other Traditionalists sites on the net. There is a mental image of what a religious should be, do and look like. There is a desire to control and even dictate to them. However, we’re slipping away from the original letter.
Again, you should go to TC Forum or other sites. There are people who want the sisters taken out and flogged for not wearing a habit, a priest for not wearing a cassock, or a religious community for closing a parish that the bishop cannot pick up and that the religious can no longer run.
Having said that, this does not mean that teaching error is allowed either. People certainly need to complain to the proper authorities. This should be addressed by those who have the authority to do so.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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JReducation
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I believe that I mentioned this before, but just in case I did not. This past weekend I was reading through some of Augustine’s letter when he was bishop. I could have changed the names and dates and no one would have known that the letters were written in the 5th century.
The dealt with heresy, inappropriate behavior of the clergy, abuse by religious, heterodoxy, heresy, non compliant laity, poorly educated clergy, poorly catechized laity, child sexual abuse, celibacy and marriage issues.
We’ve been confused at least since the time of Augustine, probably long before too. Like every generation before us, we think that we’re the only ones and we believe that there is a way out. Augustine once wrote that one error is always replaced by another error. He was not discouraging the fight against error. He was warning people not to be discouraged when they found that they had won the battle, but not the war.
St. Francis of Assisi taught to deal with what was before you and let God send someone to deal with the rest. Otherwise, you cannot achieve inner silence. Inner silence is a much higher good than resolving crises. Without inner silence, you may never see the solution.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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iloveangels
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You did mention it. I agree with you on this point. You have to keep the main event the main event. This is, when you get to the bottom of it, about religion.I believe that I mentioned this before, but just in case I did not. This past weekend I was reading through some of Augustine’s letter when he was bishop. I could have changed the names and dates and no one would have known that the letters were written in the 5th century.
The dealt with heresy, inappropriate behavior of the clergy, abuse by religious, heterodoxy, heresy, non compliant laity, poorly educated clergy, poorly catechized laity, child sexual abuse, celibacy and marriage issues.
We’ve been confused at least since the time of Augustine, probably long before too. Like every generation before us, we think that we’re the only ones and we believe that there is a way out. Augustine once wrote that one error is always replaced by another error. He was not discouraging the fight against error. He was warning people not to be discouraged when they found that they had won the battle, but not the war.
St. Francis of Assisi taught to deal with what was before you and let God send someone to deal with the rest. Otherwise, you cannot achieve inner silence. Inner silence is a much higher good than resolving crises. Without inner silence, you may never see the solution.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Many Catholics have an externalized locus of activity and control, and much of the time it is not centered properly. Meaning that it seems focused on appearances and impressions of other people, certain kinds of rigamarole, etc. Unfortunately, it’s part of the territory of being a Catholic. For cradle Catholics, they speak that language almost intuitively. I mean, things like imputing some mysterious magic to people you frankly don’t know, based solely on the black and white dresses they have on and a flood of religious-sounding copy, which may or may not be boilerplate, is a great example.
For converts, you’re expected to get on board seamlessly. It’s one of the things you have to come to realize as a convert–one of the hurdles you must learn to negotiate. I’m not really totally on board with this sort of emotive stuff, but I can be tolerant about people who are. I get it. I just don’t do it because I don’t think that it matters to me like that.
I mean, people are shocked about the LCWR, and I can’t imagine why. Their statements and all the facts about them have been out there, in books and on the internet for literally years. Many people, including me, have had personal, on-the-ground experiences with this sort of thing. And yet, laypeople give that little nod they do, and then go into their mode. It’s just denial, shooting-yourself-in-the-foot denial. They keep thinking that if they will it, hope for it, say enough about it, it won’t be what it was, and what it is.
As a Christian, you have to get some personal responsibility and sense about it, trust God and get a spiritual life that’s not been farmed out to somebody else to do for you. This means deciding where you belong, and taking some moral responsibility for what you’re going to do.
So if somebody says something ridiculously pagan to you, you go to the next parish because you can do better. This is not rocket science.
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JimG
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There was a reference made to the decline of teaching sisters. I simply wanted to point out that we do still have some orders of sisters who teach. And the sisters whom I referenced are very good teachers indeed. The children they teach are fortunate to have them. The habits are simply reminders of who they are as vowed religious sisters. The newsletter I referenced also contains an article about the Apostolic Visitation of their own order.
As for the letter from the Franciscans, I don’t think many people will analyze it to the extent that Brother JR has. Yes, it will be perceived by many, including those in the media as “siding with the LCWR.” Since the matter has been made public, and the letter has been made public, such an impression can scarcely be avoided, no matter how inaccurate.
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