U.S.: Franciscans side with the LCWR

[iloveangels]

There was a reference made to the decline of teaching sisters. I simply wanted to point out that we do still have some orders of sisters who teach. And the sisters whom I referenced are very good teachers indeed. The children they teach are fortunate to have them. The habits are simply reminders of who they are as vowed religious sisters. The newsletter I referenced also contains an article about the Apostolic Visitation of their own order.

I know. I don’t know what to make of the “teaching sister thing” anymore. Is it really that important? Seriously?

As for the letter from the Franciscans, I don’t think many people will analyze it to the extent that Brother JR has. Yes, it will be perceived by many, including those in the media as “siding with the nuns.” Since the matter has been made public, and the letter has been made public, such an impression can scarcely be avoided, no matter how inaccurate.

I think you’re probably right on this one. Lay Catholics don’t really understand the structure of their own church very well because they haven’t been taught, and many of them haven’t taught themselves either.

In the long run, the letter sent by the Franciscans, pro con or whatever, is very minor in the whole scheme of things. Nevertheless, people are going to see it as siding with the LCWR, for good or ill, depending on what their underlying opinion of the whole thing is. It’s just one more little straw on the haypile for some people.

And I mean that for both extremes. Both extremes in the Church operate in exactly the same way, just in opposite directions.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I know. I don’t know what to make of the “teaching sister thing” anymore. Is it really that important? Seriously?

Well, when one is seriously a Catholic parent, seriously wanting to provide your children with a similar group of incredibly witnessing sisters that you were privileged to be taught by, in your own childhood, yes, it is really that important. While I had some fine, fine secular teachers while in public schools, not a single one of them was able to equal the powerful academic and personal and spiritual relationships I had with dedicated, brilliant, professed sisters in Catholic schools. They changed my life, and the lives of uncounted numbers of Catholics on and off this website.

When religious sisters (and brothers, and priests) are in a position to affect a generation of Catholics, their effectiveness as instruments in the formation of youth cannot be calculated and should not be underestimated or triviliazed.

In the long run, the letter sent by the Franciscans, pro con or whatever, is very minor in the whole scheme of things.

But the issues are not minor, and represent issues which have much more macro effect to Catholics. And that’s why people are interested. They’re not interested in obsessing and analyzing about governance and other Inside Baseball technicalities.

 

[iloveangels]

Well, when one is seriously a Catholic parent, seriously wanting to provide your children with a similar group of incredibly witnessing sisters that you were privileged to be taught by, in your own childhood, yes, it is really that important. While I had some fine, fine secular teachers while in public schools, not a single one of them was able to equal the powerful academic and personal and spiritual relationships I had with dedicated, brilliant, professed sisters in Catholic schools. They changed my life, and the lives of uncounted numbers of Catholics on and off this website.

When religious sisters (and brothers, and priests) are in a position to affect a generation of Catholics, their effectiveness as instruments in the formation of youth cannot be calculated and should not be underestimated or triviliazed.

How do you know they’re “incredibly witnessing?” I find this all very odd.

I mean the same people who make up the LCWR were once “incredibly witnessing” sisters by the same criteria. And yes, we are talking not about individuals but about general classes of people based on their profession and their daily dress, so these are fair questions: Did they somehow regress or what? How could that happen if they were, as a class, what you say? Or did they just take off the black garbardine?

But the issues are not minor, and represent issues which have much more macro effect to Catholics. And that’s why people are interested. They’re not interested in obsessing and analyzing about governance and other Inside Baseball technicalities.

I disagree. I think that letter was some kind of a technical communication and at any rate, the CDF has the last word anyway. The letter itself really doesn’t amount to much. In light of all the other information out there, I don’t even think it adds significantly to the fuel for anybody’s fire. Which is what this is really about.

 

[archangel04]

Not at all. No one, not a single religious community has even questioned that the bishop is a secular priest. Bishop Blair is very highly respected and a very humble man. Also, remember that there are regular clerics. One of the “investigators” was a Franciscans bishop. He’s not a secular cleric. He’s regular. Clerical and religious working together has never been a problem for us. We’ve always had clerics in religious life.

Remember, the Church does not exist in a bubble. She is a microcosm of the world. Whatever you find in the world, will be found in the Church. It has always been that way. This is not new. I was just reading about that this morning in some of St. Augustine’s letters. I could have changed the names and no one would have known that it was a fifth century letter. It would have passed for a 21st century letter. It even had clergy sex abuse issues. The only thing missing were sister issues, because there were no sisters in the 5th century, only nuns.

My point, always remember that the Church is very human. Like humanity, it’s on a journey. It will not be perfect until it is perfected in the Kingdom and yet it is perfectly holy. How’s that for a mystery to contemplate?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yeah that makes sense Br. It just hard when not only are you attacked from the secular work, but also from your fellow Catholics. Once again St. Augustine comes in to clear things up for me lol, I no longer believed it was just coincidence that I chose him as my confirmation saint.

 

[Elizabeth502]

How do you know they’re “incredibly witnessing?” I find this all very odd.

Then you find it odd that millions of other Catholics also provide testimony about the incredible witnesses who were teaching sisters, brothers, and priests to them. I believe you’re in the minority if you cannot relate to the concept, but that’s just my opinion based on such similar testimony as mine, from so many other Catholics.

I mean the same people who make up the LCWR were once “incredibly witnessing” sisters by the same criteria.

Indeed. And let me clarify. These sisters in the LCWR, and my own religious teachers, have changed key elements of religious life, such as the centrality of community, such as the centrality of LOTH, such as the centrality of shared liturgy in the life of any religious community, such as the assumed centrality of Church doctrine. Etc. Many of us have mourned these changes, not out of some artificial sentimentality or emotional attachment to the past, what we can observe it has done to the sisters themselves.

As EWTN’s Roundtable discussion brought out, regardless of the Order’s charism (let’s say it’s ministering to the poor, not teaching), professed religious are not just secular social workers with token ties to an Order. Their apostolate is supposed to flow out of their prayer life; that has always been the case, and in no way did Vatican 2 change that, despite the LCWR’s frequent references to V2. A religious apostolate is not independent of a prayer life, nor does it replace a prayer life. Many religious women admit to having much less of a prayer life than many lay Catholics, when if anything, a profession as demanding and self-giving as social work desperately requires an active prayer life.

I don’t know anyone who would not understand the need/desire/practicality of a religious not to live in community 24/7 (depending on a number of legitimate factors), but to go to the other extreme and abandon altogether the priority of community on a very regular basis violates a key element of consecrated life. For some reason, in my very informal observations, that seems to be more true of female than male Orders. Community is an aspect of religious witness.

 

[archangel04]

The thing about the Franciscans (or what I learned from being in formation for 6 yeas with them) is their absolute lack of toleration of ego whether in a Franciscan House or in the Province. They take no guff from anyone in the community (obviously this may take some time to manifest) but they are willing to let people fail (as in - hmm that sounds interesting, what is the worst that can happen? Fail? So not so bad then 'cos we can learn from that…), but they are not willing to be hoodwinked.

They don’t mind being seen as the butt, the fool, the joker - in fact they revel in it - though there is nothing foolish about them.

And they are not wooly headed tree huggers, or soft-hearted caricatures of the* poverello*.

They are a force for good in the Church and see themselves as counter-cultural and prophetic, but wholly in obedience to the Church.

Interesting I did not know that because I would got that image of what you just described lol. I know that they are very intelligent and appreciate there work because I could never do that but sometimes I felt like they showed weakness or “tree hugers” lol.

 

[iloveangels]

Then you find it odd that millions of other Catholics also provide testimony about the incredible witnesses who were teaching sisters, brothers, and priests to them. I believe you’re in the minority if you cannot relate to the concept, but that’s just my opinion based on such similar testimony as mine, from so many other Catholics.

Indeed. And let me clarify. These sisters in the LCWR, and my own religious teachers, have changed key elements of religious life, such as the centrality of community, such as the centrality of LOTH, such as the centrality of shared liturgy in the life of any religious community, such as the assumed centrality of Church doctrine. Etc. Many of us have mourned these changes, not out of some artificial sentimentality or emotional attachment to the past, what we can observe it has done to the sisters themselves.

As EWTN’s Roundtable discussion brought out, regardless of the Order’s charism (let’s say it’s ministering to the poor, not teaching), professed religious are not just secular social workers with token ties to an Order. Their apostolate is supposed to flow out of their prayer life; that has always been the case, and in no way did Vatican 2 change that, despite the LCWR’s frequent references to V2. A religious apostolate is not independent of a prayer life, nor does it replace a prayer life. Many religious women admit to having much less of a prayer life than many lay Catholics, when if anything, a profession as demanding and self-giving as social work desperately requires an active prayer life.

I don’t know anyone who would not understand the need/desire/practicality of a religious not to live in community 24/7 (depending on a number of legitimate factors), but to go to the other extreme and abandon altogether the priority of community on a very regular basis violates a key element of consecrated life. For some reason, in my very informal observations, that seems to be more true of female than male Orders. Community is an aspect of religious witness.

Religious life is fine for those who choose it of their own free will, and are willing to accept the responsibility that goes with that sort of choice. You sort of wrote me a mini-treatise of what religious life is. That’s not really the issue here. I know what it is. I’m saying that what’s happened, happened. And it didn’t come out of nowhere, you understand. The pieces and parts leading up to this episode have been present for decades–at least.

I don’t share your glamorous impression of teaching sisters, even though I went to Catholic school for a year and was taught by them myself. They were individual people, neither the best teachers I ever had nor the worst. I tend to think that they’re an artifact of history in the USA and that a lot of this yearning is nostalgia. And I also think that some of it is some kind of projection on the part of people who want something done external to themselves, in order to make themselves feel better about things that in the church that they feel they have no control over, or that they may feel they’re missing, or that they may feel they’ve lost.

 

[Julia_Mae]

It’s not one sided. A lot of these women wanted this and did it voluntarily instead of making their own way in the world,

I’m sorry, I must be misunderstanding. You didn’t just say that women who wanted to be sisters and nuns did it for some sort of free ride, did you? Like, it had nothing to do with a call from God or a desire to serve Him, it was just, “Well, let’s see, I could go look for a job or be a nun and have an easy life. Yeah, that’s the ticket!”

Is that what you meant, because it’s what I heard you say.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No. I think it’s because Catholics are hopelessly confused at this point. There are at least a dozen very serious crises in the Church and for many people, they’re all intertwined. Bring up one, you get em all. And laypeople are sick and tired of it…

You’re right. A a lay person I am sick and tired of having to watch some Inquisition of everyone, be they clergy, religious or other laypersons in pretty much every thread and have it, no matter what the topic, all be about some sort of massive conspiracy of … what today? "Modernism? Postvatican 2 heresy? Secret plan by the Masons to kill the Church? US government war on religion?

Without the internet, you wouldn’t know about any of this stuff. It would be between the Vatican, the sisters and any of the brothers who wished to comment. But no, now we have to slog through every single personal complaint every poster has about everything they believe they mistakenly believe they have the competency to judge.

Maybe the only thing wrong in the Church is a lotta laypeople who don’t know how to mind their own business. Our business is to follow Jesus, to be transformed into His Image. To be faithful, prayerful, charitable and be concerned with our own holiness.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

You’re right. A a lay person I am sick and tired of having to watch some Inquisition of everyone, be they clergy, religious or other laypersons in pretty much every thread and have it, no matter what the topic, all be about some sort of massive conspiracy of … what today? "Modernism? Postvatican 2 heresy? Secret plan by the Masons to kill the Church? US government war on religion?

Without the internet, you wouldn’t know about any of this stuff. It would be between the Vatican, the sisters and any of the brothers who wished to comment. But no, now we have to slog through every single personal complaint every poster has about everything they believe they mistakenly believe they have the competency to judge.

Maybe the only thing wrong in the Church is a lotta laypeople who don’t know how to mind their own business. Our business is to follow Jesus, to be transformed into His Image. To be faithful, prayerful, charitable and be concerned with our own holiness.

And that would be good, how exactly?

For me, if the Vatican says these ladies need reforming, then they need reforming. End of. It’s not like this junk hasn’t been tried-- for 50 years. Enough.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m sorry, I must be misunderstanding. You didn’t just say that women who wanted to be sisters and nuns did it for some sort of free ride, did you? Like, it had nothing to do with a call from God or a desire to serve Him, it was just, “Well, let’s see, I could go look for a job or be a nun and have an easy life. Yeah, that’s the ticket!”

Is that what you meant, because it’s what I heard you say.

Don’t get me wrong: There were a lot of women who went into it for the right reasons, but there were also many who simply didn’t. there are a lot of stories out there. But then, that’s true of every lifestyle, marriage or arrangement on earth, isn’t it? Nobody sane gets married, conscious of the fact they’re making the mistake of their life, even if they are.

When the reason was immature, it wasn’t usually as blatant as your example, no. Sometimes it was: “I don’t know what I want to do so this looks good (I don’t know who I am),” or “I want to be important and this will do it” or “maybe this will keep me from going to hell,” or “I hate men,” or “daddy will be so proud,” or “somebody loves me and that never happened before.” Not too much different from the reasons women sometimes make bad marriage choices.

You have to remember that sisters going into American teaching and nursing congregations (not nuns, now) were recruited by the thousands to staff things for the immigrant population in the US. Dioceses had these enormous building projects and plans in the US–hospitals and schools and cathedrals and all of it. The idea was to get all the laypeople to send their kids to Catholic schools and build a Catholic culture here. It wasn’t a bad idea, but I’m not sure it worked out very well…and of course, the sisters were the workers in this scheme.

BUT they volunteered for it, for one reason or another. A lot of women didn’t, but they did. They can hardly complain, even though it was, yes, part of a huge program to set up a system in the US for Catholics. As a subtext, you also have to remember that the native population in the US was the majority and they were not any more welcoming to Catholics then Catholics were to them.

 

[iloveangels]

You’re right. A a lay person I am sick and tired of having to watch some Inquisition of everyone, be they clergy, religious or other laypersons in pretty much every thread and have it, no matter what the topic, all be about some sort of massive conspiracy of … what today? "Modernism? Postvatican 2 heresy? Secret plan by the Masons to kill the Church? US government war on religion?

Without the internet, you wouldn’t know about any of this stuff. It would be between the Vatican, the sisters and any of the brothers who wished to comment. But no, now we have to slog through every single personal complaint every poster has about everything they believe they mistakenly believe they have the competency to judge.

Maybe the only thing wrong in the Church is a lotta laypeople who don’t know how to mind their own business. Our business is to follow Jesus, to be transformed into His Image. To be faithful, prayerful, charitable and be concerned with our own holiness.

No Julia, what happened before the Internet was that people saw things and it just took longer to put the pieces together. People had “grapevines.” It was a lot more miserable and suspicious, and dangerous. This is better.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

No Julia, what happened before the Internet was that people saw things and it just took longer to put the pieces together. People had “grapevines.” It was a lot more miserable and suspicious, and dangerous. This is better.

Agree completely.

 

[Julia_Mae]

And that would be good, how exactly?

Because it would stop being an occaision of sin for people, like anyone who thinks their opinion is important. It isn’t. It’s none of our business and never has been. It’s their business.

It would be better because the Liar couldn’t use it and instant communication to spread the divisiveness and anger and self-righteous indignation and judgement.

For me, if the Vatican says these ladies need reforming, then they need reforming.

So what? For you? The Vatican doesn’t care a hoot in a holler about what you think. Never has and never will.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Don’t get me wrong: There were a lot of women who went into it for the right reasons, but there were also many who simply didn’t. there are a lot of stories out there.

There are a lot of stories right here and I relayed those that were told to me by real women from their real experience.

Where’d yours come from?

 

[iloveangels]

There are a lot of stories right here and I relayed those that were told to me by real women from their real experience.

Where’d yours come from?

Same. Most Catholics have all kinds of funny stories. I learned a long time ago that this is part of being Catholic.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Because it would stop being an occaision of sin for people, like anyone who thinks their opinion is important. It isn’t. It’s none of our business and never has been. It’s their business.

It would be better because the Liar couldn’t use it and instant communication to spread the divisiveness and anger and self-righteous indignation and judgement.

So what? For you? The Vatican doesn’t care a hoot in a holler about what you think. Never has and never will.

That’s pure hogwash. They care for my soul. I’m pretty sure they’re in business just for that.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No Julia, what happened before the Internet was that people saw things and it just took longer to put the pieces together. People had “grapevines.” It was a lot more miserable and suspicious, and dangerous. This is better.

No, it isn’t. Because it’s too easy to find others like yourself, or myself, who when we err, agree with us and bolster each other in sin and causing scandal. This forum represents about 1% of the attitudes of the whole Catholic laity. But these groups can lead a person to think they are in some sort of majority, or that all this time and emotion and effort that could be expended serving God and is just spent serving ourselves matters somehow.

This leads you away from Christ. Away from Christ is away from the Church no matter how firmly you hold onto the edge of the pew.

 

[iloveangels]

No, it isn’t. Because it’s too easy to find others like yourself, or myself, who when we err, agree with us and bolster each other in sin and causing scandal. This forum represents about 1% of the attitudes of the whole Catholic laity. But these groups can lead a person to think they are in some sort of majority, or that all this time and emotion and effort that could be expended serving God and is just spent serving ourselves matters somehow.

This leads you away from Christ. Away from Christ is away from the Church no matter how firmly you hold onto the edge of the pew.

Maybe for some. Not for me. Being able to figure some of this out has helped mightily to keep me in the Church. I found some of what I was seeing nearly intolerable before I was able to see a bigger picture… Most of this–LCWR, HHS mandate, abuses, etc etc–doesn’t surprise or shock me anymore.

But then I’m not one of the people in here whining about miniscule details of dress and comportment. I’m neither what you might call an ultratrad or a progressive.

 

[Julia_Mae]

That’s pure hogwash. They care for my soul. I’m pretty sure they’re in business just for that.

I said they don’t care what you think. Your opinion about what they do or do not do is of no interest to them.

It is not.