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Ahimsa
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Well, charismatic Catholics do that.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I would give another explanation.Well, charismatic Catholics do that.
American Catholics are “cool”, gentle but cold, polite but distanced, smiling by little expansive.
Charismatic type Churches and some Protestant are more “latino”, Catholics more with heart than with head, less rational but more intuitive. more expansive less introtroverts.
There is quite a difference between Masses in Germany and in Sicily…
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LDNCatholic
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From the article:
*“Religiously, I didn’t really go to church that much, but I was dragged once in a while. And it wasn’t fun,” *
Reasoning done. They want more fun. These types are often unable to see the value in sacrifice, and cannot appreciate that the entire world does not revolve around them having a pleasurable experience.
*“Religiously, I didn’t really go to church that much, but I was dragged once in a while. And it wasn’t fun,” *
Reasoning done. They want more fun. These types are often unable to see the value in sacrifice, and cannot appreciate that the entire world does not revolve around them having a pleasurable experience.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Mass can be a pleasurable experience. It doesn’t have to be a sacrifice to attend. Attendance isn’t punishment, so that young woman’s remark isn’t out of line.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Yes, if one understands what is going on, and in order to understand, would take some effort, or a good teacher.
Most Pentecostal services, by contrast, are easily understandable.
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ManOnFire
Guest
Why do people still listen to the hip-hop songs with the nasty lyrics? The answer is that there’s more hype and less substance, and hype is more important to people than substance relative to the content in the media’s messages.
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Bohm_Bawerk
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Unfortunately, many Catholics on these forums purport this ridiculous claim that Mass has to be boring, and by virtue of it being boring, it is “genuine” worship. That couldn’t be further from the truth. You can have fun whilst being at Mass. It doesn’t have to be an “either/or” situation as it can be an “and”. Incidentally, I was at the World Youth Day and experienced for the first time what CAF users would derogatorily refer to as “guitar” masses. I can say that I enjoyed myself and it didn’t make the worship any less valuable. I would go so far as to say it made the worship even more valuable, because you definitely got the sense of team spirit - more than what Latin or any other kind of archaic language could aspire to produce.
Continue advocating that you want Mass to be dull, that it has to be a “sacrifice”, and you’ll just drive more folks to Pentecostalism and other Christian denominations who actually believe worship is about rejoicing and not what is implicit masochism.
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Rich_Olszewski
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You’re on the wrong thread.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
I agree. I was raised in the Tridentine Mass era, was an altar boy then, memorized all the Latin responses, etc., but found that I so much more enjoy Novus Ordo Masses, compared to which the Latin Masses seem too formal and distant.
Guitar Masses might be a matter of acquired taste, but they certainly provide that team participation and spirit you mention.
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ManOnFire
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How do you figure? I’m claiming that more charismatic churches which jump on the hype coattails of the media will be more successful at attracting parishioners, especially in this age of portable omnipresent media. Personally, I think the Catholic Church needs to play the deeper traditional music at mass, like Make Me a Channel Of Your Peace and Amazing Grace, but then again, I enjoy the deep.You’re on the wrong thread.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Reading your vague first post, that’s how.
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puzzleannie
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we are surrounded by colonias, settlements of recent and longer term migrants as well as citizens from Mexico and the rest of Latin America. While some parishes honor our bishop’s call for outreach to those outlying areas, many do not and expect these families to travel to the parish for Mass, religious instruction and sacraments. Moreover there is still a prevailing attitude in some parishes of “well the kids learn English in school so there is no need to provide instruction or worship in Spanish.”
Meanwhile the non-denominational, pentecostal, and other little local churches hold socials, Sunday school, bring aid of various kinds and send buses to bring residents to their services and activities and have active outreach of all kinds in Spanish.
Everywhere in the US where there is a significant Hispanic Catholic population that has appeared or grown in the last decade you will hear whines from the pews “let them learn English, this is America, let them drop their cultural customs and popular piety, this is America, let them conform to the only way of being Catholic–which is that found in our own parish”. That is the attitude that is driving many Hispanics away from the Catholic Church. Again in those areas you will find in contrast active proselytizing and recruitment from all other denominations targeting and serving that population, in Spanish and even the other indigenous languages.
Meanwhile the non-denominational, pentecostal, and other little local churches hold socials, Sunday school, bring aid of various kinds and send buses to bring residents to their services and activities and have active outreach of all kinds in Spanish.
Everywhere in the US where there is a significant Hispanic Catholic population that has appeared or grown in the last decade you will hear whines from the pews “let them learn English, this is America, let them drop their cultural customs and popular piety, this is America, let them conform to the only way of being Catholic–which is that found in our own parish”. That is the attitude that is driving many Hispanics away from the Catholic Church. Again in those areas you will find in contrast active proselytizing and recruitment from all other denominations targeting and serving that population, in Spanish and even the other indigenous languages.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
You are spot on. Most Catholic parishes don’t have the outreach the evangelical and pentecostal churches do. Around here, e.g., one sees many passenger vans with the names of the church painted on the side (black churches as well as Hispanic) - obviously to provide rides to church. I’ve yet to see similar Catholic vans.
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ManOnFire
Guest
Or, you could open your mind to consider that maybe it’s a deep parallel.
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ManOnFire
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The Hispanics are ALREADY Catholic. Some are leaving. Why? Because hype is easier than following rules which clash with many people’s real master, the culture.
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Rich_Olszewski
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That’s one opinion of why they leave their parishes. Another is the post by Puzzle Annie.
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Elizabeth502
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It’s all speculation, unless all the departing Hispanics are interviewed and invited to state their reasons.
There could be a prevalent reason, or several reasons. I think it’s absurd to suggest that superior transportation (vans) is “the,” or even a main, reason. In my community there are lots of Hispanic evangelical churches – some of them rag-tag storefronts with metal folding chairs and bare-bones budgets. Zero vans bringing them there. The only vans I have ever seen in my metro area where I have lived for many years are those vans operated by and for Asian evangelical Churches (Korean, Chinese).
Evangelical Protestantism has made inroads into Latino countries themselves. Many immigrants are undoubtedly transporting those affiliations with themselves when they come into our country. That previous affiliation can be a magnet for newly arriving Catholic immigrants in that there is a community connection which is important when immigrants arrive. (Was always important in previous eras of immigration from Europe, for example.)
Particular facets of evangelical religion may indeed appeal to the expressiveness of Latino cultures (plural), but without data, there’s no way to confirm dominant reasons for leaving Catholicism.
There could be a prevalent reason, or several reasons. I think it’s absurd to suggest that superior transportation (vans) is “the,” or even a main, reason. In my community there are lots of Hispanic evangelical churches – some of them rag-tag storefronts with metal folding chairs and bare-bones budgets. Zero vans bringing them there. The only vans I have ever seen in my metro area where I have lived for many years are those vans operated by and for Asian evangelical Churches (Korean, Chinese).
Evangelical Protestantism has made inroads into Latino countries themselves. Many immigrants are undoubtedly transporting those affiliations with themselves when they come into our country. That previous affiliation can be a magnet for newly arriving Catholic immigrants in that there is a community connection which is important when immigrants arrive. (Was always important in previous eras of immigration from Europe, for example.)
Particular facets of evangelical religion may indeed appeal to the expressiveness of Latino cultures (plural), but without data, there’s no way to confirm dominant reasons for leaving Catholicism.
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Ahimsa
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Ask, and ye shall receive:
The vast majority of Latinos (82%) give no indication of ever having changed their religious affiliation. However, almost one-in-five (18%) Latinos say they have either converted from one religion to another or to no religion at all. Given that most Hispanics are Catholic, a large majority of converts (70%) are former Catholics.
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Half of Hispanic evangelicals (51%) are converts, and more than four-fifths of them (43% of Hispanic evangelicals overall) are former Catholics. By contrast, the Pew 2006 Global Survey of Pentecostalism found that 44% of white evangelicals have experienced a religious conversion and that fewer than one-in-ten of them are former Catholics.
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Conversion is more prevalent among native-born Latinos than it is among foreign-born Latinos, for instance. However, there is little difference in the share of converts among the second and third generations (23% vs. 22%, respectively).
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In line with the findings on nativity, 26% of all Latinos whose primary language is English converted, compared with 20% of those who are bilingual and 14% of those whose primary language is Spanish. That
association persists even when controlling for other factors, such as gender, generation and education.
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The desire for a more direct, personal experience with God is one factor that drives Hispanics to convert from one religion to another. More than eight-in-ten Latino converts cite this as a reason for adopting a new faith. That belief is particularly strong among those who have become evangelicals, nine-in-ten (90%) of whom say it was that spiritual search that drove their conversion.
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About one-in-three Latinos (35%) who have changed affiliation to a new religion say the influence of a certain pastor was a factor in their conversion. About one-in-four (26%) attribute their conversion at least in part to a deep personal crisis, and 14% say they converted as a result of a marriage. Such motivations are not mutually exclusive, of course, and the survey does not attempt to rank them by intensity.
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A majority of Latino evangelical converts from Catholicism (61%) say they do not find the typical Catholic Mass to be lively or exciting, and about one-in-three (36%) cite that as a factor in their conversion. Among Latinos who identify as Catholic, on the other hand, 71% say the typical Mass is lively and exciting; 22% disagree.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
Hispanic American countries have always been superficially Catholic anyway.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Ahimsa, all you did was confirm my stated hypothesis that a variety of factors is involved, without an indication of priority. From the article you quoted:
And nothing in there about vans, by the way.
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