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bz5
Guest
I thought the poster was referring to the sacrifice of the mass - the focus of the mass being on the Eucharist, not revolving primarily around the singing and preaching.
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Ahimsa
Guest
True, but we do know that the factor that is most often mentioned, was the search for a “more direct, personal experience with God”, mentioned by 80% of Latino converts, and 90% of Latino converts to evangelicalism.
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tvdxer
Guest
This is happening in their home countries, too.
I visited the Mexican state of Tabasco in March - about 30% to 50% of the state’s population are not Catholic. They’re not atheists, either, far from it - they are usually converts (or second-generation) Protestants. A wide variety of churches are active down there - Baptist, Pentecostal, “centros cristianos” (presumably run by Evangelicals), Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. Likewise for Guatemala, which is about 40-50% Protestant and other Latin American countries as well.
I think one factor that draws people away from the church is its “formality” and perceived staleness of worship. Solemnness is now taken as “staleness”. Catholics with a more “refined” sense of taste like the Tridentine rite, or at least well-done Novus Ordo masses; however, most Catholics (and people in general) do not have refined tastes and instead insist on guitars, drums, and perhaps a fiery preacher. For a musical analogy of this, just see how many people would prefer the pop music of their era to Mozart or Beethoven. (Not to say that my tastes are much refined either!)
Another thing might be the abuses historically perpetrated by the Church in their countries and the current sex scandals. It could be the fellowship; many evangelical and other Protestant churches here and there offer a multitude of activities that Catholic parishes have been slow in keeping up with. Finally, Catholicism is the traditional religion of those regions. Most were baptized in the Catholic church as infants or were brought up to identify as Catholics, so there will naturally be bad as well as good Catholics. I have read that in Guatemala, a Protestant (Evangelical) husband is valued over a Catholic husband, as (presumably lukewarm) Catholic men are often alcoholics and beat their wives. This has nothing to do with Catholicism itself, of course, but Evangelical men, with their “convert zeal”, tend to abstain from these behaviors.
To top it all off, village dynamics specific to certain regions of Central America also explain some of the conversion. Traditionally, each year their is a huge party celebrating the village’s patron saint, and the wealthiest villagers are expected to bankroll most or all of the party. Some of them no longer wanted to be part of it or spend their money on it and left the church for Protestant groups, which of course oppose any veneration of saints (and the syncretism that might be associated with some or most of these celebrations).
Briefly, there are several reasons that Latin American Catholics leave their Church for Protestantism.
I visited the Mexican state of Tabasco in March - about 30% to 50% of the state’s population are not Catholic. They’re not atheists, either, far from it - they are usually converts (or second-generation) Protestants. A wide variety of churches are active down there - Baptist, Pentecostal, “centros cristianos” (presumably run by Evangelicals), Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. Likewise for Guatemala, which is about 40-50% Protestant and other Latin American countries as well.
I think one factor that draws people away from the church is its “formality” and perceived staleness of worship. Solemnness is now taken as “staleness”. Catholics with a more “refined” sense of taste like the Tridentine rite, or at least well-done Novus Ordo masses; however, most Catholics (and people in general) do not have refined tastes and instead insist on guitars, drums, and perhaps a fiery preacher. For a musical analogy of this, just see how many people would prefer the pop music of their era to Mozart or Beethoven. (Not to say that my tastes are much refined either!)
Another thing might be the abuses historically perpetrated by the Church in their countries and the current sex scandals. It could be the fellowship; many evangelical and other Protestant churches here and there offer a multitude of activities that Catholic parishes have been slow in keeping up with. Finally, Catholicism is the traditional religion of those regions. Most were baptized in the Catholic church as infants or were brought up to identify as Catholics, so there will naturally be bad as well as good Catholics. I have read that in Guatemala, a Protestant (Evangelical) husband is valued over a Catholic husband, as (presumably lukewarm) Catholic men are often alcoholics and beat their wives. This has nothing to do with Catholicism itself, of course, but Evangelical men, with their “convert zeal”, tend to abstain from these behaviors.
To top it all off, village dynamics specific to certain regions of Central America also explain some of the conversion. Traditionally, each year their is a huge party celebrating the village’s patron saint, and the wealthiest villagers are expected to bankroll most or all of the party. Some of them no longer wanted to be part of it or spend their money on it and left the church for Protestant groups, which of course oppose any veneration of saints (and the syncretism that might be associated with some or most of these celebrations).
Briefly, there are several reasons that Latin American Catholics leave their Church for Protestantism.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Indeed. A point I also made. An important point.
There is some continuity involved.
My point exactly.
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bz5
Guest
I missed the story on NPR, though I did hear the teaser for it. It made me sad. I will repeat what I heard someone on The Journey Home program say that is so so true. Catholics who know, love, and practice their faith and can’t imagine leaving it simply do not leave because they believe they have found truth elsewhere. Sadly, many are not given good training when they’re young, and so they leave fairly easily when they marry into another faith, or meet an enthusiastic non-Catholic who convinces them Catholicism isn’t Biblical, or they ‘church shop’ on the basis of externals
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I also hope that no one on this thread is subtly or not-so-subtly implying that the liturgy of the Roman Church should adapt to any particular personal or cultural taste. The liturgy has integrity and a rich history of its own. That does not mean that one’s personal background has no value in one’s individual practice of Catholicism. The Church, as universal, is also mutli-cultural – a point clarified and reinforced by Vatican II. There are plentiful opportunities for Catholics of many cultural backgrounds to express themselves in religiously appropriate and authentic ways, in American Catholic parishes. Ditto for the diverse spirituality of Catholicism, which acknowledges cultural differences in the practice of that spirituality.
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ProVobis
Guest
Good points. It seems the same feeling prevails among the Poles who would like to preserve their own culture as well. In fact one Polish parish I know won’t even talk to you on the phone in English. And Poland does not have a shortage of priests, at least for the moment. I’ll bet that angers a lot of Anglophones.
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curlycool89
Guest
Well, when you go and set the bar low enough…
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ProVobis
Guest
Don’t they do their own interpretations? And what’s there to understand when you make your own rules?
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
It angers this Anglo- and Polophone, too! My mother’s neighborhood in Brooklyn might as well be in Warsaw, going by the shop signs and language heard on the street. Yet, St. Stan’s parish has Masses in English and Polish.
And, of course, there’s the Polish National Church, schismatic but not Protestant!
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_Abyssinia
Guest
The Evangelical Churches are very good at evangelizing, they are very good at appearing ‘‘young.’’ There are so many different denominations and I don’t think there are any real demands of you, unlike the Catholic Church. But a lot of what is preached in these Churches is Christianity-lite, it is fun to hear from a while, and then you get bored because there is no history, vague beauty.
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Holly3278
Guest
How sad. Hispanics are traditionally Catholic. Why would they want to leave the one true Church? I hope and pray that this trend ends soon and that all Hispanics who were born Catholic stay Catholic and also that non-Catholic Hispanics would convert to Catholicism.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
Mass is a sacrifice. I don’t believe it has to be dull. I actually enjoy Mass.
My point is Mass can be enjoyable. However it doesn’t have to be, and if it isn’t, it’s not OK to jump ship to the True Bible Life in the Holy Spirit International Pentecostal Holiness Church.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Yeah. the problem is that today man is seeking a God to abide by their will when it should be the other way around. We live in a dangerous time. Where our Faith is being challenge by a blind society who faithless to God. No one who leaving the CC is lead by God. For God does not work against Himself. Jesus pointed this out once. A Kingdom against itself will fall. These people are not seeking God but seeking entertainment for themselves.
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TrueLight
Guest
Ahem! Dull is is in the mind of the believer.
I don’t think anyone advocates a “dull” mass. The EF masses I attend are transcendent. What is dull about the sacrifice of the mass?
I personally believe that a lot of the issues we have with Catholics like Hispanic Catholics leaving the church can be solved with after mass activities, either on a Sunday or during the week. Some cultures are more outwardly warm and family-oriented.
You like guitar music? Then have concerts. You want to pray? Then have prayer groups. You like pot lucks and church picnics? Then have those. You like to watch movies? Then have movie nights at the church or go out to the movies.
Ultimately, invite non-Catholics to come to some of these activities and when they see the warmth and love we have for each other, they will want some of that too.
Relationships are what bond people together as a parish.
The problem is at many parishes, no one seems to care about you one way or the other.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Very true. We had neighbors who got rides to church (some time of evangelical non-denominational church) in such a van. We did not think, until too late, to ask if they would like to go to Mass with us, and offer rides.
It is not too hard to see why people who are not invited, not made to feel welcome, not ministered to in any way, would choose to go someplace where they are invited, welcomed, and helped.
Catholic missionaries in other countries are usually very good at meeting people where they are, helping, and as a consequence, see conversions and vibrant mission churches. However, here in the US, we don’t understand as well (or are unwilling) to do that.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
And so because they are already Catholic, there is no need to help them with transportation? That makes no sense. My mother, also already Catholic, could not drive for a long time after some surgery. Are you saying that she might also have been succumbing the “hype” if a neighbor had arranged transportation to their pentecostal church where she was welcomed and made comfortable, when her local parish did not even send an EMHC to her house?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
That is your duty or someone close by to make sure that she makes to Church with their help. it is nto the duty of the priest.
People need stop comparing the CC wiht protestants congregations. Stop trying to make the CC be like protestants congregations.
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ManOnFire
Guest
Where did I say that they should not have transportation?? Are you implying that they should abandon their Faith for the sake of a free ride to a different church? How about watching mass for shut-ins on EWTN?
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
What is this supposed to mean? And what evidence do you have for it?
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