U.S. Hispanics Choose Churches Outside Catholicism

[Mrs_Sally]

Ahimsa, all you did was confirm my stated hypothesis that a variety of factors is involved, without an indication of priority. From the article you quoted:

And nothing in there about vans, by the way.

Of course there would be a variety of factors. I doubt converts to Catholicism would all state the same or only one reason for conversion. However, I would think that, as Catholics, we would all be concerned about the conversion away from Catholicism by people who have traditionally been Catholic.

Vans are simply one sign of the hospitality and welcoming attitude of the churches they are moving to. I doubt anyone converts because of vans, but if a person without transportation or many other resources is offered a ride to a weekly Christian service and other aid, they could easily find themselves identifying more with that Christian church than with the Catholic church which has not offered any welcome or aid.

Yes, it is a sign of poor catechesis that someone would leave the Catholic Church for another Christian church. However, they probably do have poor catechesis and those of us who are not doing anything to remedy that are part of the problem.

We may not be able to do everything, but we can certaintaly pick one issue and work to solve it. Vans are probably way down the list. Increasing the number of priests, deacons, etc who can speak Spanish may be the most important. For us as laity, the steps we can take fall in between. Tutoring an ESL class, being part of the church outreach group, teaching CCD, etc.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Ahem! Dull is is in the mind of the believer.

I don’t think anyone advocates a “dull” mass. The EF masses I attend are transcendent. What is dull about the sacrifice of the mass?

I personally believe that a lot of the issues we have with Catholics like Hispanic Catholics leaving the church can be solved with after mass activities, either on a Sunday or during the week. Some cultures are more outwardly warm and family-oriented.

You like guitar music? Then have concerts. You want to pray? Then have prayer groups. You like pot lucks and church picnics? Then have those. You like to watch movies? Then have movie nights at the church or go out to the movies.

Ultimately, invite non-Catholics to come to some of these activities and when they see the warmth and love we have for each other, they will want some of that too.

**Relationships are what bond people together as a parish.

The problem is at many parishes, no one seems to care about you one way or the other**.

Excellent points. Mass is the source and summit of our faith, but we should build relationships, a welcoming attitude, and FUN, into the rest of parish life. Not to mention the catechesis and assistance that so many need (hispanic or not).

 

[TrueLight]

Of course there would be a variety of factors. I doubt converts to Catholicism would all state the same or only one reason for conversion. However, I would think that, as Catholics, we would all be concerned about the conversion away from Catholicism by people who have traditionally been Catholic.

Vans are simply one sign of the hospitality and welcoming attitude of the churches they are moving to. I doubt anyone converts because of vans, but if a person without transportation or many other resources is offered a ride to a weekly Christian service and other aid, they could easily find themselves identifying more with that Christian church than with the Catholic church which has not offered any welcome or aid.

Yes, it is a sign of poor catechesis that someone would leave the Catholic Church for another Christian church. However, they probably do have poor catechesis and those of us who are not doing anything to remedy that are part of the problem.

We may not be able to do everything, but we can certaintaly pick one issue and work to solve it. Vans are probably way down the list. Increasing the number of priests, deacons, etc who can speak Spanish may be the most important. For us as laity, the steps we can take fall in between. Tutoring an ESL class, being part of the church outreach group, teaching CCD, etc.

There seems to be a resistance to some charitable behavior just because Protestants do it.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Where did I say that they should not have transportation?? Are you implying that they should abandon their Faith for the sake of a free ride to a different church? How about watching mass for shut-ins on EWTN?

How about we figure out a way to offer love and companionship to our fellow Catholics? I am in no way implying they should abandon their faith for a ride. However, when your church ignores you when you are in need, and another church doesn’t, it becomes very difficult to reject. The Gospel is full of stories of people converting because of human touch and a fulfillment of their human needs.

The mass for shut-ins should never be considered an acceptable substitute for us aiding our fellow parishioners and neighbors in need. Especially if all they need is a ride.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

That is your duty or someone close by to make sure that she makes to Church with their help. it is nto the duty of the priest.

People need stop comparing the CC wiht protestants congregations. Stop trying to make the CC be like protestants congregations.

I did not say it was the duty of the priest. I specifically said it was the duty of the laity in each parish to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors get to church.

The CC should be **better **than any protestant congregation! With the fullness of the faith and the strength of God’s grace in the sacraments, we should be able to both offer true worship to God *and *help our neighbors in need.

 

[TrueLight]

I did not say it was the duty of the priest. I specifically said it was the duty of the laity in each parish to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors get to church.

The CC should be **better **than any protestant congregation! With the fullness of the faith and the strength of God’s grace in the sacraments, we should be able to both offer true worship to God *and *help our neighbors in need.

I believe it was Tertullian in his Apology, who said of Christians, "See how they love one another!”

Justin Martyr said,

We who used to value the acquisition of wealth and possessions more than anything else now bring what we have into a common fund and share it with anyone who needs it. We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.”

Can we say we show such love to our brothers and sisters?

Doing one’s part in helping someone elderly get to mass can be as easy as volunteering to pick someone up one Sunday and helping them back home.

I believe it is cold to say they should just watch the mass on EWTN. Human beings are social creatures and need to be with one another.

Folks, this is a battlefield for souls.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I did not say it was the duty of the priest. I specifically said it was the duty of the laity in each parish to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors get to church.

The CC should be **better **than any protestant congregation! With the fullness of the faith and the strength of God’s grace in the sacraments, we should be able to both offer true worship to God *and *help our neighbors in need.

We should help our neighbours in need. Still nothing justify them leaving the Church except that they were not tought the faifh properly.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It’s all speculation, unless all the departing Hispanics are interviewed and invited to state their reasons.

There could be a prevalent reason, or several reasons. I think it’s absurd to suggest that superior transportation (vans) is “the,” or even a main, reason. In my community there are lots of Hispanic evangelical churches – some of them rag-tag storefronts with metal folding chairs and bare-bones budgets. Zero vans bringing them there. The only vans I have ever seen in my metro area where I have lived for many years are those vans operated by and for Asian evangelical Churches (Korean, Chinese).

Evangelical Protestantism has made inroads into Latino countries themselves. Many immigrants are undoubtedly transporting those affiliations with themselves when they come into our country. That previous affiliation can be a magnet for newly arriving Catholic immigrants in that there is a community connection which is important when immigrants arrive. (Was always important in previous eras of immigration from Europe, for example.)

Particular facets of evangelical religion may indeed appeal to the expressiveness of Latino cultures (plural), but without data, there’s no way to confirm dominant reasons for leaving Catholicism.

Well, they give them enough money minus as well provide them wiht transportation. Most of rthese self stand gathering are very interested on teh money. so they will wnat the people to be there. that is how they survive

 

[TrueLight]

Well, they give them enough money minus as well provide them wiht transportation. Most of rthese self stand gathering are very interested on teh money. so they will wnat the people to be there. that is how they survive

I grew up in a Baptist church of about 300 people. The Pastor had a full time job because our offerings could not sustain him and his family of three.

They managed to save up and get a church van which people volunteered to drive.

The church van could only hold so much.

My mom had a car but she used to let me stay in youth meeting which was after church. There were also other meetings going on at the time. She would leave to go home but leave me with bus money.

It was rare that I ever had to take the bus. Either one of the older youth would give me a ride or an adult that was leaving at the same time. Often I would be walking to the bus and someone would honk and say, “get in”.

That is caring and has nothing to do with tithing.

Instead of being skeptical, why not give credit where credit is due.

Even in war, you learn from your enemies.

And of course I’m not saying Protestants are our enemies.

But we also need to be strategic.

 

[PaulinVA]

I did not say it was the duty of the priest. I specifically said it was the duty of the laity in each parish to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors get to church.

In a hierarchical Church such as ours, all things are the responsibility of the Pastor. The fact that he does not care to put something in place to ensure people have rides to get to Mass is on him. I’m sure that many quietly make sure individuals in need gat the transportation assistance needed,

But this gets to one of the main points in this thread. We are not protestant, where a vestry or council or elders run the church and create an atmosphere that they want. We are Catholic, where the Bishop owns the buildings and the Pastor is his appointed representative and totally responsible for the operation of the parish. We don’t just vote on what we want to do, in terms of outreach or programs or whatever.

The CC should be **better **than any protestant congregation! With the fullness of the faith and the strength of God’s grace in the sacraments, we should be able to both offer true worship to God *and *help our neighbors in need.

This is useful if the people involved want true worship and not something that makes them feel good or caters to them.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In a hierarchical Church such as ours, all things are the responsibility of the Pastor. The fact that he does not care to put something in place to ensure people have rides to get to Mass is on him. I’m sure that many quietly make sure individuals in need gat the transportation assistance needed,

But this gets to one of the main points in this thread. We are not protestant, where a vestry or council or elders run the church and create an atmosphere that they want. We are Catholic, where the Bishop owns the buildings and the Pastor is his appointed representative and totally responsible for the operation of the parish. We don’t just vote on what we want to do, in terms of outreach or programs or whatever.

This is useful if the people involved want true worship and not something that makes them feel good or caters to them.

Many parish programs that run outreach to fallen away Catholics and to non-Catholics were started by laity, such as the Legion of Mary or Holy Name societies. Many others, while started by clergy originally are run by laity, such as St Vincet societies or the Knights of Columbus.

I am sure that if a group of parishioners wanted to start some kind of outreach, they could get their pastor’s approval. Or for something simple like offering rides to neighbors or even making sure they had babysitting during RCIA, they could simply start doing it and organize it into an official apostolate later.

I think it is a bit of a cop out to say only the Bishop can start a program. Yes he has to approve them, but he doesn’t have to think of everything. Christ calls us all to help our neighbors in need and to evangelize to all nations.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think it is a bit of a cop out to say only the Bishop can start a program. Yes he has to approve them, but he doesn’t have to think of everything. Christ calls us all to help our neighbors in need and to evangelize to all nations.

I’m sorry I’ve brought my person bias into this discussion. It’s the topic for another thread - the Church is hierarchical when it is convenient to the clergy, but we are supposed to pitch in and volunteer when that is convenient for them.

I have a different question about this topic - why does one group within the Church have to cater to another group so their members do not leave? Aren’t we all members of the same body?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’m sorry I’ve brought my person bias into this discussion. It’s the topic for another thread - the Church is hierarchical when it is convenient to the clergy, but we are supposed to pitch in and volunteer when that is convenient for them.

I have a different question about this topic - why does one group within the Church have to cater to another group so their members do not leave? Aren’t we all members of the same body?

My answer to your different question - We are all to help each other out. The first Christan church as described in the Acts of the Apostles teaches us that. However, it is also true “that to whom much is given, much will be expected.” So the people within the parish who have more - knowledge, time, money, energy, etc. should put what they have at the service of those who have less, those who need more. In the examples we’ve been talking about, those with less are the immigrant, the elderly, the ill, the poor. Those are the people who are usually marginalized in our society.

In Christian society, and especially as Catholics, we should not be like secular society. We should see Christ in those people in need. We should look on them as Christ looked on the women of Jerusalem and weep over them. (And then we should give them all rides to church in our vans! )

 

[Elizabeth502]

I did not say it was the duty of the priest. I specifically said it was the duty of the laity in each parish to make sure their family, friends, and neighbors get to church.

No. This is simply guilt-tripping and shifting responsibility. It is the duty of every adult Catholic to arrange his or her life so that Mass at a minimum of every Sunday is possible – a valid Mass somewhere within transportation or walking distance. If someone is newly arrived, came without funds, can barely afford food/housing (and has literally no money for public transportation or gas), then that person is excused from what is not possible for him or her. I agree that it would be a good idea if the pastor announces, orally, through the bulletin, and elsewhere in the church, an opportunity for parishioners with cars to sign up as volunteer drivers, especially for such economically impacted families. Ditto for such an announcement in the diocese, especially on behalf of families far away from a church within walking distance or bus lines. With online capability now, this is doable. By the way, I have seen such announcements on behalf of those needing rides in several of my local parishes.

However, noting the exception above, it is not the responsibility of any lay person or persons to cajole, make convenient, seduce, chauffeur, or entertain any reluctant Mass-goer to attend Mass. It’s absurd. Anyone who is not seduced by the opportunity for union with the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – enough to structure his or her life to make that a priority once/week – is someone who perhaps needs more than a ride to Mass to ignite his or her faith in The Real Presence, the Sacraments, and the proclaimed Word of God within that Eucharistic celebration. And I say that because of the witness I see in the frail with nerve disease, the elderly in walkers, those with limited and fixed incomes, who make it not only to Sunday Mass, but very often to weekday Masses. Yesterday there were 45 people at an ordinary, non-feast-day, non-Holy-Day Mass in one of my local parishes. Some of those people make great sacrifices in the cause of such devotion and most definitely do not get rides to church.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Oh I agree that we are all responsible to get ourselves to Mass. However, I do not agree that we have no responsibility to our fellowmen to assist them when they cannot assist themselves.

We have 3 daily masses at my parish. They are none of them packed to the rafters, but there are more than 45 at each one, each day. We have 6 Sunday Masses and the most popular is just about SRO. I live in an affluent suburban area.

Puzzleannie and others have described situations where it is not easy to get transportation to Mass. If we simply say that those Catholics are excused from their obligations and do nothing to help them meet those obligations, why should we be surprised when those people are then cajoled, seduced, other won away by other Christians who will make the effort?

That is all I am saying. We cannot stand back and neglect the least in our midst and then claim that they are entirely at fault in their lack of faith. It is up to us to “cajole, make convenient, seduce” our fellowman and bring him to the fullness of the faith in Christ. We are called to evangelize. By Christ and by our Pope.

No. This is simply guilt-tripping and shifting responsibility. It is the duty of every adult Catholic to arrange his or her life so that Mass at a minimum of every Sunday is possible – a valid Mass somewhere within transportation or walking distance. If someone is newly arrived, came without funds, can barely afford food/housing (and has literally no money for public transportation or gas), then that person is excused from what is not possible for him or her. I agree that it would be a good idea if the pastor announces, orally, through the bulletin, and elsewhere in the church, an opportunity for parishioners with cars to sign up as volunteer drivers, especially for such economically impacted families. Ditto for such an announcement in the diocese, especially on behalf of families far away from a church within walking distance or bus lines. With online capability now, this is doable. By the way, I have seen such announcements on behalf of those needing rides in several of my local parishes.

However, noting the exception above, it is not the responsibility of any lay person or persons to cajole, make convenient, seduce, chauffeur, or entertain any reluctant Mass-goer to attend Mass. It’s absurd. Anyone who is not seduced by the opportunity for union with the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – enough to structure his or her life to make that a priority once/week – is someone who perhaps needs more than a ride to Mass to ignite his or her faith in The Real Presence, the Sacraments, and the proclaimed Word of God within that Eucharistic celebration. And I say that because of the witness I see in the frail with nerve disease, the elderly in walkers, those with limited and fixed incomes, who make it not only to Sunday Mass, but very often to weekday Masses. Yesterday there were 45 people at an ordinary, non-feast-day, non-Holy-Day Mass in one of my local parishes. Some of those people make great sacrifices in the cause of such devotion and most definitely do not get rides to church.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It is up to us to “cajole, make convenient, seduce” our fellowman and bring him to the fullness of the faith in Christ.

That is not the definition of evangelization. To evangelize is to call to conversion, not to provide chauffeuring to those who do have the means to transport themselves, in some fashion, to Mass. When someone answers the call to conversion, from the Holy Spirit, through human beings, the sign of such conversion is a passion for the faith (or renewal of it).

And I didn’t say anything about abandoning people indefinitely, who do not have rides to Church. I already mentioned the desirability of volunteering for such needs, especially on a temporary basis for those people not yet settled/established, and on a more permanent basis for those who are so disabled/frail that they cannot get onto a bus, etc. Do not twist my message.

At the Mass I mentioned, where there are typically 45 people, there’s an additional daily Mass as well, with a fairly full Church. Unlike yours, however, ours is not a wealthy suburban parish. Many of these people are on fixed incomes, do not drive, have physical restrictions, etc. They go to great lengths to attend even non-obligatory Masses.

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, if you read the polls, the problem is that most Catholics do not believe and/or do not follow what the Church teaches.

The Hispanic people that are the subject of this thread just have the honesty to actually leave and go somewhere else.

So, the real problem for the Catholic Church in the 21st century is evangelization (call to conversion) of all baptized Catholics, anglo, Hispanic, whatever.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Well, if you read the polls, the problem is that most Catholics do not believe and/or do not follow what the Church teaches.

The Hispanic people that are the subject of this thread just have the honesty to actually leave and go somewhere else.

So, the real problem for the Catholic Church in the 21st century is evangelization (call to conversion) of all baptized Catholics, anglo, Hispanic, whatever.

Excellent point…

 

[TrueLight]

However, noting the exception above, it is not the responsibility of any lay person or persons to cajole, make convenient, seduce, chauffeur, or entertain any reluctant Mass-goer to attend Mass. It’s absurd. Anyone who is not seduced by the opportunity for union with the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – enough to structure his or her life to make that a priority once/week – is someone who perhaps needs more than a ride to Mass to ignite his or her faith in The Real Presence, the Sacraments, and the proclaimed Word of God within that Eucharistic celebration.

Yes, they probably do need more than a ride. They need prayer AND a ride, words of encouragement, seducing, cajoling, whatever. Sometimes all a person needs is to know someone cares. To see that agape love.

Christianity is not just about your relationship with God. It is also about praying for souls and helping brothers and sisters that are weaker than us in the faith. And I’m speaking of both physical and mental/emotional weakness.

Does anyone ever have family member you just want to give up on? If you have any love for that person, you talk to them, make sacrifices for them, pray for them before deciding to give up.

We are brothers and sisters in Christ.

The two greatest commandments according to Christ: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

That calls for a life of sacrifice.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes, they probably do need more than a ride. They need prayer AND a ride, words of encouragement, seducing, cajoling, whatever. Sometimes all a person needs is to know someone cares. To see that agape love.

Christianity is not just about your relationship with God.

I never said, or implied that it was. For heaven’s sake. I think some of you posters are just getting overly dramatic about this. The issue is about Hispanics leaving the Catholic Church, and I can tell you, given that I am well acquainted with several such neighborhoods, including my own, that they are walking to, and taking buses to – not getting chauffered rides to – evangelical Protestant churches. The families better off than that are being chauffeured by other family members to those protestant evangelical Churches, because the entire family is going there in a family van, not a van from any church.

I didn’t say anything about lack of agape.
Didn’t say anything about family words of encouragement, for heaven’s sake. No one here knows a single thing about any other poster’s private lives and how they do or do not support their own families.

The insinuations here are just unreal. And prove my point: This is about guilt-tripping. It’s supposedly now the fault of anonymous CAF’ers, with whom no one here is acquainted and wouldn’t know their level of charity and sacrifice toward strangers, that U. S. Hispanics are leaving the Catholic Church.

Melodrama, much?

Interviewer: Jorge and Rosita, Why are you leaving the Catholic Church for your fave evangelical Protestant Church?
Jorge and Rosita: Insufficient vans.


There is in fact a lot to correct in the Catholic Church, some of it well known by some very aware priests and bishops, but I will tell you that vans and rides are way down there on the list. The reasons for Catholic tepidity are many and in some cases complex. It cannot be assumed that the fault of low Mass attendance, or a failure to correct that, lies with the efforts, intentions, and prayer lives of those who do attend Mass.