U.S. Public Continues to Favor Legal Abortion, Oppose Overturning Roe v. Wade

[SadPotato]

Everett Koop, the former Surgeon General said that in all his long medical career he had never know of a case where abortion was necessary to save the mother’s life.

I can’t speak to his experiences, but such cases do occur, and reacting to them with pious complacency is disgusting and irresponsible.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I can’t speak to his experiences, but such cases do occur, and reacting to them with pious complacency is disgusting and irresponsible.

Instead of accusing me of “pious complacency” and suggesting I am “disgusting and irresponsible” (which I believe is against Forum Rules) why not give us some FACTS that refute Koop’s observation?

I’ll help you out – an ectopic pregnancy (in which the child develops outside the womb) can indeed be life threatening – and the Church recognizes that and considers removal of the fallopian tube or similar organs to save the mother’s life is an example of double effect, and permissible.

Now tell us of OTHER cases where the child CAN be born, but must be aborted to save the mother’s life.

 

[SadPotato]

Instead of accusing me of “pious complacency” and suggesting I am “disgusting and irresponsible” (which I believe is against Forum Rules) why not give us some FACTS that refute Koop’s observation?

I’ll help you out – an ectopic pregnancy (in which the child develops outside the womb) can indeed be life threatening – and the Church recognizes that and considers removal of the fallopian tube or similar organs to save the mother’s life is an example of double effect, and permissible.

Now tell us of OTHER cases where the child CAN be born, but must be aborted to save the mother’s life.

I didn’t accuse you specifically. You’re putting words in my mouth.

You need to do more research if you think that ectopic pregancy is the only pregnancy complication that warrants/could warrant an abortion. There’s also severe pre-eclampsia, HELLP syndrome, gestational diabetes, increased risk of embolisms, etc.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I didn’t accuse you specifically. You’re putting words in my mouth.

You need to do more research if you think that ectopic pregancy is the only pregnancy complication that warrants an abortion. There’s also severe pre-eclampsia, HELLP syndrome, gestational diabetes, increased risk of embolisms, etc.

It sure seemed like it to me!!

Thank you for the examples – now could you give us statistics? How often do these conditions occur? What percentage of abortions are due to these conditions? And are all of them fatal to the mother?

Would you accept a law limiting abortions to ONLY those conditions?

 

[SadPotato]

Thank you for the examples – now could you give us statistics? How often do these conditions occur? What percentage of abortions are due to these conditions? And are all of them fatal to the mother?

The information is available if you care to look, but even one preventable maternal death is too much.

Would you accept a law limiting abortions to ONLY those conditions?

No, because I also look at abortion as a matter of personal autonomy. I’m just pointing out how ridiculous certain restrictions are even by pro-life Catholic standards.

It sure seemed like it to me!!

Criticizing approaches and attitudes is not the same as attacking people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The information is available if you care to look, but even one preventable maternal death is too much.

You’re the one making the argument – do you expect me to look for data to support your argument, when you don’t have any?

No, because I also look at abortion as a matter of personal autonomy. I’m just pointing out how ridiculous certain restrictions are even by pro-life Catholic standards.

Let me point out there have been more that 60 MILLION abortions in the US since Roe vs Wade. How does that square with placing something ahead of 60 million lives (remember, Hitler only killed 12 million in the holocaust.)

Criticizing approaches and attitudes is not the same as attacking people.

When you accuse me of having those approaches and attitudes, you are attacking me.

Notice that it this debate I have not accused you of anything at all.

 

[SadPotato]

I’m not looking to teach an epidemiology class if I’m not gonna get paid for it. Google is your friend.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not looking to teach an epidemiology class if I’m not gonna get paid for it. Google is your friend.

When you use arguments based on events, you are intellectually required to present evidence.

 

[SadPotato]

When you use arguments based on events, you are intellectually required to present evidence.

Newp. My life’s hard enough without having to do your Googling for you.

 

[Peeps]

It’s up to us, and I think I have provided a powerful tool – “Who rejects the right to life rejects ALL human rights.” Now can we make people understand that.

I’m not sure I understand it.

I think that many people do not recognize that the embryo or the fetus or even the 20-week baby is really, truly, a living human being with a soul.

Many people come to a realization of this truth when they are confronted with a dramatic life situation; e.g., the Planned Parenthood executive who filled in during an abortion and saw the little one ripped up alive.

Dr. Nathanson (sorry if I’m not spelling his name correctly) was a DOCTOR who came to a sudden realization of the reality of human life in the womb.

And regular people who don’t become speakers or have films made about themselves experience the same thing.

So IMO, as these people continue to share their “aha!” moments in their circle, and more people join in with them, more and more people in the U.S. will come to the same realization, and when that happens, they will demand that their politicians enact legislation that protects the most vulnerable human beings.

And then…there is the awful situation when people DO recognize that humanity of an embryo or fetus, but they themselves are faced with a crisis pregnancy, one that they did not expect, or perhaps the news that their unborn child has some kind of serious physical condition, or perhaps they will lose a job or some other means of support (husband?) if they give birth…

…and these people cannot find the strength to continue the pregnancy.

This happens, probably more often than we think. Years ago, I heard a statistic that 1/6 of all abortions in the U.S. are performed on Evangelical Protestant Christians, a group that at the time, was solidly pro-life.

It’s easy to talk about life and righteousness and the teachings of the Church when life is good, there is a support system (husband, parents, friends), the money is easy, and your health and the unborn child’s health is good. It’s very, very hard sometimes to follow your own beliefs, and many people find themselves too weak and scared to live by their convictions.

I think we need to train ourselves to be strong should we be faced with the unthinkable, and I think that we should always, ALWAYS be compassionate towards those who have fallen, because we could find ourselves on that same path making that same awful decision.

And if we Christians, who have all the love and resources that Jesus gives us freely, fall into sin, how can we expect those who don’t know Christ to be righteous?

 

[SadPotato]

Exhibit A on why I abhor democracy.

You’d be begging for it the moment your preferred system turned on you.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Considering that most Catholics in the US (and I suspect the Western World as a whole) do not believe in the Real Presence, is it really a surprise that other fundamental teachings such as the sanctity of innocent life are not followed? I would chalk it up to ignorance of Church teaching and failure in proper catechism.

 

[SadPotato]

Considering that most Catholics in the US (and I suspect the Western World as a whole) do not believe in the Real Presence, is it really a surprise that other fundamental teachings such as the sanctity of innocent life are not followed? I would chalk it up to ignorance of Church teaching and failure in proper catechism.

Not necessarily. I’m pro-choice, but it didn’t result from insufficient education on the Church’s position. I was actually involved in the pro-life movement for a while: my views just happened to shift as I developed a more mature understanding of society and of other people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not sure I understand it.

I think that many people do not recognize that the embryo or the fetus or even the 20-week baby is really, truly, a living human being with a soul.

Just as the Nazis did not recognize the Jews as human, but called them “untermenschen” (sub humans.)

But I have raised a standard that is scientifically defensible – the unborn child can be scientifically proven to be a living human being:
1, Living – the unborn child is clearly living. If it were not, we would not be having this debate.
2. Human. It has human DNA,.
3. Being – it has its OWN DNA.

Recently someone said “mankind” to the Prime Minister of Canada, and he said, “You mean ‘personkind’.” Whenever someone says “fetus” we say, “You mean a living human being.”

Then we point out ALL living human beings have right to life – and if that isn’t true then there is no such thing as human rights.

In years to come, we may swing public opinion.

 

[SadPotato]

Then we point out ALL living human beings have right to life

Not at the expense of another human being’s bodily autonomy. You can’t force a woman to use her body as an incubator any more than I can force you to donate your organs to save those I deem worthy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not at the expense of another human being’s bodily autonomy.

Let’s suppose you’re in a store and robber comes in. You recognize him, and he knows it. Would he be justified in killing you to preserve his bodily autonomy from prison?

Some years ago, there was a girl who gave birth in the ladies room at a school prom. She threw the baby in the trash. It was found, and she was charged and, as I recall, convicted.

But suppose when the baby’s head crowed, she had plunged a nail file in the soft spot and expelled the little corpse. Would that make her innocent in your opinion?

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Not necessarily. I’m pro-choice, but it didn’t result from insufficient education on the Church’s position. I was actually involved in the pro-life movement for a while: my views just happened to shift as I developed a more mature understanding of society and of other people.

I come from the exact opposite position. I was a pretty liberal lapsed Protestant/Agnostic. When I decided to start exploring converting to Catholicism the Church’s teachings on abortion, contraception etc. were at first a stumbling block for me but I accepted that they were pretty fundamental and to convert I had to accept the Church on it’s terms, not mine. Some of the factors that led to me to disregard my previous position in favor of abortion were reading up on Peter Singer, who teaches that infanticide should be legal, and shocked me into realizing what a slippery slope legal abortion had opened up. The second was when I decided to one day look up which Saint’s Feast Day falls on my birthday, which happens to be 28 December. The answer was the Holy Innocents. I could not help thinking God was trying to tell me something.

 

[SadPotato]

Let’s suppose you’re in a store and robber comes in. You recognize him, and he knows it. Would he be justified in killing you to preserve his bodily autonomy from prison?

This is such a bad faith example that I’m not even sure how to engage it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is such a bad faith example that I’m not even sure how to engage it.

Now you’re accusing me of bad faith.

I have related a REAL event, and asked how that squares with your beliefs. You are aware that more than one child has been killed like that – scissors plunged through the soft spot as the head crowns.

 

[Pattylt]

Years ago, I heard a statistic that 1/6 of all abortions in the U.S. are performed on Evangelical Protestant Christians, a group that at the time, was solidly pro-life.

It’s even worse…24% of abortions are performed on Catholics. I believe the general population of Catholics is around 22%.

One could argue that these are Catholics in name only but the fact remains that when the clinics have women fill out questionnaires for those seeking an abortion, they check mark the box for Catholic. I’ve never met a Catholic that doesn’t know the Church’s position on abortion.

You are right about one thing…when a woman is faced with a pregnancy that she neither planned nor wanted, her morality and convictions seem to fly out the window. For some reason, at that point in time, abortion is the right decision for her…it’s everyone else that shouldn’t have one.

How do we reach these women before they’ve made the decision. My opinion is that protesting outside abortion clinics makes the protesters feel good but for the women entering, it’s too late…they’ve made the decision at that point. I wish I had answers.