Ukraine (cont.)

[Tenofovir]

Because Islam is a recognized religion in Russia, but Catholicism is not, so my point still stands. Please do attempt to read up on the way Catholics are treated in Russia.

I actually have distant family connections there.

P.S. And this is not a thread about Russia vs. the West, i.e., I have never claimed that the West is innocent, but I’m getting tired of having to make excuses for Russia because of mistakes that the West has made. The cold hard facts of this case are that Russia is to blame for what is happening in Crimea, no one else.

Mistakes? No. I fear it is a double standard. Sorry the West has no right to judge Russia. And the opinions of the majority of Crimeans cannot be brushed off because of Russian soldiers. The West contributed to this. Sorry to say.

 

[josie_L]

I have said innumerable times on this forum that I consider the Iraq War to have been wrongful but that it is not in any way the same as the Ukranian crisis. Iraq was fought on a shady pretext (invisible weapons of mass destruction) but not to annex the territory and make it part of the US or Britain. It is totally different from Ukraine.

Exactly, Vouthon, but again, facts don’t matter, i.e., people are more concerned with shoving the mistakes of the West down our throats so that they can absolve Russia of what is clearly an annexation of Crimea.

 

[Tenofovir]

Exactly, Vouthon, but again, facts don’t matter, i.e., people are more concerned with shoving the mistakes of the West down our throats so that they can absolve Russia of what is clearly an annexation of Crimea.

josie with all respects, the people there want to be with Russia. The majority wants that. It’s not a simple annexation. The way Russia considers the Roman Catholic Church is not a directly related affair. No-one raised this until now.

The West did not learn from its mistakes. They did not give Kosovo back to Serbia or did not pay reparations to the ethnically cleansed Serbs. I also don’t know if any of families of the dead civilians killed by NATO were compensated or not. If it’s OK to invade Iraq because of a false pretext and OK to bomb people because of Kosovo, it’s OK for Putin to respond to a vote from a local populace. Come on.

(John Paul II condemned the Iraqi invasion. However I fear and was disappointed that not many Catholics in North America spoke up against it.)

 

[Vouthon]

The way Russia considers the Roman Catholic Church is not a directly related affair. No-one raised this until now.

Ukrainian Catholics comprise roughly 10% cent of Crimea’s two million inhabitants. Even before the referendum result came out priests have went missing.

Read this from yesterday:

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/17/catholics-in-crimea-fear-oppression-under-possible-russian-rule/

Catholics in Crimea fear oppression under possible Russian rule

Many Catholics living in the disputed Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea are worried about their future after the region declared independence Monday following an overwhelming vote to secede.

Father Mykhailo Milchakovskyi, a pastor in the town of Kerch, Ukraine, in eastern Crimea, told the Catholic News Service that members of his church are frightened by the recent Russian military occupation and fear their communities may be forced out under possible Russian rule.

“No one knows what will happen. Many people are trying to sell their homes and move to other parts of Ukraine," Milchakovskyi said. "Our church has no legal status in the Russian Federation, so it’s uncertain which laws will be applied if Crimea is annexed. We fear our churches will be confiscated and our clergy arrested,” the priest added.

Milchakovskyi said the Ukrainian Catholic Church’s leader, Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kiev-Halych, had pledged “prayers and support” to any Catholics who felt threatened.

“Many have already stopped coming to church, after being branded nationalists and fascists by local provocateurs,” Milchakovskyi said.

Church leaders are concerned that Russians would inflict a new oppression on Ukrainian Catholics, who make up about 10 percent of Crimea’s 2 million people.

Under Soviet rule, from 1946 to 1989, the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church was outlawed. While some continued to practice their faith in secret, others attended an Orthodox church or gave up going to religious services. The government confiscated all church property, handing over some buildings to the Orthodox Church and putting other buildings to secular use.

Two days before the referendum, Milchakovskyi said many Catholics would likely not vote. “They say that it’s not legal. They will not take part in it and that it is just illegal,” he said.

Milchakovskyi said he had been allowed, as a military chaplain, to visit Catholics serving with the Ukrainian naval infantry in Kerch, after their base in the eastern port was blockaded by Russian-backed forces.

He reported that Russian troops were “controlling who and what gets through,” and said young recruits now lacked food and medicine.

“The Orthodox have always insisted they’re dominant here and done everything to make life unpleasant for us. If they’re now given a free hand, we don’t know whether they’ll behave like Christians or follow the same unfriendly policy,” Milchakovskyi said.

Now those Catholics are under Russian rule just like the Tartar Muslims.

I do have cause to be worried about my Church in Crimea.

 

[Tenofovir]

Ukrainian Catholics comprise roughly 10% cent of Crimea’s two million inhabitants, I believe. Already two priests have gone missing, claiming that pro-Russians kidnapped them.

Read this from yesterday:

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/17/catholics-in-crimea-fear-oppression-under-possible-russian-rule/

Now those Catholics are under Russian rule just like the Tartar Muslims.

I do have cause to be worried about my Church in Crimea.

Ok, fine, that’s fair. Then you should worry about the plight of those people there. I hope you opposed UK’s attempts to arm Syrian rebels who were far worse than Russians could ever be toward Syrian Christians. Or the plight of Iraqi Christians now that non secular forces have greater say in Iraq. Please say you were.

 

[josie_L]

I actually have distant family connections there.

And??

Mistakes? No. I fear it is a double standard. Sorry the West has no right to judge Russia. And the opinions of the majority of Crimeans cannot be brushed off because of Russian soldiers. The West contributed to this. Sorry to say.

Then who has a right to judge Russia?? No one, according to your standards, thus leaving the world open to the rogues of this world to wreak havoc, and that is exactly what Putin is doing with it’s annexation of Crimea (and it is an annexation). And although there may be a double standard, I as a concerned citizen of the world, have every right to denounce Putin’s actions which have exacerbated the situation 100 fold. Moreover, the Ukrainians were NOT pawns of the West, i.e., the majority wanted Yanukovych ousted, so give the Ukrainians some credit, will you??

 

[josie_L]

josie with all respects, the people there want to be with Russia. The majority wants that. It’s not a simple annexation. The way Russia considers the Roman Catholic Church is not a directly related affair. No-one raised this until now.

It’s an annexation, I have every right to believe it is, as per the circumstances surrounding said “referendum”.

P.S. I will deal with the rest of your post later.

 

[Vouthon]

Ok, fine, that’s fair. Then you should worry about the plight of those people there. I hope you opposed UK’s attempts to arm Syrian rebels who were far worse than Russians could ever be toward Syrian Christians. Or the plight of Iraqi Christians now that non secular forces have greater say in Iraq. Please say you were.

This is unconnected…however…

I opposed Western intervention in Syria last year and was relieved when the British Parliament voted against it. If you check my posts from last year, you will find me saying this much.

Syria is a messy affair. Assad is a brutal dictator and the protests were initially peaceful civilian ones. However after the regime’s brutal clamp down and the ensuing chaos, a vacuum was created in which foreign and domestic jihadists have gained power in the opposition camp and yes these Sunni groups have committed atrocities against Christians. With Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda getting involved on opposing sides, it has become an internal sectarian battleground within Islam - something it wasn’t at all at the beginning - with innocent Christians caught in the middle and suffering, just like all the innocent Muslim Syrians who are also suffering.

Iraq is increasingly becoming dominated by the Islamic Republic of Iran which executes Christian pastors. Again unconnected.

 

[Tenofovir]

And??

Then who has a right to judge Russia?? No one, according to your standards, thus leaving the world open to the rogues of this world to wreak havoc, and that is exactly what Putin is doing with it’s annexation of Crimea (and it is an annexation). And although there may be a double standard, I as a concerned citizen of the world, have every right to denounce Putin’s actions which have exacerbated the situation 100 fold. Moreover, the Ukrainians were NOT pawns of the West, i.e., the majority wanted Yanukovych ousted, so give the Ukrainians some credit, will you??

I’m not saying the rest of Ukraine must succumb to Russia. I’m just saying that the principle of self determination should hold.

Who can judge? Obviously one should try to correct ones’ own faults first you know. It’s kind of a tenet of our faith. And subsequently we should admit to our mistakes before we point fingers. Since the politicians won’t do that, well… that will just enable others to do what we’ve been doing.

And of course you should be free to judge. I still maintain that the popular opinion of those people can’t be brushed off.

 

[Tenofovir]

It’s an annexation, I have every right to believe it is, as per the circumstances surrounding said “referendum”.

P.S. I will deal with the rest of your post later.

You can believe what you will. But try to be consistent and fair. And don’t excuse your side so much.

Please also don’t take anything personally.

 

[Vouthon]

And of course you should be free to judge. I still maintain that the popular opinion of those people can’t be brushed off.

No one in the West is saying that Crimeans opinions should be brushed aside. We are saying that the Russian occupation of a sovereign country and the suppression of views within Crimea other than those of pro-Putin ethnic Russians (Catholics and Tartar Muslims) is not the way to do it. It is illegal and morally wrong.

 

[pepipop]

Exactly, Vouthon, but again, facts don’t matter, i.e., people are more concerned with shoving the mistakes of the West down our throats so that they can absolve Russia of what is clearly an annexation of Crimea.

But Russia would not have ‘annexed’ Crimea if the West hadn’t poked their noses in and then dropped the ball, in the first place. Yanukovich, wanted to go with the EU in September, he was offered the earth, sun and stars. The EU dilly, dallied and offered only 700 million, whilst Russia had offered 15 billion (although Yanukovich was dead against going with Russia, initially). Possibly thought, best for the country to get 15 billion and get this sorted.

He changed sides, the EU then realised their faux pas. The rioting was unfortunately inevitable, as most of the people thought the EU to be their saviour and a way to work within the EU member countries (which Yanukovich also found out a later date was a no go, that Ukraine would not be members of the EU).

Then there was a coup d’etat with the US ‘assisting’ in the appointing of a ‘new’ parliament after Yanukovich was ousted. All evidenced by telephone conversation taps.

IF none of the above had occurred and the EU had met their monetary promises, etc… Russia would never have gone through with the Crimean process - it would never have occurred.

 

[Tenofovir]

Syria is a messy affair. Assad is a brutal dictator and the protests were initially peaceful civilian ones. However after the regime’s brutal clamp down and the ensuing chaos, a vacuum was created in which foreign and domestic jihadists have gained power in the opposition camp and yes these Sunni groups have committed atrocities against Christians. With Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda getting involved on opposing sides, it has become an internal sectarian battleground within Islam - something it wasn’t at all at the beginning - with innocent Christians caught in the middle and suffering, just like all the innocent Muslim Syrians who are also suffering.

Iraq is increasingly becoming dominated by the Islamic Republic of Iran which executes Christian pastors. Again unconnected.

Western interference has led to a group of extremists even Al Qaeda considers too extreme, the ISIS. But thank you for being consistent on Syria.

 

[Vouthon]

You can believe what you will. But try to be consistent and fair. And don’t excuse your side so much.

She isn’t excusing “her side” and is being “consistent and fair”. I have agreed with practically everything she has said.

 

[Tenofovir]

She isn’t excusing “her side” and is being “consistent and fair”. I have agreed with practically she has said.

We tend to excuse our own governments and people far more than those of distant cultures.

 

[Vouthon]

We tend to excuse our own governments and people far more than those of distant cultures.

An assumption, far too general and again we should judge each case on its merits. In this case Russia has acted against international law.

 

[Tenofovir]

An assumption, far too general and again we should judge each case on its merits. In this case Russia has acted against international law.

Violations of international law are very common.

 

[Vouthon]

As do the other major powers, nothing new.

None of the other major Western powers have permanently annexed territory in the last century or have prominent political parties in their parliaments that want to resurrect a long dead empire out of former Soviet territories. Very new for a 21st century, supposedly modern nation.

 

[Tenofovir]

None of the other major Western powers have permanently annexed territory in the last century or have prominent political parties in their parliaments that want to resurrect a long dead empire out of former Soviet territories. Very new for a 21st century, supposedly modern nation.

Different sins, but sins anyhow.

Thank you. I’m going to bow out, it’s 12:30 am here. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Vouthon]

Different sins, but sins anyhow.

Thank you. I’m going to bow out, it’s 12:30 am here. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Take care