Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

Putin never struck me as an impressive leader but his imperial tendencies are on full display now. His stance in certain conflicts, most recently Syria, speaks to a mentality in which a country belongs to its leader, whose strength is measured in the extent to which he can keep his populace (and that of surrounding countries) in submission. Czarist rule seems to have survived communism after all.

What we sometimes fail to see is that there really was no such thing as Tsarism or Communism in Russia except as an expedient. The “ism” didn’t drive events. Marx was a fool for imagining that, but Lenin saw it clearly. What there was, and is, is totalitarianism. It is not a means to an end. It is the end itself. It doesn’t matter what name one puts to it, or what social pretense one uses to justify it. It’s the will to power.

And it always has a supporting oligarchy of the privileged. It could be the Tsar’s nobility, the Nazi heierarchy, Mussolini’s top industrialists, Putin’s oligarchs or Stalin’s Politburo. But it always does. The relationship is an up/down thing. Sometimes the oligarchy has enough power to dictate to the leader. Sometimes the leader has the oligarchy under his thumb entirely. And always, as now, disinformation is fed to the masses and the outsiders to obscure the true nature of things. Russia, as a state, is an economic and social mess. Putin serves up conquests as substitutes for better living conditions, and fools his people with that. But it isn’t just that. Power seeks power for its own sake.

There is no difference in essence between Stalin’s Soviet Union and Putin’s Russia, and we should not expect the latter to act in any way different from the former.

 

[Tomdstone]

According to the following article, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is guilty of making false accusations against Russia and the Holy Russian Orthodox Church, especially in regard to the situation in Crimea.
theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/04/ukrainian-greek-catholic-church-continue-to-deliver-false-criticisms-on-moscow-patriarchate-and-russian-authorities/
The article appears on the Orthodoxy Cognate Page Society Media Network which is an initiative to bring the world closer to true values of Orthodoxy and aims to promote Orthodox Christian unity and faith through dialogue and action.

 

[seekerz]

What we sometimes fail to see is that there really was no such thing as Tsarism or Communism in Russia except as an expedient. The “ism” didn’t drive events. Marx was a fool for imagining that, but Lenin saw it clearly. What there was, and is, is totalitarianism. It is not a means to an end. It is the end itself. It doesn’t matter what name one puts to it, or what social pretense one uses to justify it. It’s the will to power.

And it always has a supporting oligarchy of the privileged. It could be the Tsar’s nobility, the Nazi heierarchy, Mussolini’s top industrialists, Putin’s oligarchs or Stalin’s Politburo. But it always does. The relationship is an up/down thing. Sometimes the oligarchy has enough power to dictate to the leader. Sometimes the leader has the oligarchy under his thumb entirely. And always, as now, disinformation is fed to the masses and the outsiders to obscure the true nature of things. Russia, as a state, is an economic and social mess. Putin serves up conquests as substitutes for better living conditions, and fools his people with that. But it isn’t just that. Power seeks power for its own sake.

There is no difference in essence between Stalin’s Soviet Union and Putin’s Russia, and we should not expect the latter to act in any way different from the former.

I think you’re right: the end is power (more like domination, actually), the means is whatever political system is expedient to achieve it. Any pretense at democracy, such as elections or the recent Crimean ‘referendum’, is simply a means of the regime justifying itself to the world.

 

[Ridgerunner]

According to the following article, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is guilty of making false accusations against Russia and the Holy Russian Orthodox Church, especially in regard to the situation in Crimea.
theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/04/ukrainian-greek-catholic-church-continue-to-deliver-false-criticisms-on-moscow-patriarchate-and-russian-authorities/
The article appears on the Orthodoxy Cognate Page Society Media Network which is an initiative to bring the world closer to true values of Orthodoxy and aims to promote Orthodox Christian unity and faith through dialogue and action.

One always needs to be careful about one’s understanding of the Russian Patriarchate of the Eastern Orthodox Church. That is especially true given that some of its leaders were sufficiently complicit with the KGB to deserve the term “agents”. To some degree, Orthodoxy is always “territorial”, and has always had a problem with too close identification with the rulers. It is unacceptable to any given patriarchate to have others within its territorial jurisdiction. In the case of the Russian church, it does not even accept the presence of Eastern Orthodox, Greek Patriarchate (Constantinople) within territories it claims, and that includes Ukraine. (Parenthetically, it also includes all of the Americas in its exclusive territorial claims.)

Catholic churches of any sort are even less acceptable, and most unacceptable of all are the Eastern Catholic Churches, including the UGCC. This is not some secret; the Russian church is quite open about that.

The cited article is quite an ugly one, but says more about those making the complaint than it does about the Catholic Church in Ukraine. From the article:

“Supported by Vatican, the Ukrainian Catholic Rite always had an agenda of representing themselves as the national Church of Ukraine which they have been trying to achieve by all means, but have miserably failed.”

This is truly amazing, almost to the point of being amusing inasmuch as the Catholic Church does NOT claim territories at all, holding that it, as well as the Russian or Greek or Coptic or other Orthodox churches, can be wherever on earth they want to be. The quote represents the predilections of the Russian church, not that of the Catholic Church. Perhaps they don’t see that, or perhaps it is the “language” of Russian Orthodoxy, meant to have meaning to Russians more than anyone else.

But this is typical Russian “disinformation”, at which they are very persistent. The Russian secret police, whether under the name Cheka, NKVD, MVD, KGB or FSB, have attempted to discredit and slander every Pope and many bishops. Russia spent a great deal of time, effort and money in its attempts to discredit the Catholic Church worldwide. This is quite well known and voluminously documented. Putin’s Russia is no different from the Stalin, Kruschev, Brezhnev or Andropov Russia regimes in that respect.

Westerners ought to study the history of those attempts, and will not be able to understand Russian disinformation unless they do. But for certain, no one should accept it at face value or promulgate it until he/she attains a greater understanding of the undeniable history of such things.

 

[Vouthon]

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russias-preparations-for-war-on-sweden-lead-to-security-service-concerns-9246749.html

**The Independent - Russia’s ‘preparations for war on Sweden’ lead to security service concerns **

Swedish security services have expressed serious concerns that Russia is heightening its spying efforts in Scandinavia and “preparing for war”, according to local media reports.

Speaking at a press conference on Monday, the chief counter-intelligence analyst for the Säkerhetspolisen (Säpo) agency said that the escalating crisis in eastern Europe was the greatest security threat identified in a recent briefing.

Wilhelm Unge said communications from Russian intelligence agencies had increased, more attempts were being made to recruit spies and that Moscow had purchased a significant number of maps.

The spy chief said the developments were in keeping with recent trends, most notably the military flight exercises undertaken by Russia last year against simulated Swedish targets.

“You don’t carry out these kinds of things unless you can actually conceive carrying out an attack in the future,” Mr Unge said.

He described Russian war preparations as “worrying” for Sweden, and linked the increased activity to the general heightening of tensions across Europe.

According to the Wall Street Journal, he told Swedish public radio: “Without going into details we see increased Russian intelligence activity at the moment because of what is happening in Ukraine and in Crimea.”

When Russia carried out its practice military exercises in the Baltic in March last year, flying war planes towards the Swedish border, the Scandinavian country’s military came under fire for not mobilising any jets of its own in response.

**Sweden becomes the latest non-Nato-member in Europe to express concerns over President Vladimir Putin’s apparent Russian expansionism.

Last month one of Putin’s closest former advisors expressed fears that Finland was among a number of states in which Russia has plans to regain territory**.

And the news came as Ukrainian authorities moved to oust pro-Russian activists from government buildings in its eastern city of Kharkiv.

Ukraine’s interim president, Oleksandr Turchynov, has accused Moscow of trying to repeat “the Crimea scenario”, whereby the peninsula was annexed by the Russian federation.

 

[pepipop]

*But this is typical Russian “disinformation”, at which they are very persistent. The Russian secret police, whether under the name Cheka, NKVD, MVD, KGB or FSB, have attempted to discredit and slander every Pope and many bishops. Russia spent a great deal of time, effort and money in its attempts to discredit the Catholic Church worldwide. This is quite well known and voluminously documented. Putin’s Russia is no different from the Stalin, Kruschev, Brezhnev or Andropov Russia regimes in that respect.

Westerners ought to study the history of those attempts, and will not be able to understand Russian disinformation unless they do. But for certain, no one should accept it at face value or promulgate it until he/she attains a greater understanding of the undeniable history of such things.*

I recognise this is veering away from the thread, but in relation to the above.

Disinformation is what intelligence agencies seem ‘to do’, as evidenced by CIA which has recently been implicated in the latest ‘Cuba Twitter’ CIA setup. I don’t think ‘Westerners’ need to look much further than their own respective agencies for disinformation, SIS, MI5, BND, etc.

newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/04/the-dangerous-absurdity-of-the-secret-cuban-twitter.html

The CIA has also been accused of framing Bulgaria and the KGB for the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul in 1981. This was also supported by Michael Ledeen on TV and in US papers, in the 80’s, an American foreign policy expert. On 25 September 1991, former CIA analyst Melvin A. Goodman (now Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy) revealed that his colleagues, following hierarchical orders, had falsified their analysis in order to support the accusation. He declared to the US Senate intelligence committee that “the CIA hadn’t any proof” concerning this alleged “Bulgarian connection”.[11]

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/8466560/CIA-tried-to-frame-Bulgaria-for-John-Paul-II-assassination-attempt.html

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kiev-says-russia-provokes-trouble-in-eastern-ukraine-just-as-in-crimea/2014/04/07/8242ee71-465b-4113-91be-93f8bfa67ff1_story.html

In Kharkiv, local reporters said a group of armed men stormed the opera house Monday thinking it was the mayor’s office. Fighting in the city continued into the evening, as armed agitators tried to break into the local security agency headquarters, but police said they were eventually turned back.

(See also
themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html)

Oh, but they must be locals who just didn’t happen to know where their city’s administration building was, right?

 

[Miserissima]

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kiev-says-russia-provokes-trouble-in-eastern-ukraine-just-as-in-crimea/2014/04/07/8242ee71-465b-4113-91be-93f8bfa67ff1_story.html

(See also
themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html)

Oh, but they must be locals who just didn’t happen to know where their city’s administration building was, right?

Well, it ain’t over 'till…

 

[Ridgerunner]

*But this is typical Russian “disinformation”, at which they are very persistent. The Russian secret police, whether under the name Cheka, NKVD, MVD, KGB or FSB, have attempted to discredit and slander every Pope and many bishops. Russia spent a great deal of time, effort and money in its attempts to discredit the Catholic Church worldwide. This is quite well known and voluminously documented. Putin’s Russia is no different from the Stalin, Kruschev, Brezhnev or Andropov Russia regimes in that respect.

Westerners ought to study the history of those attempts, and will not be able to understand Russian disinformation unless they do. But for certain, no one should accept it at face value or promulgate it until he/she attains a greater understanding of the undeniable history of such things.*

I recognise this is veering away from the thread, but in relation to the above.

Disinformation is what intelligence agencies seem ‘to do’, as evidenced by CIA which has recently been implicated in the latest ‘Cuba Twitter’ CIA setup. I don’t think ‘Westerners’ need to look much further than their own respective agencies for disinformation, SIS, MI5, BND, etc.

newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/04/the-dangerous-absurdity-of-the-secret-cuban-twitter.html

The CIA has also been accused of framing Bulgaria and the KGB for the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul in 1981. This was also supported by Michael Ledeen on TV and in US papers, in the 80’s, an American foreign policy expert. On 25 September 1991, former CIA analyst Melvin A. Goodman (now Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy) revealed that his colleagues, following hierarchical orders, had falsified their analysis in order to support the accusation. He declared to the US Senate intelligence committee that “the CIA hadn’t any proof” concerning this alleged “Bulgarian connection”.[11]

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/8466560/CIA-tried-to-frame-Bulgaria-for-John-Paul-II-assassination-attempt.html

There are always going to be accusations against the CIA; some of which is probably true and much of which is just tinfoil hat nonsense. And, of course, some have ulterior political motives. Even if some CIA people asserted complicity of Bulgarian secret police in the attempted assassination of Pope JPII (which Agca himself asserted) mistakenly, nothing came of it. The U.S. did not conquer parts of Bulgaria, as Russia has done in Ukraine.

But again, and lest we forget what reality is, Russia took Crimea from Ukraine and incorporated it into Russia. It took part of Georgia. It took part of Moldova. It’s troops are lined up on the eastern Ukrainian border. Its agents are in eastern Ukraine, and it’s doing the same thing there as it did in Crimea.

Sometimes it’s really not so hard to know what reality is, as hard as some may work to avoid facing it or admitting to it or excusing it.

 

[pepipop]

There are always going to be accusations against the CIA; some of which is probably true and much of which is just tinfoil hat nonsense. And, of course, some have ulterior political motives. Even if some CIA people asserted complicity of Bulgarian secret police in the attempted assassination of Pope JPII (which Agca himself asserted) mistakenly, nothing came of it. The U.S. did not conquer parts of Bulgaria, as Russia has done in Ukraine.

But again, and lest we forget what reality is, Russia took Crimea from Ukraine and incorporated it into Russia. It took part of Georgia. It took part of Moldova. It’s troops are lined up on the eastern Ukrainian border. Its agents are in eastern Ukraine, and it’s doing the same thing there as it did in Crimea.

Sometimes it’s really not so hard to know what reality is, as hard as some may work to avoid facing it or admitting to it or excusing it.

Russia did not ‘take’ Crimea, Crimea as an autonomous republic asked after declaring its’ full independence under an illegal government, to go wth Russia (so we’ll agree to disagree).

Disinformation - are there agents in Eastern Ukraine? The Russians say they do not have any and I’d doubt it too, as it would not gain anything for Putin if they were caught. Unfortunately, following the overthrowing of the last government the pro-Russian Ukrainians are riled up enough. The majority of men in the crowds are middle aged and not young.

Russia will not ‘take’ Eastern/Southern Ukraine pro-Russian areas, Putin has no intention of ‘invading’ Ukraine.

en.itar-tass.com/world/726997

*KIEV, April 08. /ITAR-TASS/. Chairman of the Luhansk Region Council Valery Golenko has called for disarming all illegal paramilitary formations, amnesty for participants in protests in eastern regions, and holding a referendum on the status of the Russian language and federalisation.
These are crucial conditions for breaking political deadlock in Ukraine, Golenko said in a statement received by ITAR-TASS on Tuesday.

“In the first place, all illegal paramilitary formations should be immediately disarmed,” he noted. "We should begin with Right Sector and other radical groups that formed on “Maidan.”
The Luhansk Region Council has repeatedly voiced this demand in the recent months, but Kiev did not heed the calls to protect residents of Ukraine’s southeast and the whole country. “Our people decided that they should protect themselves on their own,” Golenko said.
The second condition is dropping persecution of activists and participants in protests in the east of the country. “If the participants in the confrontation in Kiev and western Ukraine have been amnestied and nearly made heroes, eastern Ukraine’s residents should not be punished either, and whose who have been detained for political motives or charged must be amnestied,” he went on.*

 

[Ridgerunner]

Russia did not ‘take’ Crimea, Crimea as an autonomous republic asked after declaring its’ full independence under an illegal government, to go wth Russia (so we’ll agree to disagree).

Disinformation - are there agents in Eastern Ukraine? The Russians say they do not have any and I’d doubt it too, as it would not gain anything for Putin if they were caught. Unfortunately, following the overthrowing of the last government the pro-Russian Ukrainians are riled up enough. The majority of men in the crowds are middle aged and not young.

Russia will not ‘take’ Eastern/Southern Ukraine pro-Russian areas, Putin has no intention of ‘invading’ Ukraine.

en.itar-tass.com/world/726997

*KIEV, April 08. /ITAR-TASS/. Chairman of the Luhansk Region Council Valery Golenko has called for disarming all illegal paramilitary formations, amnesty for participants in protests in eastern regions, and holding a referendum on the status of the Russian language and federalisation.
These are crucial conditions for breaking political deadlock in Ukraine, Golenko said in a statement received by ITAR-TASS on Tuesday.

“In the first place, all illegal paramilitary formations should be immediately disarmed,” he noted. "We should begin with Right Sector and other radical groups that formed on “Maidan.”
The Luhansk Region Council has repeatedly voiced this demand in the recent months, but Kiev did not heed the calls to protect residents of Ukraine’s southeast and the whole country. “Our people decided that they should protect themselves on their own,” Golenko said.
The second condition is dropping persecution of activists and participants in protests in the east of the country. “If the participants in the confrontation in Kiev and western Ukraine have been amnestied and nearly made heroes, eastern Ukraine’s residents should not be punished either, and whose who have been detained for political motives or charged must be amnestied,” he went on.*

One would have to want to believe the Russian explanation for its seizure of Crimea (and ethnically cleansing it) in order to believe it.

Western news is full of reports of Russian agents in Eastern Ukraine, and Russians are taking over civic buildings there. I prefer to believe western reports over those of Russia and its agents.

And I would certainly not believe anything from TASS. One is reminded of the old Russian saying: “There is no Pravda (truth) in Izvestia (news) and no Izvestia in Pravda.” Nothing has changed in Russia.

And Russia has taken Crimea and annexed it to Russia. No matter what rationalizations Putin and his supporters tender, that fact remains, and it tells the world everything there really is to know about the truth of the matter.

As to the Russian threat, it is believed by every European state bordering Russia, even Sweden, and some that do not border Russia. And yet, we’re to believe Russia that just took over part of three countries so far. Amazing.

But I have no doubt the Russian disinformation machine will continue to run. It just doesn’t convince those who are within the ambit of its ambitions.

I will admit, however, that those in the west who want to believe Russia’s line probably don’t have people in the U.S. administration who likewise believe it, but who will act as if they do.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

One would have to want to believe the Russian explanation for its seizure of Crimea (and ethnically cleansing it) in order to believe it.

Western news is full of reports of Russian agents in Eastern Ukraine, and Russians are taking over civic buildings there. I prefer to believe western reports over those of Russia and its agents.

And I would certainly not believe anything from TASS. One is reminded of the old Russian saying: “There is no Pravda (truth) in Izvestia (news) and no Izvestia in Pravda.” Nothing has changed in Russia.

And Russia has taken Crimea and annexed it to Russia. No matter what rationalizations Putin and his supporters tender, that fact remains, and it tells the world everything there really is to know about the truth of the matter.

As to the Russian threat, it is believed by every European state bordering Russia, even Sweden, and some that do not border Russia. And yet, we’re to believe Russia that just took over part of three countries so far. Amazing.

But I have no doubt the Russian disinformation machine will continue to run. It just doesn’t convince those who are within the ambit of its ambitions.

I will admit, however, that those in the west who want to believe Russia’s line probably don’t have people in the U.S. administration who likewise believe it, but who will act as if they do.

Well put!

 

[pepipop]

One would have to want to believe the Russian explanation for its seizure of Crimea (and ethnically cleansing it) in order to believe it.

Western news is full of reports of Russian agents in Eastern Ukraine, and Russians are taking over civic buildings there. I prefer to believe western reports over those of Russia and its agents.

And I would certainly not believe anything from TASS. One is reminded of the old Russian saying: “There is no Pravda (truth) in Izvestia (news) and no Izvestia in Pravda.” Nothing has changed in Russia.

And Russia has taken Crimea and annexed it to Russia. No matter what rationalizations Putin and his supporters tender, that fact remains, and it tells the world everything there really is to know about the truth of the matter.

As to the Russian threat, it is believed by every European state bordering Russia, even Sweden, and some that do not border Russia. And yet, we’re to believe Russia that just took over part of three countries so far. Amazing.

But I have no doubt the Russian disinformation machine will continue to run. It just doesn’t convince those who are within the ambit of its ambitions.

I will admit, however, that those in the west who want to believe Russia’s line probably don’t have people in the U.S. administration who likewise believe it, but who will act as if they do.

It’s not a question of ‘believing’ the story from Tass, it is a fact and not supposition with zero proof. Valery Golenko exists, is alive and well and living in Ukraine and has said these words. Even with all the media disinformation worldwide, never have I seen any media source make up words /speeches by a ‘living’ human being and print them, the person could deny everything the next day.

There is no proof there are Russian operatives in Ukraine. Putin has no need to send in operatives (not that I’m saying he would have anyway), as the overthrown government in addition to the right sector’s antics in small villages/Ukrainian national TV station, etc…,has successfully caused unrest throughout Ukraine’s regions.

A new law has now been introduced against Eastern protesters by the ‘interim’ government. No such penalties were implemented, in addition to minimal force, against Kiev protesters - so that should help to calm the situation! (Not that I would ever wish any penalties or maximum force used against either set of protesters.)

A bit of an OTT reaction to the current situation by the ‘interim’ government. BTRs or armed vehicles enter Lugansk as confirmed by Ukrainian press.
unian.net/politics/905810-v-lugansk-vveli-btryi-iz-za-zahvachennoy-sbu-smi.html

euronews.com/2014/04/08/ukraine-passes-security-legislation-amid-tension-in-east/
*
Parliament in Kyiv has moved to assert its authority by amending the law, as tensions rise in Ukraine’s east.

It has passed legislation envisaging long jail terms for acts against Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

Interim President Oleksandr Turchynov says ‘sepaatists’ taking up arms and seizing buildings will be dealt with as “terrorists and criminals”.

The man behind the new law is Serhiy Sobolev, a Member of Parliament for the ruling Batkivshchyna party.

He says there will be stiffer punishment for treason, attacking state institutions, obstructing public authorities activity and attempts to overthrow the government.

The basic penalty will be 5 to 8 years imprisonment with 15 years or a life sentence for treason, Sobolev explained.

But communist leader Petro Symonenko argued in the chamber that demonstrators’ demands should be listened to.

And he accused nationalists of setting a precedent by seizing public buildings in their protests against the former Yanukovych regime .*

 

[Seamus_L]

The hypocrisy of the de-facto government in Ukraine is stunning. The rioters of the Euromaidan movement in Kiev have been called everything from heroes and patriots, to the “Heavenly Hundred” in the case of those who were killed, yet when Russian speakers employ far less violent tactics, they’re labeled as terrorists.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The hypocrisy of the de-facto government in Ukraine is stunning. The rioters of the Euromaidan movement in Kiev have been called everything from heroes and patriots, to the “Heavenly Hundred” in the case of those who were killed, yet when Russian speakers employ far less violent tactics, they’re labeled as terrorists.

Interesting that the “rioters” (protesters, actually) in Kiev were the ones who were killed, not those against whom they protested.

When, as in eastern Ukraine, agents of another country take over government buildings by armed force, take hostages, demand to secede and become part of that foreign country, then “terrorists” is not that far off, though “invaders” might be the better word. Eventually we’ll see what else they’re capable of doing, though Russia will probably do it more directly. It is doubtful Putin will wait until the May elections in Ukraine to take over more of Ukraine under some false pretense. Once the elections are held, he and his disinformation agents will no longer be able to falsely claim that there’s “no government” or an “illegitimate government” in Ukraine. He’ll still claim they’re fascists, of course, but everybody who opposes Putin’s territorial ambitions will be called “fascists” by Putin and those who sympathize with his imperialist ambitions.

Poor Russians in Russia. Even though they can be rightly be criticized for excessive jingoism, they’re paying for all of this. One does not keep tens of thousands of soldiers with their sophisticated equipment on alert without spending a lot of money. The leftists in the west who so decried the “waste” of American resources in Iraq are curiously silent about the “waste” of far more straitened Russian resources on keeping an army of 50,000 or so, on a foreign border, ready to strike. Nor do we hear criticisms of the money it took to arm the Russian agents who took over Ukrainian government buildings in Eastern Ukraine. Nor do we hear about the money it took to pay the agents, including western disinformation agents. Nor do we hear about the cost to the Russian people of the deep discounts Russia is giving Russians in Crimea for fuel as a sop to their having been conquered from within and without and brought into a poor country run by oligarchs who own everything. (Has Putin caught Bill Gates yet? Last I read, Putin is worth $40 billion)

But there is always a cost to imperial conquest, and the ordinary Russian is the one who will pay. His economy is practically third world. Unemployment is very high. There is the possibility the NATO countries in Europe will start developing their own fuel resources, reducing demand for the only export commodity Russia has, other than nesting dolls.

But the anti-western left doesn’t care about them, any more than it cares about the ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars who were “ethnically cleansed” from Crimea and are now refugees dependent on the benevolence of a not-too-prosperous Ukraine that is being forced by Russia to simultaneously build up some semblence of defensive forces.

The anti-western elements can accept any hardship, so long as it affects someone other than themselves, and as long as it serves the purposes of some anti-western totalitarian. In that respect, almost any totalitarian will do.

 

[Seamus_L]

17 police were killed in the Euromaidan riots, and a few hundred more were injured. Considering the ferocity with which the protesters attacked police, using fire bombs, bricks, heavy clubs, and even a few guns, the losses could have been even higher.
For all the claims of Russian special forces being behind the recent unrest in Eastern Ukraine, I sure have seen alot of photos of elderly people, middle aged women, young girls, and teenage boys on the protests. Could they be out on the streets because Russia ordered them too ? Or could it be that they've gotten very concerned about being second class citizens or even scapegoats in a new pro-Western Ukraine ?

 

[Ridgerunner]

                          For all the claims of Russian special forces being behind the recent unrest in Eastern Ukraine, I sure have seen alot of photos of elderly people, middle aged women, young girls, and teenage boys on the protests. Could they be out on the streets because Russia ordered them too ? Or could it be that they've gotten very concerned about being second class citizens or even scapegoats in a new pro-Western Ukraine ?

Amazing how anybody could take the part of one of the worst regimes on earth. But it must be admitted they do a good job of inducing others to blame the victims of their aggression. Always did. I recall reading that the Soviets spent about as much on disseminating disinformation as they did on their military. While both are undoubtedly reduced from the Soviet era, the proportion is probably about the same.

I’m sure they’re capable of getting photos purporting to demonstrate just about anything they want. I could phony that up myself in short order. Anybody could. And some would believe it if it fit their ideological predilections.

But one observes that Ukrainian and Russian speakers lived in peace until Putin’s minions went into Crimea and eastern Ukraine. There is little reason for Russian speakers there to think of themselves as scapegoats, and certain not sufficiently to invade Ukrainian government buildings with weapons and take hostages. As we may recall, Putin had his soldiers in Crimea stripped of insignia, but certainly not of weapons.

And it may be observed that no European country has seized so much as a square inch of Ukraine. Russia, on the other hand, seized a very large part of Ukraine and will undoubtedly seize even more of it. It’s in process now, in fact.

 

[josie_L]

17 police were killed in the Euromaidan riots, and a few hundred more were injured. Considering the ferocity with which the protesters attacked police, using fire bombs, bricks, heavy clubs, and even a few guns, the losses could have been even higher.

88 were killed in the Euromaidan protests, and many more injured, as for fire bombs, bricks and such that was only after they were shot upon by police, which resulted in the death of several maidan protestors, i.e., they used violence because violence was used on them. Note that the people who have been taking over government building in Eastern Ukraine have not suffered wounds or what not, because the police have not been told by the new Ukrainian government to use violence like Yanukovych did to stop the protests in Kyiv.

For all the claims of Russian special forces being behind the recent unrest in Eastern Ukraine, I sure have seen alot of photos of elderly people, middle aged women, young girls, and teenage boys on the protests. Could they be out on the streets because Russia ordered them too ? Or could it be that they’ve gotten very concerned about being second class citizens or even scapegoats in a new pro-Western Ukraine ?

Photos taken prior to the current unrest, i.e., it has been proven that busloads of Russians were brought to protest, as such, many of the protestors in the photos could very well be Russian. Moreover, there has been no attempt by the new Ukrainian government to treat Russian ethnic Ukrainians as second class citizens, and if they believe that, it is because they are listening to Russian propagandist news.

 

[josie_L]

Amazing how anybody could take the part of one of the worst regimes on earth. But it must be admitted they do a good job of inducing others to blame the victims of their aggression. Always did. I recall reading that the Soviets spent about as much on disseminating disinformation as they did on their military. While both are undoubtedly reduced from the Soviet era, the proportion is probably about the same.

I’m sure they’re capable of getting photos purporting to demonstrate just about anything they want. I could phony that up myself in short order. Anybody could. And some would believe it if it fit their ideological predilections.

But one observes that Ukrainian and Russian speakers lived in peace until Putin’s minions went into Crimea and eastern Ukraine. There is little reason for Russian speakers there to think of themselves as scapegoats, and certain not sufficiently to invade Ukrainian government buildings with weapons and take hostages. As we may recall, Putin had his soldiers in Crimea stripped of insignia, but certainly not of weapons.

And it may be observed that no European country has seized so much as a square inch of Ukraine. Russia, on the other hand, seized a very large part of Ukraine and will undoubtedly seize even more of it. It’s in process now, in fact.

I’m in awe of how people can still defend Putin and/or Russia.

 

[Ridgerunner]

17 police were killed in the Euromaidan riots, and a few hundred more were injured. Considering the ferocity with which the protesters attacked police, using fire bombs, bricks, heavy clubs, and even a few guns, the losses could have been even higher.

Given the ferocity with which Russian provocateurs and Yanukovych’s thugs attacked the protesters you mean? And some protesters actually tried to defend against the well-trained snipers? No surprise there.

Anti-western propaganda undoubtedly persuades those who are inclined to anti-western patterns of thought. But the reality is that the Maidan protests were massive, popular protests against Yanukovych and his thuggish pro-Putin regime.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/13/russian-propaganda-ukraine-fascist-protesters-euromaidan

And the further reality is that every adjoining country is very much alarmed by Russian aggresssion, even prompting historically-neutral Sweden to consider joining NATO. Think about that for a moment. Sweden considered herself so secure she didn’t even join the allies against Hitler. But in the face of Putin, she’s considering it. And the additional reality is that Russia has seized part of Ukraine and has annexed it to Russia. No amount of rationalization can change that.

Much of Europe, which has to live on the continent with Putin, is extremely worried, and not about some protesters on the Maidan.