Ukraine (cont.)

[TaurusRex]

I am quite surprised about how many people on Catholic forum support Russian Nazi. This ‘rescue’ of Crimea - ever heard about Hitler rescuing Sudetenland?
We all living in neighbouring countries consider Ukraine conflict as repeating pattern of German Nazi politics in 1939.
Also I am worried about priests and sisters located in Crimea, some of them I know personally.

I do not, but yes, there are quite a few. And I am worried about the priest/sisters too, well, all Catholics really, i.e., Catholics are not treated so well in Russia. And I’m not so sure how the Tatars will fare?? But it doesn’t look good.

You folks might want to try reading about the “Red Terror” in the Spanish Civil War …
they were basically Bolsheviks on the Republican side apparently seizing the opportunity to satisfy an old grudge concerning the Spanish Inquisition when because of their affiliation with the Moors at the time, the RCC forced them to convert or be rooted out of Spain.

Anyway in the Spanish Civil War the Red Terror made the mistake of murdering over 6000 Catholic clergy which brought Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany to the aid of Franco on the Nationalist side and in defense of my Italian ancestry, the Italian soldiers truly felt they were defending the Roman Catholic Church.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain

The Red Terror[3] in Spain (Spanish: Terror Rojo en España) is the name given by historians to various acts committed “by sections of nearly all the leftist groups”[4][5] such as the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832[6] members of the Catholic clergy,

For those of you feeling so smug concerning those of us concerned with honestly preserving the peace through truth and justice, try reading the contents of this link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War

Support for the Nationalists
Support for the Republicans

Read the parts where the Republican and Nationalist sides are defined and be sure to read the fine details because a good portion of the whole western world was involved from Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Italians and Poles to Americans, Jews, Mexicans and Soviets and many of them including the Americans, Irish, Brits and Italians to name a few were on both sides.

Yes, it was a really mixed up affair with Americans on the same side as the Soviets and Irishmen on the same side as the Nazis …

Our American history teacher referred to it as a testing ground for new weapons …
not ever a mention of 6000 dead Catholic clergy and then our capitalist/moderately fascist American society after WWII took up business as usual with Franco’s fascist Spanish regime.

PS:
Russia is no longer the Soviet red terror.

rex

 

[Vouthon]

BTW I should add that if an ethnic group legally secedes from another nation-state to form its own country, it has my full support even though I would rather that the state in question had more than one ethnic group and did so not only for reasons of culture, since this can lead to dangerous ethnic racism. As a general principle I believe that it is good for countries to be comprised of minority ethnicities and groups, or even majority almost 50/50 ethnic differences, so as to enable tolerance of the “other” and political beliefs to unite people above the level of their own cultures. As I say, the United Kingdom is the oldest example of a successful multi-ethnic state. Scotland is a country, England is a country, Wales is a country, Northern Ireland is a country but we have been together for centuries.

The occupation of Crimea by Russian troops invalidates this referendum, unlike the Scottish one that my country is going to hold later this year which grew out of a long process of negotiation with the British government that was finalized by Royal Assent on 17 December 2013.

While I personally will be voting “no” in the Scottish referendum, I hold it up proudly as an example to the world of how to legally and morally allow the people of a region of a sovereign state to have the democratic opportunity to determine their own future.

 

[pepipop]

On a purely personal level, I just want to say that most Scots are Unionists. The only reason we voted - not me personally but as a populace - for the Scottish National Party, was as a protest against our traditional Labour Party and its incessant failures. The SNP are expected to lose the referendum. I will be voting “no” in the referendum later this year. I detest nationalism, especially ethnic nationalism: which has been a vehicle for more human suffering than anything else.

The United Kingdom was about different ethnicities - English, Scots, Irish and Welsh - joining together and transcending their racial, cultural and linguistic differences through an attachment to common institutions such as the monarch, parliament and a sense of shared values. It has lasted for more than 300 years and is a striking example to the world.

An independent Scotland would be a much more ethnically homogeneous state. That is not a good thing in my book. In the middle ages there was a transnational Christendom. Religions are universal and unite people beyond race and boundaries. Nationalism is a curse from the enlightenment era that creates division in the human family and leads to friction between brothers worldwide. It has never done anything beneficial for the human race.

I believe that nation-states should be created not on the basis of ethnicity but rather on the foundation of common values, institutions, citizenship, political practices and so on. Consider the United States constitution, “We hold these truths to be self-evident…” This is a constitutional patriotism whereby citizens of different ethnic groups are unified by one common political creed.

I know I shouldn’t - but having lived in Scotland for 12 years - I have to say that was not the way I saw it when I lived in Edinburgh. The anti-English feelings were rampant, especially in Glasgow. I read, regularly, about English families being thrown out of housing estates because they were not wanted in Scotland and told to go home. Football, rugby matches - if England were playing as long as the ‘other’ side won, that’s who was supported.

Not to be disrespectful to your viewpoint and I agree that most Scots would prefer to remain in the Union, however mostly for economic reasons. I still have two family members living in Edinburgh and this is just my experience, over a 12 year period and meeting people from all walks of life. I have two NI protestant friends, who studied at University there, and their comments were the same, they could not believe the anti-English sentiment (mind you they did study at Aberdeen!)

 

[josie_L]

You folks might want to try reading about the “Red Terror” in the Spanish Civil War …they were basically Bolsheviks on the Republican side apparently seizing the opportunity to satisfy an old grudge concerning the Spanish Inquisition when because of their affiliation with the Moors at the time, the RCC forced them to convert or be rooted out of Spain.

Wrong, the RCC did not coerce anyone to convert, i.e., it was the Spanish government who was in control of the inquisition, although the pope initially agreed to it, i.e., to inquire into the supposed faith of Conversos (it was believed that some Conversos only adopted Christianity because it would allow them into positions of power). Moreover, the situation in Spain with regard to the Moors and the Spaniards was the longest standing war to date, with the former having conquered it’s way into the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century. Were it not for the diligent efforts of Spanish kings and soldiers much of Europe would be Muslim!

Anyway in the Spanish Civil War the Red Terror **made the mistake of murdering over 6000 **Catholic clergy which brought Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany to the aid of Franco on the Nationalist side and in defense of my Italian ancestry, the Italian soldiers truly felt they were defending the Roman Catholic Church.

Oh, I see they “made the mistake” of killing 6000 people, who knew?? Not that this event had anything to do with their maniacal hatred of religion being that Communism/ Bolshevism is an atheistic ideology .

For those of you feeling so smug concerning those of us concerned with honestly preserving the peace through truth and justice, try reading the contents of this link:

No, not smug, but justifiably angry about the PRESENT situation that PUTIN caused with his occupation of the Ukraine, which may possibly lead to war. But thanks for telling us we’re SMUG.

Read the parts where the Republican and Nationalist sides are defined and be sure to read the fine details because a good portion of the whole western world was involved from Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Italians and Poles to Americans, Jews, Mexicans and Soviets and many of them including the Americans, Irish, Brits and Italians to name a few were on both sides.

Yes, it was a really mixed up affair with Americans on the same side as the Soviets and Irishmen on the same side as the Nazis …

And your point being that because of this we should allow Putin to run roughshod over Ukraine?

Our American history teacher referred to it as a testing ground for new weapons not ever a mention of 6000 dead Catholic clergy and then our capitalist/moderately fascist American society after WWII took up business as usual with Franco’s fascist Spanish regime.

And who would you rather have in power in Spain during that time, the “Red Terror” or Franco because realistically those were the choices?

 

[josie_L]

On a purely personal level, I just want to say that most Scots are Unionists. The only reason we voted - not me personally but as a populace - for the Scottish National Party, was as a protest against our traditional Labour Party and its incessant failures. The SNP are expected to lose the referendum. I will be voting “no” in the referendum later this year. I detest nationalism, especially ethnic nationalism: which has been a vehicle for more human suffering than anything else.

The United Kingdom was about different ethnicities - English, Scots, Irish and Welsh - joining together and transcending their racial, cultural and linguistic differences through an attachment to common institutions such as the monarch, parliament and a sense of shared values. It has lasted for more than 300 years and is a striking example to the world.

An independent Scotland would be a much more ethnically homogeneous state. That is not a good thing in my book. In the middle ages there was a transnational Christendom. Religions are universal and unite people beyond race and boundaries. Nationalism is a curse from the era of 17th absolute monarchies that creates division in the human family and leads to friction between brothers worldwide. It has never done anything beneficial for the human race.

I believe that nation-states should be created not on the basis of ethnicity but rather on the foundation of common values, institutions, citizenship, political practices and so on. Consider the United States constitution, “We hold these truths to be self-evident…” This is a constitutional patriotism whereby citizens of different ethnic groups are unified by one common political creed.

The French Republic is another example of this “constitutional patriotism” which is set against ethnic nationalism, which defies race and one culture as superior to others.

Vouthon, I wrote what I wrote because Nekla is so concerned with the independence of Crimea, that I assume when the time comes for Scotland to secede (if it should happen) then he/she will have no problems with that even though the present British Prime Minister is not pleased with the idea of Scotland seceding (and you yourself stated that he would impose sanctions of some sort if they tried).

 

[Vouthon]

Dear pepipop

I do not find your post disrespectful in the slightest

Mild anglophobia should not be inflated. Yes, we like it when the English lose at football. Yes, we delight and relish when even Bayern Munich beat Manchester United However, brothers compete in the same way with each other within families. When it comes down to it, we recognize how successful we have been together. I mean, just look at how prominent Scots have been in British history: David Livingstone, the poster child for the 19th century British Christian explorer. The Scottish Enlightenment occurred when we were part of the Union. We excelled as a people in union with other peoples on this island of ours. Most Scots believe that we are better together.

I was born and brought up in Glasgow but have lived in Edinburgh for four years. There is no one in my family voting for independence. There was a poll held in Glasgow University last year and the students voted overwhelmingly against secession. We are not Crimea.

There is a great deal of playfulness involved in the Scottish-English rivalry, born of centuries, that is often missed by outsiders. It isn’t hatred!

Scotland has a real traditional sense of itself as being a small neighbour to a much bigger country that always got the short straw. In WW1 for example, Scotland suffered disproportionate losses for its small population. We are proud of our distinctness from the English but we do not actually, when it comes down to it, want to be separated from them.

We have our own legal system (Scots Law existed past the union), our own parliament, our own education system, our own traditions. None of these were affected or belittled by the Union. Our cultural and ethnic identity does not need its own independent, sovereign political identity.

When he was a young man, Pope Pius II then called Aenaeus visited Scotland in 1435. He recorded his experiences in a book called The Commentaries which were his memoirs. He wrote:

“…The following facts about Scotland seem worth recording. It is an island two hundred miles long and fifty wide, connected with Britain and extending toward the north. It is a cold country where few things will grow and for the most part it has no trees. Below the ground is found a sulphurous rock, which they dig for fuel. The cities have no walls. The houses are usually constructed without mortar; their roofs are covered with turf; and the country doorways are closed with oxhides. The common people, who are poor and rude, stuff themselves with meat and fish, but eat bread as a luxury. The men are short and brave; the women fair, charming, and easily won. Women there think less of a kiss than in Italy of a touch of a hand. They have no wine except what they import. Their horses are small and natural trotters. They keep a few for breeding and castrate the rest. They do not curry them with iron or comb them with wooden combs or guide them with bridles. The oysters are larger than those in England and many pearls are found in them. Leather, wool, fish, and pearls are exported from Scotland to Belgium. There is nothing the Scotch like better to hear than abuse of the English. It is said there are two Scotlands, one cultivated, the other wooded with no open land. The Scots who live in the latter part speak a different language and sometimes use the bark of trees for food. There are no wolves in Scotland. Crows are rare and therefore the trees in which they nest are the property of the royal treasury, Aeneas also used to say that, before he went to Scotland, he had heard there were trees there growing along a river, the fruit of which rotted, if it fell on the ground, but if it fell into the water, came to life and turned into birds; but, when he eagerly investigated this marvel on the spot, he found that it was all a lie or, if true, had been moved on to the Orcades Islands. He did, however, vouch for the truth of the following statement: at the winter solstice (Aeneas was there then) the day in Scotland is not more than four hours long…”

- Pope Pius II (1458-1464)

I always find this hilarious! (although the comment about the looseness of Scottish ladies is shocking coming from a young man who would one day become pope! )

It is not just economic reasons that tie us to the rest of the United Kingdom. The majority of Scots believe that the Union is part of our identity. They don’t see a conflict between being Scottish and being British, because “Britishness” is not about ethnicity. There is no British “race”. The very idea of “Britain” is much like the European Union, it is something that transcends our ethnic identity and completes it in a sense, by creating solidarity with other ethnic groups through common institutions and values. What really did this for us was the son of Mary Queen of Scots becoming King of England. The union of the crowns is something so treasured historically that not even the SNP are planning to abolish it. Scotland if it becomes independent will be a Kingdom under Queen Elizabeth II, not a republic like Ireland. Alex Salmond, our First Minister and leader of the SNP, is an avowed monarchist.

The Union brought together peoples who had previously been hostile to one another and together they went on to influence the rest of the planet through the largest empire in human history. Scots, again, served disproportionately in that empire.

The UK has been a very successful nation-state and most Scots are proud of their participation in having made it work historically.

Winston Churchill once said, “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind”.

And most of that “contribution” happened in the course of the Union.

Praise from an Englishman who was once an MP for Aberdeen.

 

[josie_L]

Dear pepipop

I do not find your post disrespectful in the slightest

Mild anglophobia should not be inflated. Yes, we like it when the English lose at football. Yes, we delight and relish when even Bayern Munich beat Manchester United However, brothers compete in the same way with each other within families. When it comes down to it, we recognize how successful we have been together. I mean, just look at how prominent Scots have been in British history: David Livingstone, the poster child for the 19th century British Christian explorer. The Scottish Enlightenment occurred when we were part of the Union. We excelled as a people in union with other peoples on this island of ours. Most Scots believe that we are better together.

I was born and brought up in Glasgow but have lived in Edinburgh for four years. There is no one in my family voting for independence. There was a poll held in Glasgow University last year and the students voted overwhelmingly against secession. We are not Crimea.

There is a great deal of playfulness involved in the Scottish-English rivalry, born of centuries, that is often missed by outsiders. It isn’t hatred!

Scotland has a real traditional sense of itself as being a small neighbour to a much bigger country that always got the short straw. In WW1 for example, Scotland suffered disproportionate losses for its small population. We are proud of our distinctness from the English but we do not actually, when it comes down to it, want to be separated from them.

We have our own legal system (Scots Law existed past the union), our own parliament, our own education system, our own traditions. None of these were affected or belittled by the Union. Our cultural and ethnic identity does not need its own independent, sovereign political identity.

When he was a young man, Pope Pius II then called Aenaeus visited Scotland in 1435. He recorded his experiences in a book called The Commentaries which were his memoirs. He wrote:

I always find this hilarious! (although the comment about the looseness of Scottish ladies is shocking coming from a young man who would one day become pope! )

It is not just economic reasons that tie us to the rest of the United Kingdom. The majority of Scots believe that the Union is part of our identity. They don’t see a conflict between being Scottish and being British, because “Britishness” is not about ethnicity. There is no British “race”. The very idea of “Britain” is much like the European Union, it is something that transcends our ethnic identity and completes it in a sense, by creating solidarity with other ethnic groups through common institutions and values. What really did this for us was the son of Mary Queen of Scots becoming King of England. The union of the crowns is something so treasured historically that not even the SNP are planning to abolish it. Scotland if it becomes independent will be a Kingdom under Queen Elizabeth II, not a republic like Ireland. Alex Salmond, our First Minister and leader of the SNP, is an avowed monarchist.

The Union brought together peoples who had previously been hostile to one another and together they went on to influence the rest of the planet through the largest empire in human history. Scots, again, served disproportionately in that empire.

The UK has been a very successful nation-state and most Scots are proud of their participation in having made it work historically.

Winston Churchill once said, “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind”.

And most of that “contribution” happened in the course of the Union.

Praise from an Englishman who was once an MP for Aberdeen.

What of the Battle of Culloden and bonnie Prince Charles? Although I’d rather you pm’ed me because I don’t want to derail this thread even further.

 

[Vouthon]

Vouthon, I wrote what I wrote because Nekla is so concerned with the independence of Crimea, that I assume when the time comes for Scotland to secede (if it should happen) then he/she will have no problems with that even though the present British Prime Minister is not pleased with the idea of Scotland seceding (and you yourself stated that he would impose sanctions of some sort if they tried).

Oh I know that brother, I wasn’t chastising you I absolutely love your posts. I was only saying that so that people do not get the impression that there is a strong desire within the Scottish electorate to consign the Act of Union 1707 to the dustbin of history. There isn’t.

If there was an unexpected victory for the “Yes Campaign” however, I would not in any way object because it is a legal vote recognised by the British Parliament. The democratic will of the people will decide, unlike in Crimea which is under Russian occupation!

It is just that at the present it is not very likely at all that Scotland will become independent.

 

[josie_L]

Oh I know that brother, I wasn’t chastising you I absolutely love your posts. I was only saying that so that people do not get the impression that there is a strong desire within the Scottish electorate to consign the Act of Union 1707 to the dustbin of history. There isn’t.

If there was an unexpected victory for the “Yes Campaign” however, I would not in any way object because it is a legal vote recognised by the British Parliament. The democratic will of the people will decide, unlike in Crimea which is under Russian occupation!

It is just that at the present it is not very likely at all that Scotland will become independent.

Dear brother Vouthon, I’m a girl!!

 

[Vouthon]

What of the Battle of Culloden and bonnie Prince Charles? Although I’d rather you pm’ed because I don’t want to derail this thread even further.

Apologies I will PM you if you would like?

It is kind of a connected issue though because the Russians have been making abstruse analogies to the Scottish referendum, as if our legal referendum legitimises their decision to occupy the territory of a neighbouring country

 

[Vouthon]

Dear brother Vouthon, I’m a girl!!

My, my I must be really tired today! Josie - Josephine, of course. I must have been confusing your forum name for Joe. Silly me, sincere apologies as well

 

[Seamus_L]

Putin’s Rating at 3-Year High themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putins-rating-at-3-year-high/496131.html

 

[josie_L]

Apologies I will PM you if you would like?

It is kind of a connected issue though because the Russians have been making abstruse analogies to the Scottish referendum, as if our legal referendum legitimises their decision to occupy the territory of a neighbouring country

No, apologies necessary, and yes, I would like that you pm me, although, it’s not necessary. It’s just something I remembered reading, and well, I recollect how much suffering it caused the Scots, i.e., the battle of Culloden.

 

[josie_L]

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Moscow warn of the risks of secession. Archbishop Klyment accuses Europe of watching idly. Metropolitan Onufry calls on Russia not to divide the Ukraine. If it does, it will open a bloody wound that will be reflected painfully on the relations between the two brotherly peoples.

Moscow (AsiaNews) - The life of Ukrainians in Crimea is presently under threat, warned Klyment, Archbishop of Simferopol and Crimea of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate, just days before the 16 March referendum on the peninsula’s annexation to Russia.

“All the propaganda is pushing the message that if you are a Ukrainian, you are a Bandera supporter, and should be killed,” he said at a press conference at the Ukraine Crisis Media Center. Stepan Bandera is a 20th century Ukrainian ultranationalist, who is admired in western Ukraine and seen as pro-Hitler in eastern Ukraine and Russia.

Speaking out publicly twice this week in Simferopol, the capital of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Klyment called on the faithful to pray for peace and the integrity of the country, joining members of the clergy, Euromaidan movement activists and representatives of the Crimean Tatar community (12 per cent of the population).

**These are the three main groups who now dare challenge Crimea’s pro-Russian self-defence army, whose gun-toting men are everywhere in the region’s cities, threatening and deterring anyone who wants to express support for the central government in Kyiv or opposition to the “Russian occupation”. **

“Maidan” or “Ukraine” are considered “provocative” concepts in the Crimea, the only region in the country with a Russian majority whose local parliament has already voted for secession and in fact expects to be annexed by Moscow, as campaign leaflets suggest.

Bemoaning attacks against journalists, the Orthodox archbishop highlighted the plight of Anatoli Kovalsky and Andrei Schekun, two of the organisers of the Euromaidan Crimea movement, who went missing on Sunday, seized by pro-Russian activists.

By contrast, the temporary head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolitan Onufry, is less alarmist. Nevertheless, he too made another appeal for social harmony and the country’s integrity.

“We must help people understand that problems must be solved in a peaceful way, that one cannot offend others, much less kill them,” the Metropolitan said in an interview with the paper of the Moscow Patriarchate.

asianews.it/news-en/Crimea:-on-the-eve-of-the-referendum-the-Ukrainian-Church-appeals-for-the-country’s-integrity-30555.html

 

[josie_L]

Putin’s Rating at 3-Year High themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putins-rating-at-3-year-high/496131.html

Putin’s rating world wide: :banghead:

 

[Vouthon]

No, apologies necessary, and yes, I would like that you pm me, although, it’s not necessary. It’s just something I remembered reading, and well, I recollect how much suffering it caused the Scots, i.e., the battle of Culloden and the ensuing aftermath.

I will PM you my dear sister in Christ, when time allows Culloden is a very romanticized tragedy in Scottish culture. Every Scottish kid learns about Bonnie Prince Charlie at school

 

[TaurusRex]

You folks might want to try reading about the “Red Terror” in the Spanish Civil War …
they were basically Bolsheviks on the Republican side apparently seizing the opportunity to satisfy an old grudge concerning the Spanish Inquisition when because of their affiliation with the Moors at the time, the RCC forced them to convert or be rooted out of Spain.

Anyway in the Spanish Civil War the Red Terror made the mistake of murdering over 6000 Catholic clergy which brought Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany to the aid of Franco on the Nationalist side and in defense of my Italian ancestry, the Italian soldiers truly felt they were defending the Roman Catholic Church.

For those of you feeling so smug concerning those of us concerned with honestly preserving the peace through truth and justice, try reading the contents of this link:

Read the parts where the Republican and Nationalist sides are defined and be sure to read the fine details because a good portion of the whole western world was involved from Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Italians and Poles to Americans, Jews, Mexicans and Soviets and many of them including the Americans, Irish, Brits and Italians to name a few were on both sides.

Yes, it was a really mixed up affair with Americans on the same side as the Soviets and Irishmen on the same side as the Nazis …

Our American history teacher referred to it as a testing ground for new weapons …
not ever a mention of 6000 dead Catholic clergy and then our capitalist/moderately fascist American society after WWII took up business as usual with Franco’s fascist Spanish regime.

PS:
Russia is no longer the Soviet red terror.

rex

Wrong, the RCC did not coerce anyone to convert, i.e., it was the Spanish government who was in control of the inquisition, although the pope initially agreed to it, i.e., to inquire into the supposed faith of Conversos (it was believed that some Conversos only adopted Christianity because it would allow them into positions of power). Moreover, the situation in Spain with regard to the Moors and the Spaniards was the longest standing war to date, with the former having conquered it’s way into the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century. Were it not for the diligent efforts of Spanish kings and soldiers much of Europe would be Muslim!

Oh, I see they “made the mistake” of killing 6000 people, who knew?? Not that this event had anything to do with their maniacal hatred of religion being that Communism/ Bolshevism is an atheistic ideology .

No, not smug, but justifiably angry about the PRESENT situation that PUTIN caused with his occupation of the Ukraine, which may possibly lead to war. But thanks for telling us we’re SMUG.

And your point being that because of this we should allow Putin to run roughshod over Ukraine?

And who would you rather have in power in Spain during that time, the “Red Terror” or Franco because realistically those were the choices?

In hopes it will help my argument I’m saying now that there was an attempt on my part to speak a little cynically because although I’ve revealed hypocrisy all over the western world concerning the Spanish Civil War, yes I’m certainly happy that the RCC in Spain was saved and Franco remained in power even though his saviors have been condemned for all eternity by the western world due to their later atrocities in WWII.

As far as my meaning that the “red terror made the mistake of murdering 6000 Catholic clergy” I’ll say here that I suspected your “being a girl” for several posts because of the way you can twist words (not even sure of your meaning of “who knew??”), but I’ll go at it again for clarification on my part.
Yes the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War was represented by I guess many atheists including the red terror which as far as I understand couldn’t restrain themselves from murdering over 6000 Catholic priests and nuns …

The mistake was that the basic Spanish population rose up against the Republicans to side with the Nationalists because of that atrocity against the RCC not to mention it also caused Mussolini and Hitler to go to Franco’s aid.

On the matter of my being right or wrong about the conversions, I think you’re getting petty there because they were being converted to Roman Catholicism and as a matter of fact I think I could find proof that the Holy Roman Empire was called that because law and justice was administered by the Roman Catholic Church in those days.

PS:
On the matter of my “smug” comment my purpose was to air some of the closets of some folks with my post because don’t you think for example that the USA seemed awkward fighting alongside atheist red terrorists (oops guess it was for democracy then too??) …
Again I’m a Roman Catholic Italian American and proud of it, but I’m also pushing 71 years of age and Catholics are still only about 25% of the population of the USA (a basically Protestant country with that clause about “making no law respecting an establishment of religion” (atheists?)).

I’m saying that an element of Americans got into the history books as supporting the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War and for one reason or another they cared less if the Roman Catholic Church were torn asunder in Spain at the time.
Okay start twisting,
God knows I’ve heard Hillary Clinton’s words of “what difference does it make” twisted without the rest of her comments included enough times …
if she can take it, I can too.

rex

 

[Nelka]

Vouthon, I wrote what I wrote because Nekla is so concerned with the independence of Crimea, that I assume when the time comes for Scotland to secede (if it should happen) then he/she will have no problems with that even though the present British Prime Minister is not pleased with the idea of Scotland seceding (and you yourself stated that he would impose sanctions of some sort if they tried).

As an Englishman I can tell you that it will make me very happy if England and Scotland part ways, I would also like us to part from Northern Ireland and the eu too.

What annoys me is that the Scottish are allowed to vomit bile at us but if we do the same to them we are called racists and fascists etc.

David Cameron doesn’t want the UK to break up or for us to leave the eu as it will give him more work to do, I am sure he would rather it happen when someone else is PM which is why the vote for the eu he is promising is in 2017 and not now.

As for us giving Scotland sanctions that is ridiculous. Salmond is someone who wants to pick and choose what he wants and leave the rest for us.

**Goodbye to my England-So long my old friend
Your days are now numbered, being brought to an end
To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh, that’s just fine
But don’t say you’re English, that’s way out of line.

The French and the Germans may call themselves such,
As may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch,
You can say you are Russian, or maybe a Dane.
But don’t say you’re English, not ever again

At Broadcasting House that word is taboo
In Brussels they’ve scrapped it, in Parliament too,
Even schools are affected, staff do as they’re told,
They mustn’t teach children about the England of old

Let’s tell our government and Brussels too
We’re proud of our heritage just like they are too.
Fly the flag of St. George not the Union Jack.
Let the world know- WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK!**

 

[gilliam]

Getting back to Ukraine, here is some interesting history:

Ukraine maps chart Crimea’s troubled past

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26476314

 

[Vouthon]

As an Englishman I can tell you that it will make me very happy if England and Scotland part ways, I would also like us to part from Northern Ireland and the eu too.

Well, as a Scotsman, you may want to part ways from me but I don’t want to part ways from you, something I think will become apparent when you see the results from the referendum at the end of the year

I don’t think your view is popular in England either, minus the EU (which most Brits aren’t in favour of, just seems to be a creeping consensus). Most English relatives of mine (my aunt and cousins are English) have a strong British identity and certainly don’t want Scotland to secede from the union.

Also this is heavily off-topic so we better quit it (my fault largely!)