Ukraine (cont.)

[GaryTaylor]

"Pretty Late’

“We have obviously not gotten to a situation where Russia has chosen to de-escalate” and that is “regrettable,” White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters in Washington. “We are pretty late in the game here with regards to the situation in Crimea,” he said, adding that the U.S. stands “ready to respond” should the referendum “go forward.”

businessweek.com/news/2014-03-14/russia-says-kiev-not-in-control-of-ukraine-as-crimean-vote-looms

 

[gilliam]

Why? What would he gain by taking over the Ukraine?

• Black Sea port in Crimea can be supplied via direct land routes from Russia
• Ukraine controls a lot of the natural gas pipelines from Russia to the EU. Ukraine can threaten to cut the flow for political reasons that will hurt Russia’s oligarchs.
• Buffer state between Russia and NATO aligned Poland
• Ukraine is key to his plans on resurrecting the idea of a “New Russia” or a “Greater Russian” similar to the Russia of the Czars.
• Ukraine has historically been part of Russia
• In this cold war with the West he “wins” and shows he is strong, which the competitor in Putin constantly strives to do.

Lots of reasons

 

[gilliam]

Yes, and to some Russians, Ukraine is Little Russia, Tchaikovsky even did a symphony with that name. The problem is that Russia has been made to feel that there world is gradually closing in, I,e Warsaw Pact is no more while NATO-EU keep growing.

Russia could be part of Europe. Putin and his gang are the ones choosing not to be.

 

[josie_L]

Russia has “occupied” Crimea since the late 1700s. It has only been Ukranian since 1954, and even then there has always been a Russian military presence. We still don’t know if the troops without insignia were Russian military, Crimean, or what.

Yes, we do, you just don’t want to believe the majority of media that has confirmed this.

Ukraine is currently under a government that took power via a coup - the current leaders were not elected. President Yanukovych had agreed to step down and for elections to be held the day before the coup happened. The protesters had already won, and then they chose to immediately seize power instead of being elected. In reaction to this, pro-Russian protesters in the Crimea did the same. Both sides are in power illegally.

No, it was not a coup, Yanukovych was ousted by parliament, i.e., once Yanukovych transferred power back to parliament as per the 2004 constitution, he knew he was done in for, i.e., the corruption that marked his regime would be exposed, so he fled the country, and parliament ousted him.

Under EU pressure he signed a deal to transfer powers to parliament and hold early elections. But within hours he had fled the capital and his administration had crumbled.

As Ukraine’s protest leaders and opposition moved to fill the power vacuum, Mr Yanukovych, 63, maintained he was still the lawfully elected president.

As he headed for neighbouring Russia, Kiev’s new rulers issued an arrest warrant for his role in the “mass murder of innocent civilians”.

bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

FEBRUARY

18: 20,000 protestors march to parliament with MPs set to debate a possible new constitution. At least 17 people, including seven policeman, are killed as fresh clashes erupt.
19: Truce agreed.
20: Truce breaks down, fresh clashes see 48-hour death toll rise to at least 77.
21: Peace deal signed, with talk of early elections. Violence spreads to western Ukraine.
22: Protesters freely take control of presidential buildings amid reports Yanukovych has fled. Parliament votes to remove him with fresh elections set for May. Yanukovych appears on TV and denounces a “coup d’etat”. Opposition leader Tymoshenko released from jail.
23: Tymoshenko ally becomes acting president, saying European integration is a priority.
25: Parliament votes for ousted Yanukovych to be tried at International Criminal Court.
26: Interim government moves to disband Ukraine’s riot police force as leaks lift the lid on the high-living of ousted president Yanukovych.
27: Reports emerge suggesting Yanukovych is now in Russia as parliament appoints new pro-EU government. It comes amid fears of separatism after pro-Russian gunmen takeover government building in Crimea.
28: Yanukovych, speaking at a press conference, vows to fight for Ukraine, calls new government illegitimate and denies ordering police to fire on protesters. It comes as gunmen seize airports in Crimea.

euronews.com/2014/03/11/yanukovych-insists-on-tv-hes-still-in-charge-of-ukraine/

The next day, 22 February, he unaccountably disappeared: there was no threat of death or violence; he was still president. Security cameras show him and his guards loading vans and two helicopters with the valuables from a palace which he built for himself with government money and fleeing into the night. The documents he left behind showing where money came from and to whom it went provide a detailed incrimination; there is evidence that he and his closest circle stole about $10 billion each year directly from the budget via various corrupt schemes. On this legal basis, he and about 18 others are having their accounts frozen in Europe, Canada and the U.S.

thinkingfaith.org/articles/20140313_1.htm

There are no NATO bases in the Ukraine. That is the last thing that Putin wants to come out of this. The analogy was intended to illustrate why Putin is making the choices he is instead of simply calling him Hitler and having done with it. What I think is one of the biggest mistakes that he’s making is that he’s treating the current government of Crimea as legitimate, when they took power in exactly the same way as the current Ukrainian government.

Nobody has called Putin “Hitler”, but his basis for invading Crimea is similar to the excuses given by Hitler when he invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. And let me remind you that this is not the first time he’s used this pretext to invade a country, remember Georgia?

I honestly don’t see any party in this - the Ukrainian government, the Russian government, or the Crimean government - as the “good guys”. Were I in charge, the current Ukrainian and Crimean governments would both immediately step down and hold elections with international observers in place to verify the results, and Russia would be renegotiate its agreements regarding both natural gas supplies and the port at Sevastopol with both new governments after a full withdrawal of all ground troops.

No, I would not overthrow the Ukrainian government as they had every right to oust Yanukovych, moreover, elections will be held in May. The situation in Crimea however is different in that it is attempting to hold a referendum while under Russian occupation. There is no doubt who those troops are, the Russian government have has much admitted this, i.e., they were “invited” into Crimea.

 

[gilliam]

Russia says intercepted US drone over Crimea: arms group

Moscow (AFP) - A United States surveillance drone has been intercepted above the Ukranian region of Crimea, a Russian state arms and technology group said Friday.

“The drone was flying at about 4,000 metres (12,000 feet) and was virtually invisible from the ground. It was possible to break the link with US operators with complex radio-electronic” technology, said Rostec in a statement.

The drone fell “almost intact into the hands of self-defence forces” added Rostec, which said it had manufactured the equipment used to down the aircraft, but did not specify who was operating it.

news.yahoo.com/russia-says-intercepted-us-drone-over-crimea-arms-180430584.html;_ylt=At_B0i8Ttqvgrn8ZH8ESDpzQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBsdmNodWplBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHNlYwNzcg–

Earth to Omama: You can’t do everything with drones

 

[gilliam]

Did Russia Just Move Its Treasury Holdings Offshore?

blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/03/14/did-russia-just-dump-its-treasury-holdings/

 

[Miserissima]

Russia says deadly clashes in eastern Ukraine overnight show the Ukrainian government has lost control, and Moscow has the right to protect its people there.

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/14/russia-says-it-has-right-to-intervene-after-deadly-violence-in-ukraine/

en.ria.ru/world/20140314/188432661/East-Ukraines-Donetsk-Mourns-Deadly-Clash-Victims.html

I need to get to confession. The stream of expletives I just made, made the dog wake up and howl.

 

[Miserissima]

Russia says intercepted US drone over Crimea: arms group

Moscow (AFP) - A United States surveillance drone has been intercepted above the Ukranian region of Crimea, a Russian state arms and technology group said Friday.

“The drone was flying at about 4,000 metres (12,000 feet) and was virtually invisible from the ground. It was possible to break the link with US operators with complex radio-electronic” technology, said Rostec in a statement.

The drone fell “almost intact into the hands of self-defence forces” added Rostec, which said it had manufactured the equipment used to down the aircraft, but did not specify who was operating it.

news.yahoo.com/russia-says-intercepted-us-drone-over-crimea-arms-180430584.html;_ylt=At_B0i8Ttqvgrn8ZH8ESDpzQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBsdmNodWplBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHNlYwNzcg–

Earth to Omama: You can’t do everything with drones

That’s okay. The picture of the drone was really taken in Wyoming (referring to the pictures of tanks).

 

[Monkey1976]

• Black Sea port in Crimea can be supplied via direct land routes from Russia
• Ukraine controls a lot of the natural gas pipelines from Russia to the EU. Ukraine can threaten to cut the flow for political reasons that will hurt Russia’s oligarchs.
• Buffer state between Russia and NATO aligned Poland
• Ukraine is key to his plans on resurrecting the idea of a “New Russia” or a “Greater Russian” similar to the Russia of the Czars.
• Ukraine has historically been part of Russia
• In this cold war with the West he “wins” and shows he is strong, which the competitor in Putin constantly strives to do.

Lots of reasons

• That’s the Crimea, not Ukraine
• Ukraine depends on Russian gas. Cutting the flow would be slicing off their head to spite their face. Russia would still be able to ship gas via Belarus and Turkey.
• If Ukraine is part of Russia, then there is no buffer. He’s toe-to-toe with NATO. Like any other world leader, he’d rather have friendly countries on his borders as opposed to potential enemies.
• Can you give a source for these plans?
• And Crimea has historically not been part of the Ukraine
• He’s already done that. Taking the Ukraine proper would only invite open conflict.

 

[josie_L]

Russia says deadly clashes in eastern Ukraine overnight show the Ukrainian government has lost control, and Moscow has the right to protect its people there.

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/14/russia-says-it-has-right-to-intervene-after-deadly-violence-in-ukraine/

en.ria.ru/world/20140314/188432661/East-Ukraines-Donetsk-Mourns-Deadly-Clash-Victims.html

So Russia creates the tensive atmosphere by occupying the Ukraine and allowing thugs to roam free, and then blames the Ukrainian government.

Donetsk (Ukraine) (AFP) - A pro-Kiev protester was stabbed and killed Thursday in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk, in the first death since tensions began in the southeast of the country with Russia’s advance in Crimea.

The 22-year-old was killed as demonstrators were attacked by a pro-Moscow rally, health services said.

“According to preliminary conclusions by doctors, he has been stabbed,” the local branch of Ukraine’s health ministry told AFP, as regional authorities spoke of another 16 wounded in the clashes.

Thirteen of these were in trauma or in surgery with serious injuries, one was hospitalised and two could be treated at the scene, Ilya Suzdalev, a spokesman for the regional authorities, said.

Some 1,000 pro-Kiev had rallied in the eastern Ukrainian city, once a bastion of support for ousted president Viktor Yanukovych, when they were attacked by participants in a 2,000-strong pro-Moscow rally, which broke through a police cordon, the local health ministry said.

It was not clear which side the wounded belonged to.

news.yahoo.com/pro-kiev-protester-killed-east-ukraine-rally-clash-201615268.html

 

[Seamus_L]

Well, that’s one way you can look at it, on the other hand Russian sources say that attacks were started by the other side. at this point I don’t know, but I’ve already seen enough violent videos of the Euromaidan folks to consider the possibility that they could have iniated the violence.

 

[TaurusRex]

I am not twisting or warping anything, it is your inability to properly express yourself that is causing you problems, for example, who uses “Mother Russia” if they themselves are not from Russia, and then when I tell you that “Russia is not my mother”, you act offended, and attempt to reprimand me. Then you claim that the Republicans “made the mistake of killing 6000 religious” or that they “couldn’t restrain themselves” . . . . . reread your posts and see why someone like myself might get offended by the words you’ve used.

Nobody implied that Russia today is the same as what it was under Communism, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have elements of the totalitarian while it’s been under the leadership of Putin.

I thought they were neo-Nazis, that is, Russia’s leadership/media is projecting the present Ukrainian government as neo-Nazis.

P.S. It’s obvious you side with the Russians, so good for you, but I on the other hand will not be force fed lies distributed by Putin and his lackeys, i.e., the Russian media.

Hopefully Moderator you’ll allow me to post this link to demonstrate use of “Mother Russia”:

bing.com/videos/search?q=mother+russia&qpvt=mother+russia&FORM

bing.com/videos/search?q=mother+russia&qpvt=mother+russia&FORM#view=detail&mid=89C8A259BCD54E31F2C889C8A259BCD54E31F2C8

And these two links to demonstrate communism in Ukraine:

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080219192445AA4sN37

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/129339/Communist-Party-of-Ukraine

Also folks there is such a thing as a communist democracy (i.e. the people can use their democratic right to vote to chose a communistic way of life);
And I’ve just been made aware that the Ukraine does have a significant population of communists;

And imho that adds another ingredient to the soup (i.e. with all this conspiracy talk of Russians staging violent protesters and snipers and Russians saying it’s vice versa);

Imho there are no greater conspirators than communists …
picture them acting as neo-nazis with maces and axes.

rex

 

[pepipop]

I’m not making moral comparisons between NATO (as it was during the existence of the former Soviet Union) and the Warsaw Pact, but the world has changed a great deal in that time.

                                      I think a good hypothetical scenario would be to imagine Russian military bases being built in Cuba (again) Bermuda, the Bahamas, Panama, Venezuela, etc AND then, an American friendly government in Mexico get's forced out by large violent riots in the capital, where anti-government protesters wave hundreds of Russian flags, and Russian politicians turn up in the midst of the riots to encourage those taking part, even making statements regarding which future leaders would be acceptable to Russia. add to that, several leaders of the protests make no secret of there plans to align with Russia and even allow military bases in there country then picture some of the ringleaders of the riots openly boasting that "they've killed Americans before and are ready to do it again". If you can picture all that, then you can see what Russia is dealing with here.

Precisely, and that’s the reason why Putin took the ‘strange’ course of action that he did. If he’d stayed out of the whole scenario, or went to ‘diplomatic’ meetings, until the new government was elected, he would have lost a lot of ground possibly facing a total anti-Russian government with NATO sitting in his back yard. Putin’s actions were in lieu of the above scenario and the western inferences with the Ukrainian government’s demise. He took a stance that gave the West a message - aside from the fact Crimea will be happier with Russia, than being ruled by a ‘who-knows-what-it’ll-be’ government from Ukraine.

 

[josie_L]

Term “Mother Russia” as described by Wikipedia:

Mother Russia (Russian: Россия-Матушка, transliterated as Rossiya-Matushka) is a national personification of Russia, appearing in patriotic posters, statues etc. The usage of the term “mother” in reference to a nation or culture symbolizes the “spirit of collectivity”.[1] In the Soviet period, the term Mother Motherland (Родина-Мать, Rodina-Mat) was preferred, as representing the multi-ethnic Soviet Union; still, there is a clear similarity between the pre-1917 Mother Russia and the Soviet figure, especially as depicted during and in the aftermath of the Eastern Front of World War II.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Russia

 

[gilliam]

• Ukraine depends on Russian gas. Cutting the flow would be slicing off their head to spite their face. Russia would still be able to ship gas via Belarus and Turkey.

That is true now. Could change in the long run though if Ukraine isn’t annexed by Russia

If Ukraine is part of Russia, then there is no buffer. He’s toe-to-toe with NATO. Like any other world leader, he’d rather have friendly countries on his borders as opposed to potential enemies.

Yep, and the ex-Soviet states are worried about that.

• Can you give a source for these plans?

“We suggest a powerful supranational association capable of becoming one of the poles in the modern world,” wrote Putin in the 2011 op-ed in which he first described his vision.

And then there’s this: At the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Romania, Vladimir Putin told a surprised George W. Bush, “You have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country. Part of its territory is in Eastern Europe and the greater part was given to us.” cnn.com/2014/03/03/opinion/stent-putin-ukraine-russia-endgame/

And Crimea has historically not been part of the Ukraine

I think both are true depending on when you looked at the map

He’s already done that. Taking the Ukraine proper would only invite open conflict.

Which whom?

 

[Seamus_L]

Russia is claiming it downed a US drone over Crimea washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/14/russia-claims-have-downed-us-drone-over-crimea-reg/

 

[GaryTaylor]

buzzfeed.com/carlomunoz/pentagon-official-denies-us-drone-was-downed-over-crimea

WASHINGTON — A senior Pentagon official has denied Russian media reports that a U.S. intelligence drone has been intercepted while flying surveillance missions over Crimea

 

[pepipop]

Mmm… the EU must have had a change of heart as the Svoboda party now play a key role in the new interim government, controlling three government ministries and the prosecutor-general’s office.

europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

European Parliament resolution of 13 December 2012 on the situation in Ukraine 2012/2889(RSP))

8. Is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party;

 

[NorthTexan88]

I know I’m coming in late in the game. But when/if Russia takes Crimea, what are the odds that other places will be next?

 

[Miserissima]

I know I’m coming in late in the game. But when/if Russia takes Crimea, what are the odds that other places will be next?

Only where there is:

a. demonstrated economic or military interest and

b. there are “ethnic” folks who need to be " protected," especially when a applies.