Ukraine (cont.)

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TaurusRex said:
And I’ve just been made aware that the Ukraine does have a significant population of communists;
Imho there are no greater conspirators than communists …
picture them acting as neo-nazis with maces and axes.
rex
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rex, with all due respect you have just been made aware now that there is a communist party in Ukraine? Are you aware that Russia has a thriving Communist Party? Let me tell you, the communist party in Ukraine is thoroughly pro-Russian and was allied with ex-President Yanukovych’s thuggish Regions Party. It is dead set against the current government of Ukraine led by moderate democrat Yatseniuk.

And while we are at your point about there not being any greater conspirators than communists I point out to you the existence of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation headed by Gennady Zyuganov, an unrepentant communist whose party got 19% of the votes to Russia’s Duma, 92 seats. The leader of Russia’s Communist Party Zyuganov received 17% of the popular vote for President of Russia in Russia’s last election. The leader of Ukraine’s Communist Party Symonenko in Ukraine’s vote for President only received 3.5% of the votes in Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation

In other words, if you are really troubled by communism, then you need to look at Russia. The second largest party in Russia’s Parliament is the Russian Communist Party. In Ukraine’s Parliament, the Ukrainian Communist Party is the smallest party and barely made the electoral cut-off for parties. And Vladimir Putin cooperates with the Communist Party of Russia, no problems.

The, ahem, current leader of Crimea appointed by force, Aksyonov, flew to Russia and was warmly welcomed by Russian’s Communist leader Zyuganov and well as Russia’s radical nationalist leader Zhirinovsky and received their full support, as well as Putin’s.

And if you are concerned with the communist threat, then you should be concerned by Russia’s President Vladimir Putin comparing the mausoluem of the first Communist Leader Lenin to the relics of Christian saints, as well as Putin’s whitewashing of Stalin’s communist crimes in textbooks for Russian schoolchildren, as well as Putin’s hero worshipping of Soviet communist secret police leaders Dzerzhinsky and Andropov. Putin does not condemn these communists but praises them. Putin worked hand in glove with the East German communist secret police the Stasi while a KGB agent in Dresden.

Putin once compared working for the communist KGB to being akin to being a reporter, during an interview with Larry King. Putin never once condemned the communist KGB but still glorifies it.

In my opinion, if one is suspicious of communism, then look at how Vladimir Putin’s world view was conditioned by working for the communist secret police.
 
KyivAndrew said:
rex, with all due respect you have just been made aware now that there is a communist party in Ukraine? Are you aware that Russia has a thriving Communist Party? Let me tell you, the communist party in Ukraine is thoroughly pro-Russian and was allied with ex-President Yanukovych’s thuggish Regions Party. It is dead set against the current government of Ukraine led by moderate democrat Yatseniuk.
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Well KyivAndrew,
you left out my adjective “significant”;
But yes, I’ll agree that a large communist element may be a “fly in the ointment” and I really do believe they can be responsible for a lot of the unclaimed mischief;

However, my feeling about Putin is that he’s got a big job and part of that job is keeping everyone happy;
So if he’s got a big communist party, I’ll admit he’s got a big problem on his hands;
But I tend to agree with Monkey that Putin’s doing the best he can for Russia and its people.

Here’s hoping the problems between Russia and Ukraine can be solved peacefully.

rex
 
As for the violence in cities like Kharkiv and Donetsk between so-called pro-Russian protestors and pro-Ukrainian, it bears mentioning as I did about a week ago that busloads of Russian “volunteers”, citizens of Russia, were being shipped in from neighboring Russian provinces into Ukraine for pro-Russian protests. I think some 2,000 drove into Donetsk some days back when violence raged and Russian flags were hung from the city hall.

As Julia Ioffe pointed out sometime back, these cities were all peaceful, even after the Maidan Revolution. Violence did not escalate there until Putin sent in his troops into Crimea and set upon destabilizing the situation in Eastern Ukraine. Ukrainians from these Eastern Ukrainian areas are asking that the borders with Russia be secured so busloads of provocateurs from Russia not come in.

The Referendum in Crimea will be a joke and I’m disappointed that John Kerry said the US will wait for the results before further steps. What results? The fix is in. Elections are not free in Russia itself, never mind in Crimea where thousands of Russian army/mercenaries with RPGs and heavy weaponry with Russian license plates on their armoured vehicles but no insignia control Crimea.

The Referendum basically has only two pro-Russian options, and no option to say NO to the referendum question, that is to say No, Crimea should remain in Ukraine. Ukrainians, Tatars, and some Russians won’t even bother voting and even if they did, and the vote came out not positively, there is no doubt the results would be falsified in my opinion. Putin will be the judge and he has already broken the truth about his troops in Crimea being merely self-defense units. And one expects his allies to tell the truth about elections results? Why does one think Putin prevented unarmed OSCE observers from witnessing the vote in Crimea. Why does one think the pro-Russian militia and army in Crimea continually try to shut off cameras filming them.

One other thing to mention: it is not so much a fear of NATO that haunts Putin, but that Ukraine may, if left unfettered, develop into a real democratic state with low corruption and the rule of law. Putin does not want such a neighbour on his borders because it may give his own subjects ideas about democracy, freedom of the press, etc.

A last thing disconcerting about this is Putin’s apparent defense that he’s defending Russians in Ukraine or the Russian language. Anybody whose been to Ukraine knows how dominating the Russian language is there. And Russian-speaking Ukrainian does not equal Russian, as well as being a Russian ethnic in Ukraine does not equal being pro-Putin. If anything Putin’s militaristic jingoism has ironically united Western and Eastern Ukrainians. It’s interesting Putin never mentions about how the Ukrainian language and culture are discriminated against in Russia. Ukrainians make up the third largest ethnic group in the Russian federation. They have tremendous difficulties even setting up Ukrainians schools, or Ukrainian language papers in Russia. The Ukrainian Cultural Center in Moscow was simply shut down. Ukrainian Catholics can’t even practice their faith freely and put up churches in Russia.

But there is no outcry about the treatment of ethnic Ukrainians in Russia, who largely ended up there as deportees under Stalin, while the ethnic Russian population boomed in Ukraine through Stalin’s forced migration of ethnic Russians into Ukraine after the Ukrainian ethnic population was decimated by Stalin in the 1930s. This story is barely told.
 
TaurusRex said:
Here’s hoping the problems between Russia and Ukraine can be solved peacefully.

rex
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Here, here, rex, but I’m rather pretty pessimistic now, and completely suspicious of Putin. Unlike some on here, I am not a Putin fan in the least. He is turning Russia into his own autocratic state with a controlled press, severe corruption in the economic and legal spheres, and no checks at all on his powers.

Ukraine’s current Prime Minister elected by Ukraine’s Parliament (even by members of Yanukovych’s Regions Party) has asked for direct talks with Moscow. Putin refuses. How can just picking up the phone not help? Yatseniuk is not a monster. If Putin has real concerns, he can answer Yatseniuk’s phone call. If it saves thousand of lives potentially and prevents war in the heart of Europe, then there should be talk. The Ukrainians are open for talk, right away, with Moscow. Putin isn’t.
 
KyivAndrew said:
Here, here, rex, but I’m rather pretty pessimistic now, and completely suspicious of Putin. Unlike some on here, I am not a Putin fan in the least. He is turning Russia into his own autocratic state with a controlled press, severe corruption in the economic and legal spheres, and no checks at all on his powers.

Ukraine’s current Prime Minister elected by Ukraine’s Parliament (even by members of Yanukovych’s Regions Party) has asked for direct talks with Moscow. Putin refuses. How can just picking up the phone not help? Yatseniuk is not a monster. If Putin has real concerns, he can answer Yatseniuk’s phone call. If it saves thousand of lives potentially and prevents war in the heart of Europe, then there should be talk. The Ukrainians are open for talk, right away, with Moscow. Putin isn’t.
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If a pro-West leader had been ousted in a coup and replaced with a pro-Russian one who wanted to talk to Obama he would refuse.

America does things one way and expects the world to do it the other way.

Whether Yatseniuk is a nice man or not doesn’t matter, he is in charge in the same way as Ayatollah Khomeini, a coup.
 
Nelka said:
If a pro-West leader had been ousted in a coup and replaced with a pro-Russian one who wanted to talk to Obama he would refuse.

America does things one way and expects the world to do it the other way.

Whether Yatseniuk is a nice man or not doesn’t matter, he is in charge in the same way as Ayatollah Khomeini, a coup.
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In addition to the fact, that the EU warned other political parties in Ukraine in 2012, not to associate with Neo-nazi political groups as it goes against EU fundamental values. Whoops - the new government must be an exception to their rule. :rolleyes:

European Parliament resolution of 13 December 2012 on the situation in Ukraine 2012/2889(RSP))

*8. Is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party;
*
 
pepipop said:
In addition to the fact, that the EU warned other political parties in Ukraine in 2012, not to associate with Neo-nazi political groups as it goes against EU fundamental values. Whoops - the new government must be an exception to their rule. :rolleyes:

European Parliament resolution of 13 December 2012 on the situation in Ukraine 2012/2889(RSP))

*8. Is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party;
*
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The UPA had a great track record of fighting with Soviet NKVD/KGB/officials, German Army and SS divisions (when it suited them or to protect their people from German atrocities - which is fair), Polish Home Army and related units, Soviet partisans and Polish women and children - of whom they butchered tens of thousands. They may also have been involved with at least one Jewish massacre but by the large they did not target Jews.

Are these organisations building on that? Perhaps. Would Stepan Bandera be the new Ukrainian hero - again - who knows.
 
Seamus_L said:
Overnight shootings in Kharkiv, 2 dead independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-two-dead-in-kharkiv-shootout-ahead-of-crimea-referendum-9194291.html
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Ukrainian authorities accuse Russia of provoking the gunfight in Kharkiv:
mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2E07920140315?irpc=932
“Hired provocateurs from a neighboring country are staging professional provocations,” [interior minister] Avakov said. He accused allies of ousted, Moscow-backed president Viktor Yanukovich of financing unrest in eastern Ukraine, aided by “extremist Russian forces”.
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He issued an appeal on Facebook to Ukrainians: “Don’t let them manipulate you! Stop this hysteria … This isn’t a game of toy soldiers - this is a real conflict and people’s real lives.”
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(Kharkiv is where the “tourists” from Moscow put the Russian flag on top of a government building a week or two back… There are a lot of Russian citizens who have crossed the border into Ukraine in the last few weeks and many Ukrainians regardless of ethnicity believe the borders should be sealed to keep out Russians who might try to provoke violence.)

Edited to add quote from the article.
 
pepipop said:
Unfortunately, it will most likely continue. An overthrown government, for whatever the reasons, will always cause frictions within the community.
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Agreed. Both sides have far-right agitators in residence. Some are there for ideology, some are there for payroll.
 
Large protests against Russia’s actions in Crimea today in Moscow. Some estimates as high as 50.000. Ukrainian flags, Russian flags, EU flags, and Hammer and Sickle flags on the there side too.
 
AnthonyJ said:
Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest abducted in Crimea:

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/03/15/ukrainian_greek_catholic_priest_abducted_in_crimea/en1-781855

Prayers for his safety and speedy release!
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(Vatican Radio) In a serious escalation of tension in Crimea, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest was kidnapped on Saturday.
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Sources in Ukraine say Father Mykola Kvych, a pastor and a Ukrainian military chaplain, was abducted by pro-Russian forces after celebrating the liturgy. Reports Saturday evening suggest Father Kvych may have been released, but those reports have not yet been confirmed.
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“Every abduction is a terrible event for everybody involved,” said Bishop Borys Gudziak, the Eparch of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Eparchy. “It’s a gross violation of human rights and God-given human dignity.” He expressed his grave concern about the repercussions of the kidnapping of Father Kvych.
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**Earlier this month, Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests received oral and written threats warning them to leave Crimea. Many priests, however, have chosen to remain with their people. **
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“Our priests and bishops have been very close to the people,” said Bishop Borys. “We’ve been inspired by the example of Our Lord [Who] went a long distance from fellowship with the Father to incarnate Himself and be in our reality.”
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He said they have also been inspired by the words of Pope Francis “who said a pastor needs to have the smell of his sheep. And our pastors have been with the people, and they’re today with the people enduring this occupation in the Crimea.”
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Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/03/15/ukrainian_greek_catholic_priest_abducted_in_crimea/en1-781855
of the Vatican Radio website
 
“Russian troops invade Kherson Oblast, Ukrainians declare right to fight back”

kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-troops-invade-kherson-oblast-ukrainians-declare-right-to-fight-back-339509.html
Several Russian military helicopters landed on March 15 in southern Kherson Oblast near Kremlin-occupied Crimea, bringing dozens of commandoes and exacerbating the already high tension between the two countries.
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…
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Four helicopters landed near Strilkove village on the north of Arabat Spit, narrow piece of land on the south of Kherson region, bringing 60 commandos, State Border Service reported. “The border guards together with soldiers (about 20 people) had to move back from the cross road leading to Henichesk (city nearby) and had to take up defense,” it said in the report.
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At about 3:30 p.m., six more helicopters landed there, bringing 60 more commandos. Several military vehicles were riding along the Arabat Spit at the same time.
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