Ukraine (cont.)

[Seamus_L]

Right Sector claim to have Jewish members haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.580596 So does that somehow mean they’re not a bunch of hooligans ?

 

[josie_L]

Right Sector claim to have Jewish members haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.580596 So does that somehow mean they’re not a bunch of hooligans ?

Are they Jewish neo-Nazis? I don’t think so.

 

[Tomdstone]

Young Ukrainian woman talks about what is happening in her country:
youtube.com/watch?v=XKInBwa-FUE

 

[KyivAndrew]

Tough words from Max Hastings:

Putin thinks the West is as weak as jelly.

The West’s outrage at Russia’s illegal annexation of the Crimea found full expression at Monday’s meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.
It was announced that 21 Russian and Crimean politicians and officials face a travel ban and asset freeze, a sanction matched by America. Thus, a tiny number of Moscow’s elite and their puppets find their Harrods cards suspended.
And in case you are wondering, it is as likely that President Vladimir Putin’s £25billion personal fortune will be discovered sitting in a current account at the Kensington branch of NatWest as that Sevastapol will win the 2014 Holiday Destination of the Year prize.
Putin’s act of armed aggression, with threats of more to come, relies on exactly the same arguments that Hitler deployed to justify his 1938-39 lunges into Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Read more: dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2583970/Putin-thinks-West-weak-jelly-And-tragedy-hes-right.html#ixzz2wTH2SLRs

It also bears mentioning in all this that the first fatality in Russia’s annexation of Crimea was a Ukrainian officer killed as his base was stormed by pro-Russian forces, in spite of the fact that the Kremlin had agreed a truce with Ukraine’s military in Crimea for this week. The Kremlin’s word is quickly shown to be untrue with its actions on the ground.

Putin should also be congratulated on his “victory” in Crimea’s referendum (two choices, yes and yes) conducted at the barrel of Russian guns. 123% of Sevastopol’s residents voted to join Russia. Outstanding.

 

[josie_L]

Tough words from Max Hastings:

Putin thinks the West is as weak as jelly.

The West’s outrage at Russia’s illegal annexation of the Crimea found full expression at Monday’s meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.
It was announced that 21 Russian and Crimean politicians and officials face a travel ban and asset freeze, a sanction matched by America. Thus, a tiny number of Moscow’s elite and their puppets find their Harrods cards suspended.
And in case you are wondering, it is as likely that President Vladimir Putin’s £25billion personal fortune will be discovered sitting in a current account at the Kensington branch of NatWest as that Sevastapol will win the 2014 Holiday Destination of the Year prize.
Putin’s act of armed aggression, with threats of more to come, relies on exactly the same arguments that Hitler deployed to justify his 1938-39 lunges into Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Read more: dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2583970/Putin-thinks-West-weak-jelly-And-tragedy-hes-right.html#ixzz2wTH2SLRs

It also bears mentioning in all this that the first fatality in Russia’s annexation of Crimea was a Ukrainian officer killed as his base was stormed by pro-Russian forces, in spite of the fact that the Kremlin had agreed a truce with Ukraine’s military in Crimea for this week. The Kremlin’s word is quickly shown to be untrue with its actions on the ground.

Putin should also be congratulated on his “victory” in Crimea’s referendum (two choices, yes and yes) conducted at the barrel of Russian guns. 123% of Sevastopol’s residents voted to join Russia. Outstanding.

Where did you get that??

 

[KyivAndrew]

Where did you get that??

Sorry, josie, from the reputable, pro-democratic and probably the most popular internet newspaper in Ukraine: “Ukrayinska Pravda” which studied the statistics for Sevastopol. Ukrayinska Pravda is for freedom of the press in Ukraine and it does print articles critical, if need be, of all parties in Ukraine from Svoboda to Yanukovych’s Regions party and its communist party ally and all in between. It also accepts blog opinions from all of Ukraine’s political spectrum, even giving Yanukovych’s party’s spokespersons room to make their case. Former Presidents of Ukraine and cabinet ministers publish their opinion pieces or interviews here too.

Here is the story on the 123% of Sevastopol voting for Russia. It is in Ukrainian, but as it is late now, if you want, I can try to translate it tomorrow.
pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/17/7019270/

 

[TEPO]

123% is quite a bit. But I won’t be convinced until it surpasses 100,000%. then we’ll know its fair.

 

[Miserissima]

123% is quite a bit. But I won’t be convinced until it surpasses 100,000%. then we’ll know its fair.

How would one say ‘Tammany’ in Ukrainian?

 

[Nelka]

**When Putin reminded the world Bush-era diplomacy was no way to behave in a civilized world: **

“They act as they please: here and there, they use force against sovereign states, building coalitions based on the principle ‘If you are not with us, you are against us.’ To make this aggression look legitimate, they force the necessary resolutions from international organizations, and if for some reason this does not work, they simply ignore the UN Security Council and the UN overall.”

**And, of course, when Putin reminded his critics that everyone has their breaking point: **

“If you press the spring too hard, it will snap back. You must always remember this!”

 

[Vouthon]

The BBC has here the text of Putin’s speech with commentary by one of their journalists:

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26652058

This is an incredible display of expansionist ethnic nationalism. I am frankly shocked to find how similar it is to Hitler’s worldview. Anyone who has even a basic knowledge of Nazi foreign policy between 1933-1939 or learned about it in school, will recognize the hallmarks immediately.

Its simply astonishing to see this happening in the 21st century.

Putin says:

Back then, it was impossible to imagine that Ukraine and Russia may split up and become two separate states. However, this has happened.

Unfortunately, what seemed impossible became a reality. The USSR fell apart. Things developed so swiftly that few people realised how truly dramatic those events and their consequences would be. Many people both in Russia and in Ukraine, as well as in other republics hoped that the Commonwealth of Independent States that was created at the time would become the new common form of statehood. They were told that there would be a single currency, a single economic space, joint armed forces; however, all this remained empty promises, while the big country was gone. It was only when Crimea ended up as part of a different country that Russia realised that it was not simply robbed, it was plundered…At the same time, we have to admit that by launching the sovereignty parade Russia itself aided in the collapse of the Soviet Union. And as this collapse was legalised, everyone forgot about Crimea and Sevastopol - the main base of the Black Sea Fleet. Millions of people went to bed in one country and awoke in different ones, overnight becoming ethnic minorities in former Union republics, while the Russian nation became one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group in the world to be divided by borders.

Bridget Kendall comments:

Bridget Kendall: Powerful emotive words from Mr Putin to back up his claim that in returning Crimea to Russia he is correcting not just a historical injustice, but an outrage. But he does not stop with Crimea: he implies that other parts of Ukraine - particularly the Russian speaking south-east - should really be Russian too, castigating the Bolsheviks who handed these lands to Ukraine.

A veiled reminder for other former Soviet republics with Russian-speaking minorities to send a message that, as in Ukraine, Mr Putin views Russian compatriots there as part of a single Russian nation - and therefore conceivably might make moves to ensure their protection too, if he felt they needed it. The most controversial cases are the rebellious Russian speaking enclave of Trans-Dniester in Moldova (which this week also asked to join Russia) and the still unresolved issue of Russian speakers in the Baltics who for more than 20 years have remained technically stateless because they refuse to take language lessons to be eligible for local passports. But Mr Putin does not mention them explicitly.

So Putin is blaming Ukraine and other Soviet republics for the Bolsheviks flooding these areas with Russians or placing Russian areas in the republics so as to make sure they would be under Russian domination? Is that not the equivalent of blaming an abused wife for her husband assaulting her?

When even one of the world’s top historians, the British expert on WWII Max Hastings can say that “Putin’s act of armed aggression, with threats of more to come, relies on exactly the same arguments that Hitler deployed to justify his 1938-39 lunges into Czechoslovakia and Poland”, the comparisons are becoming near irrefutable.

The Western world has a serious problem on its hands.

 

[pepipop]

Nelka:
*Quote:
When Putin reminded the world Bush-era diplomacy was no way to behave in a civilized world:

“They act as they please: here and there, they use force against sovereign states, building coalitions based on the principle ‘If you are not with us, you are against us.’ To make this aggression look legitimate, they force the necessary resolutions from international organizations, and if for some reason this does not work, they simply ignore the UN Security Council and the UN overall.”

And, of course, when Putin reminded his critics that everyone has their breaking point:

“If you press the spring too hard, it will snap back. You must always remember this!”*

Poking bears with sticks - not recommended.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not hard to see the agenda. Its rationalized with the “America nuked” people thinking, so anything they do pales in comparison.

Worried over Russian’s new advances, Poland and Latvia agreed recently to begin coordinating security activities more closely. And on Tuesday, Estonian President Toomas Ilves spoke of the end of what he described as a 20-year NATO philosophy of “out of the area or out of business” that assumed Europe no longer faced external threats.

“That unfortunately has turned out, with the actions we’ve seen against Ukraine, no longer to apply,” Ilves said after a meeting in Warsaw with Vice President Joe Biden.

foxnews.com/us/2014/03/20/could-new-russian-threat-in-eastern-europe-divert-nato-attention-away-from/

Germany’s Cabinet approved EU plans for closer political cooperation with Ukraine, a government source said, clearing the way for Chancellor Angela Merkel to sign part of a so-called association agreement at an EU summit later this week.

reuters.com/article/2014/03/20/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA2I0TR20140320

 

[pepipop]

Not hard to see the agenda. Its rationalized with the “America nuked” people thinking, so anything they do pales in comparison.

Worried over Russian’s new advances, Poland and Latvia agreed recently to begin coordinating security activities more closely. And on Tuesday, Estonian President Toomas Ilves spoke of the end of what he described as a 20-year NATO philosophy of “out of the area or out of business” that assumed Europe no longer faced external threats.

“That unfortunately has turned out, with the actions we’ve seen against Ukraine, no longer to apply,” Ilves said after a meeting in Warsaw with Vice President Joe Biden.

foxnews.com/us/2014/03/20/could-new-russian-threat-in-eastern-europe-divert-nato-attention-away-from/

Germany’s Cabinet approved EU plans for closer political cooperation with Ukraine, a government source said, clearing the way for Chancellor Angela Merkel to sign part of a so-called association agreement at an EU summit later this week.

reuters.com/article/2014/03/20/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA2I0TR20140320

Let’s wait and see, if Russia do actually advance on any other territory.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Let’s wait and see, if Russia do actually advance on any other territory.

One is reminded of the Russian short story about the crocodile under the table at a party. Now and then it would devour a guest, but the rest of the guests ignored it and did nothing because, after all, it was somebody else who was last devoured.

It was precisely because the west waited too long that Russia has been able to advance its imperialist ambitions into Ukraine at all. The west will now have to be far more clever than it had to be previously in resisting further Russian aggression, and it will be far more difficult.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The BBC has here the text of Putin’s speech with commentary by one of their journalists:

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26652058

This is an incredible display of expansionist ethnic nationalism. I am frankly shocked to find how similar it is to Hitler’s worldview. Anyone who has even a basic knowledge of Nazi foreign policy between 1933-1939 or learned about it in school, will recognize the hallmarks immediately.

Its simply astonishing to see this happening in the 21st century.

Putin says:

Bridget Kendall comments:



So Putin is blaming Ukraine and other Soviet republics for the Bolsheviks flooding these areas with Russians or placing Russian areas in the republics so as to make sure they would be under Russian domination? Is that not the equivalent of blaming an abused wife for her husband assaulting her?

When even one of the world’s top historians, the British expert on WWII Max Hastings can say that “Putin’s act of armed aggression, with threats of more to come, relies on exactly the same arguments that Hitler deployed to justify his 1938-39 lunges into Czechoslovakia and Poland”, the comparisons are becoming near irrefutable.

The Western world has a serious problem on its hands.

The west’s most serious present problem is the west itself. Europe occasionally forgets that its truly remarkable peace and prosperity have a cost. The U.S. government is trying to forget, of course.

Russia will have it both ways. It is in the process of “ethnically cleansing” Crimea, but the media elites ignore it. But if Ukraine attempted to concentrate its loyal Ukrainian population into the west, it would be condemned and probably invaded for “ethnic cleansing”.

Political correctness is an exceedingly expensive societal luxury.

 

[pepipop]

One is reminded of the Russian short story about the crocodile under the table at a party. Now and then it would devour a guest, but the rest of the guests ignored it and did nothing because, after all, it was somebody else who was last devoured.

It was precisely because the west waited too long that Russia has been able to advance its imperialist ambitions into Ukraine at all. The west will now have to be far more clever than it had to be previously in resisting further Russian aggression, and it will be far more difficult.

The ‘West’ didn’t wait too long, they stirred it all up in the first place but dropped the ball. Russia offered Ukraine 15 billion but were told to wait by their international partners, in relation to agreement with the IMF, then the EU countered Russia’s offer that subsequently decreased to 700 million. All this started the trouble, as Yanukovich went back to the higher lender, then rioting and eventual overthrowing of the Ukraine government.

I fully empathise and sympathise with the Ukrainians right now, as their country is in civil turmoil - which I fully understand. Even, if 60% recognise the current government, there’ll be 40% that don’t and that’s when unrest will spread and cause fractions. The fact their government was overturned is bad enough news in itself, as it causes widespread anxiety, tension and fear - aside and not least being all the loved ones that were killed in the rioting.

They need to move the election date forward, at least it would concentrate everyone’s mind toward a solution and would ease the tension.

I am not omitting the Russia/Crimea situation from all of this, as this will have added further to the unrest, especially among certain fractions. As to whether Crimea should have declared independence and asked to be part of Russia (or the flip version of the story) - is a totally separate issue.
.
There has been recent news of a bank robbery occurring, vandalising and overtaking of a large factory, and shooting of a mayor in a street in Ukraine (all caught on CCTV).

 

[Ridgerunner]

The ‘West’ didn’t wait too long, they stirred it all up in the first place ).

It amazes me how sometimes people think everything another people does is somehow the consequence of the designs of some other nation, particularly the U.S. Seems to me that demeans, in this case, the Ukrainians themselves, who are perfectly capable of having their own reasons not to want to be dominated or ruled by Russia.

There are people living today in Ukraine (the overwhelming majority of actual Ukrainians) whose parents or grandparents lived through the “Terror Famine”, the deportations and the other genocidal horrors visited on them by the Russians. After all, if they welcomed the Germans with bread and salt because of all they had suffered at the hands of Russia, and if fifty-mile-long trains of Ukrainians followed the retreating German armies out of Ukraine ahead of the Soviets, how could a people forget the genocide that impelled them to reject so vehemently domination by Russia?

If, indeed, some western operatives encouraged that revulsion, it does not mean the revulsion was somehow artificial, any more than the present concerns of the Balts and Poles about Russian revanchism is artificial. And what, after all, were westerners supposed to encourage Ukrainians to do, bow their necks to Russia’s pleasure again?

To assume that Ukrainians are incapable of knowing their own minds about Russian domination, and only reject it because westerners say they should, one has to further assume that somehow westerners have persuaded Tatars and Ukrainians to flee their homes in Crimea as they are now doing; that westerners have persuaded Catholic leaders to protest their concerns about threats to their people and their faith.

It doesn’t really work. It’s time to acknowledge that Ukrainians really don’t want to be dominated by Russia; that Russia intends to dominate or outright annex them, and that Russian aggression should be opposed by whatever means the west and those directly threatened can muster short of inviting the kind of retribution Russia has visited on people like the Chechens.

 

[Seamus_L]

If Russia had taken military action against NATO when they bombed Serbia, I think it would have put an end to Western expansion eastwards.

 

[pepipop]

It amazes me how sometimes people think everything another people does is somehow the consequence of the designs of some other nation, particularly the U.S. Seems to me that demeans, in this case, the Ukrainians themselves, who are perfectly capable of having their own reasons not to want to be dominated or ruled by Russia.

There are people living today in Ukraine (the overwhelming majority of actual Ukrainians) whose parents or grandparents lived through the “Terror Famine”, the deportations and the other genocidal horrors visited on them by the Russians. After all, if they welcomed the Germans with bread and salt because of all they had suffered at the hands of Russia, and if fifty-mile-long trains of Ukrainians followed the retreating German armies out of Ukraine ahead of the Soviets, how could a people forget the genocide that impelled them to reject so vehemently domination by Russia?

If, indeed, some western operatives encouraged that revulsion, it does not mean the revulsion was somehow artificial, any more than the present concerns of the Balts and Poles about Russian revanchism is artificial. And what, after all, were westerners supposed to encourage Ukrainians to do, bow their necks to Russia’s pleasure again?

To assume that Ukrainians are incapable of knowing their own minds about Russian domination, and only reject it because westerners say they should, one has to further assume that somehow westerners have persuaded Tatars and Ukrainians to flee their homes in Crimea as they are now doing; that westerners have persuaded Catholic leaders to protest their concerns about threats to their people and their faith.

It doesn’t really work. It’s time to acknowledge that Ukrainians really don’t want to be dominated by Russia; that Russia intends to dominate or outright annex them, and that Russian aggression should be opposed by whatever means the west and those directly threatened can muster short of inviting the kind of retribution Russia has visited on people like the Chechens.

My post had nothing to do with Ukraine being dominated by Russia - it was in relation to on-going civil unrest in Ukraine. Ukraine is broke and needs funding to survive, which was at the crux of all the problems that subsequently occurred, the overturned government, riots, killings, etc.

The government elections moved forward would help stabilise the situation and money needs to start to flow into the country, ASAP.

businessweek.com/news/2014-03-19/eu-wants-to-move-quickly-on-ukraine-aid-money-rehn-says

*The European Union wants to move fast on a 1.6 billion-euro ($2.2 billion) aid plan for Ukraine so that money can start flowing to the government in Kiev, said EU Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn.

The EU can start sending payments “immediately” after Ukraine reaches a deal with the International Monetary Fund on a companion package that could be about 13 billion to 14 billion euros, Rehn said in an interview in Brussels yesterday. A payment of about 100 million euros would be followed by 500 million euros “in the very short term,” he said.

“Everybody is aware that there is an emergency situation not only in the security situation but al*so in the economic situation, and therefore there is a need to move quickly,” Rehn said.

 

[pepipop]

If Russia had taken military action against NATO when they bombed Serbia, I think it would have put an end to Western expansion eastwards.

As I noted one poster state, ‘How far across does the North Atlantic, actually reach?’