Ukraine (cont.)

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hrw.org/news/2014/04/03/dispatches-where-truth-behind-ukraine-s-maidan-sniper-attacks

*At the same news conference, the new SBU head accused Russia’s security services of involvement in killings of protesters, alleging that explosives and weapons to be used against protesters were delivered to Ukraine from Russia in January.

All in all, this is a very different picture from that painted by Russia. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently said that Russian authorities had evidence that Ukraine’s far-right groups could be behind the sniper attacks at Maidan.If true, this evidence should be shared with investigators.

Such discrepancies can be expected in thepolitically charged situation that Ukraine is currently facing. They also underscore the importance of an impartial and thorough investigation, including with the help of such intergovernmental organizations as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the United Nations, to make sure that vested political interests play no role in establishing the truth.*
 
Nelka said:
Why is it that America is allowed troops, ships, jets, bombers all over the world in every country but Russia isn’t allowed their own troops in their own country?
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On the most basic level, a very significant difference is that America has not annexed any of those places. Also, they’re there by consent, often by invitation.

Nobody is trying to prevent Russia from keeping their troops in their own country. Their neighbors wish they would. The problem arises when they keep their troops in somebody else’s country, like Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, and without consent.
 
pepipop said:
hrw.org/news/2014/04/03/dispatches-where-truth-behind-ukraine-s-maidan-sniper-attacks

*At the same news conference, the new SBU head accused Russia’s security services of involvement in killings of protesters, alleging that explosives and weapons to be used against protesters were delivered to Ukraine from Russia in January.

All in all, this is a very different picture from that painted by Russia. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently said that Russian authorities had evidence that Ukraine’s far-right groups could be behind the sniper attacks at Maidan.If true, this evidence should be shared with investigators.

Such discrepancies can be expected in thepolitically charged situation that Ukraine is currently facing. They also underscore the importance of an impartial and thorough investigation, including with the help of such intergovernmental organizations as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the United Nations, to make sure that vested political interests play no role in establishing the truth.*
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This all sooooo “Soviet Union”/KGB. If any Ukrainian dissented or was even suspected of dissent, he was labeled a “Banderist” and sent to the Gulag. If the KGB wanted to get rid of anybody, he was labeled a “fascist” and sent to the Lubyanka and/or the Gulag. Every non-criminal in the Gulag was called a “fascist”. Well, I don’t think Stalin ever got around to calling Trotsky or Bukharin “fascists” before he killed them, but satisfied himself with “left deviationist” in Trotsky’s case, and “right deviationist” in Bukharin’s case.

The KGB schooling taught Putin well. Western leftists learned to throw the label around too, but they didn’t get the full course of schooling. They did learn to sit around in coffee shops and boldly proclaim that others are “fascists” or “right wing”, but they didn’t get to the part where one kills all of them. That was, well, sort of an inconvenient truth that one didn’t share with the lightly educated.🙂
 
Ridgerunner said:
This all sooooo “Soviet Union”/KGB. If any Ukrainian dissented or was even suspected of dissent, he was labeled a “Banderist” and sent to the Gulag. If the KGB wanted to get rid of anybody, he was labeled a “fascist” and sent to the Lubyanka and/or the Gulag. Every non-criminal in the Gulag was called a “fascist”. Well, I don’t think Stalin ever got around to calling Trotsky or Bukharin “fascists” before he killed them, but satisfied himself with “left deviationist” in Trotsky’s case, and “right deviationist” in Bukharin’s case.

The KGB schooling taught Putin well. Western leftists learned to throw the label around too, but they didn’t get the full course of schooling. They did learn to sit around in coffee shops and boldly proclaim that others are “fascists” or “right wing”, but they didn’t get to the part where one kills all of them. That was, well, sort of an inconvenient truth that one didn’t share with the lightly educated.🙂
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I don’t know what all the above has to do with an open and neutral investigation into the killing of over 100 people, in Ukraine.

So, as an example, if I worked at a bank that £100k was stolen from and you and I were both accused of stealing it, you would accept the findings of the bank’s investigation where, as an employee, I also was an investigator - the findings being that you stole the money?
I would very much doubt it.

Hence an open, neutral, investigation with the UN and others, will not favour either side. If neither side is guilty, neither have anything to worry about.
 
Nelka said:
Why is it that America is allowed troops, ships, jets, bombers all over the world in every country but Russia isn’t allowed their own troops in their own country?
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Because Russia just annexed Crimea and because they are amassing tens of thousands of troops near the Ukrainian border. Do you need another invasion to prove that Russia is not acting very neighbourly towards the Ukraine?

P.S Just letting you know that Russia is believed to be involved in supporting the Venezuelan government.
 
pepipop said:
I don’t know what all the above has to do with an open and neutral investigation into the killing of over 100 people, in Ukraine.

So, as an example, if I worked at a bank that £100k was stolen from and you and I were both accused of stealing it, you would accept the findings of the bank’s investigation where, as an employee, I also was an investigator - the findings being that you stole the money?
I would very much doubt it.

Hence an open, neutral, investigation with the UN and others, will not favour either side. If neither side is guilty, neither have anything to worry about.
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So, one would have an international investigation of some sort into the operations of Russian secret operatives when we couldn’t have international observers for the Russian conducted “referendum” on Crimean secession?

There’s an idea. :rolleyes:

The UN is a poor investigative body in that it is anything but open or neutral in much of anything. It’s a political body.

But nobody needs the UN or any other investigative body to know that Russian soldiers moved into Crimea, surrounded Ukrainian military stationed there, conducted a referendum that had no place to say “no Russia”, and has now annexed the place.

What’s the point anyway, other than perhaps to give a poor rationale to conquest? Russia owns Crimea. Nothing will change that.
 
Ridgerunner said:
So, one would have an international investigation of some sort into the operations of Russian secret operatives when we couldn’t have international observers for the Russian conducted “referendum” on Crimean secession?

There’s an idea. :rolleyes:

The UN is a poor investigative body in that it is anything but open or neutral in much of anything. It’s a political body.

But nobody needs the UN or any other investigative body to know that Russian soldiers moved into Crimea, surrounded Ukrainian military stationed there, conducted a referendum that had no place to say “no Russia”, and has now annexed the place.

What’s the point anyway, other than perhaps to give a poor rationale to conquest? Russia owns Crimea. Nothing will change that.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, it has to do with the taking of over 100 human lives in Ukraine.

This has to be investigated properly, if for no other reason, on behalf of the loved ones of those killed and the Ukrainian population, generally. Everyone ‘knows’ what happened with the Russia/Crimea situation, it was played out live for all to see.

This was not and involved the killing of over 100 people.
 
pepipop said:
This has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, it has to do with the taking of over 100 human lives in Ukraine.

This has to be investigated properly, if for no other reason, on behalf of the loved ones of those killed and the Ukrainian population, generally. Everyone ‘knows’ what happened with the Russia/Crimea situation, it was played out live for all to see.

This was not and involved the killing of over 100 people.
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I agree the “investigation” by some political international body has nothing to do with Russia’s seizure and absorption of Crimea. So why do it instead of allowing the Ukrainian government to investigate concerning its own internal affairs? The only reason would be to give Putin an opportunity to claim he was protecting Crimean Russians against Ukrainian “fascists”. I assume he would want that opportunity, especially if Putin can control it for a bogus “show trial” Russia gained such fame for. No doubt Putin studied the techniques in KGB school.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I agree the “investigation” by some political international body has nothing to do with Russia’s seizure and absorption of Crimea. So why do it instead of allowing the Ukrainian government to investigate concerning its own internal affairs? The only reason would be to give Putin an opportunity to claim he was protecting Crimean Russians against Ukrainian “fascists”. I assume he would want that opportunity, especially if Putin can control it for a bogus “show trial” Russia gained such fame for. No doubt Putin studied the techniques in KGB school.
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Obviously, you have not assumed that it could be connected to the new government.

Because the ‘new government’ has placed the blame on the overthrown leader Yanukovich - who is also Ukrainian, and members of his party are still in government. It would be like the democrats blaming the republicans, or vice-versa, over a similar matter, with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the other political party or outside observers, particularly so, in view of the seriousness of the allegations.
 
pepipop said:
Obviously, you have not assumed that it could be connected to the new government.

Because the ‘new government’ has placed the blame on the overthrown leader Yanukovich - who is also Ukrainian, and members of his party are still in government. It would be like the democrats blaming the republicans, or vice-versa, over a similar matter, with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the other political party or outside observers, particularly so, in view of the seriousness of the allegations.
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Not the same. When, on the one hand, you have a former KGB agent, trained in the world’s best school of provocation, deception, and assassination, and on the other hand a bunch of people who were at the time in disarray, and when the assassinations had the earmarks of professional sniper shootings, and when that’s followed by seizure by a foreign power of part of the country where it occurred who uses the provocation as an excuse, it really isn’t the same thing as “democrats and republicans”. Apologists for Stalin used to say that sort of thing, and I don’t recommend it.
 
A collection of articles that might be of some interest…

"Russians Of Narva [Estonia] Not Seeking ‘Liberation’ "
rferl.org/content/russia-estonia-not-crimea/25321328.html

“As Russian Law Comes To Crimea, Local Tatars Brace For ‘Extremism’ Accusations”
rferl.org/content/law-crimea-tatars-extremism-ukraine-russian/25310657.html

“Ukrainians try to boycott all things Russian – services, music, goods, sex”
kyivpost.com/guide/about-kyiv/ukrainians-try-to-boycott-all-things-russian-services-music-goods-sex-342021.html

Business transport ties disrupted with Crimea
kyivpost.com/content/business/business-transport-ties-disrupted-with-crimea-342027.html

For soccer/football fans:

“Ukraine crisis: Dynamo Kiev refuse to play Spartak Moscow friendly”
bbc.com/sport/0/football/26889356

“Ukrainian Football Federation holds on to Crimean teams”
kyivpost.com/content/sport/ukrainian-football-federation-holds-on-to-crimean-teams-342143.html
 
Also wanted to add this link, which was posted separately below by the Catholic News bot:

For Metropolitan Hilarion, Ukraine crisis ended preparations for meeting between pope and patriarch
asianews.it/news-en/For-Metropolitan-Hilarion,-Ukraine-crisis-ended-preparations-for-meeting-between-pope-and-patriarch-30750.html

Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate says in the article that he believes the Ukrainian Greek Catholics have launched some sort of crusade against Orthodoxy. He doesn’t mention that Yanukovych had in January threatened to outlaw the UGCC, nor does he mention that the UGCC and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate have gotten along quite fine (the divide is with the Moscow Patriarchate because of politics), nor does he mention the recent persecution of Catholic priests in Crimea…
 
U.S. Response to Crimea Worries Japanese Leaders

mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/world/asia/us-response-to-crimea-worries-japanese-leaders.html?from=homepage
TOKYO — When President Bill Clinton signed a 1994 agreement promising to assure the territorial integrity of Ukraine if it gave up its nuclear weapons, there was little thought then of how that obscure diplomatic pact — called the Budapest Memorandum — might affect the long-running defense partnership between the United States and Japan.
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But now, as American officials have distanced themselves from the Budapest Memorandum in light of Russia’s takeover of Crimea, calling promises made in Budapest “nonbinding,” the United States is being forced at the same time to make reassurances in Asia. Japanese officials, a senior American military official said, “keep asking, ‘are you going to do the same thing to us when something happens?’ ”
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AnastasiaRomano said:
Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate says in the article that he believes the Ukrainian Greek Catholics have launched some sort of crusade against Orthodoxy. …
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The priest who had been arrested and then released in Crimea had been in possession of illegal body armor and had pictures and materials on Stepan Bandera in his house. As you know, Stepan Bandera is the hero of choice of the Svoboda Party. In a May 1941 meeting, the Bandera backed group, OUN-B, declared: ““Moskali (derogatory term for Russians), Poles, Jews are hostile to us must be exterminated…”
grahamwphillips.com/2013/04/14/stepan-bandera-nazi-loser/
tavernkeepers.com/stepan-bandera-the-liberator-of-the-ukraine/
As far as I know, Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian political figure and there is no requirement for Catholics to have pictures of him or for Catholics to believe that he was a hero of some sort. In other words, it appears that the priest was not questioned because he was a Greek Catholic, but because it appeared possible that he was a supporter of extreme Ukrainian nationalists.
 
Tomdstone said:
The priest who had been arrested and then released in Crimea had been in possession of illegal body armor and had pictures and materials on Stepan Bandera in his house. As you know, Stepan Bandera is the hero of choice of the Svoboda Party. In a May 1941 meeting, the Bandera backed group, OUN-B, declared: ““Moskali (derogatory term for Russians), Poles, Jews are hostile to us must be exterminated…”
grahamwphillips.com/2013/04/14/stepan-bandera-nazi-loser/
tavernkeepers.com/stepan-bandera-the-liberator-of-the-ukraine/
As far as I know, Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian political figure and there is no requirement for Catholics to have pictures of him or for Catholics to believe that he was a hero of some sort. In other words, it appears that the priest was not questioned because he was a Greek Catholic, but because it appeared possible that he was a supporter of extreme Ukrainian nationalists.
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What does this have to do with the claims that Patriarch Hilarion has made of the UGCC?

And quite frankly I don’t believe anything that comes out of Moscow, i.e., this could very well be a frame up, i.e., it fits into their modus operandi.
 
Needless to say I can’t speak Russian or Ukrainian, allegedly the descriptor below of the video is correct. Any Ukrainian/Russian speakers please say, if this is not the case.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o6AJ5qAvAMc

*A description of what we’re seeing is in order. Basically, it’s a meeting between Russian and Ukrainian border guard officers, as a result of the actions of a village council on the Ukrainian side of the border in Lugansk region.
What they did is as the result of a group decision - attempted to declare their village as part of the Russian Federation by moving the Russian-Ukrainian border delimiter posts from one end of the village to the opposite end.

The Russian and Ukrainian officers met in the presence of the villagers and listened to their complaints in an attempt to resolve the situation. Basically, the villagers are explaining that members of the newly-formed ‘national guard’ forces (a paramilitary made up mostly of Maidan participants) are being settled into their village and the surrounding area against the will of the locals - who regard them as enemies.
They are afraid that they will be repressed, or what not - and therefore want to go over to the Russian side, to ‘surrender’ to the Russians so to speak.*
 
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