Ukraine (cont.)

[josie_L]

*Yet inattention to Ukraine’s internal demons reflects a dangerous misreading of current events; the struggle between Russia and the West has been a catalyst, but not a cause. The protagonists in this conflict are subnational regions. The EU association process, and especially the protests, repression, and revolution that followed, activated very deep and long-standing divisions between them. Unless Kiev deals with its regions and installs a more legitimate, decentralized government, Ukraine will not be won by the East or the West. It will be torn apart.

Since the problem is an internal Ukrainian problem (and remains so, despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea, the presence of tens of thousands of Russian troops on the country’s borders, and the seizure of city administrations throughout eastern Ukraine by pro-Russian groups), the solution will also be Ukrainian. The country might not be able to fix its centuries-old divides, but it must finally craft institutions to accommodate them.

The most obvious way to do that is through some form of constitutional change. Call it what you want: decentralization, federalization, regionalization. The label makes little difference. Kiev needs to transfer some very substantial powers, including those over education, language, law, and taxation, to the regions. It also needs to make the officials who hold such powers democratically accountable to elected councils and governors. T*

foreignaffairs.com/articles/141182/keith-darden/how-to-save-ukraine

The Ukraine’s interim government is just that an interim government, i.e., the people be they Ukrainian or Russian speaking, pro EU or pro Russian, will have the chance to voice their opinions come May 25th, but the fact of the matter is that Putin IS destabilizing the situation in the Ukraine because he knows that he presently has the upper hand, i.e., once the new elected government takes power he won’t have the club of Nazism/fascism to discredit them with or scare the populace with (although he may very well concoct lies about the new government as well).

Russia is a major problem in this equation and to state otherwise is to underestimate its capabilities, i.e., Putin is playing a dangerous imperialist game that could put the whole world in danger.

 

[pepipop]

The Ukraine’s interim government is just that an interim government, i.e., the people be they Ukrainian or Russian speaking, pro EU or pro Russian, will have the chance to voice their opinions come May 25th, but the fact of the matter is that Putin IS destabilizing the situation in the Ukraine because he knows that he presently has the upper hand, i.e., once the new elected government takes power he won’t have the club of Nazism/fascism to discredit them with or scare the populace with (although he may very well concoct lies about the new government as well).

Russia is a major problem in this equation and to state otherwise is to underestimate its capabilities, i.e., Putin is playing a dangerous imperialist game that will put the whole world in danger.

That has been the consistent ‘story’ from western media since Crimea, it now seems to be on the turn though - the BBC story posted earlier on the thread, and the article I posted.

This is another story however as no other media sources have picked it up yet, it will not be believed until others do.

rt.com/news/eu-no-russian-interference-ukraine-844/

EU spy chief rules out Russian military presence in Ukraine

*IThere is no large Russian military presence in East Ukraine, head of EU intelligence, Commodore Georgij Alafuzoff, has said. The spy chief has dismissed multiple accusations from the West alleging Russian involvement in the unrest in the region.

In an interview with Finnish national news broadcaster, Yle, Alafuzoff said the Russian military had nothing to do with the seizing of government buildings in eastern Ukraine.

“In my opinion, it’s mostly people who live in the region who are not satisfied with the current state of affairs,” said Alafuzoff, referring to the situation in East Ukraine. He went on to say that the people are worried for the welfare of those who speak Russian as their first language in the region.

Alafuzoff echoed the words of the Russian government which has categorically denied interfering in the ongoing unrest. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in a press conference on Monday that Moscow is not interested in destabilizing Ukraine and wants the country to remain united.

Anti-Kiev activists in the southeast of Ukraine have seized local government buildings as a mark of protest against the coup-appointed Ukrainian government. In response to the unrest, Ukraine’s interim President Aleksandr Turchinov announced the beginning of an “anti-terrorist” operation in eastern Ukraine.*

 

[Ridgerunner]

Read the article above, 'not Russia’s fault. about the electoral demographics and history and unrest in Ukraine… Russia has suggested federalisation of Ukraine, but it’s up to the Ukrainians. He can’t do what he did with Crimea to other oblasts/areas, Crimea was already an autonomous republic, declared under ‘an un-elected Ukraine government’ it was a republic, etc…

Of course it’s devastating for the Ukrainians and my heart goes out to them, they are the ones in the thick of it all always the people on the ground that suffer - the EU messing about in December set the whole thing off, reneging on monetary deals, no membership of the EU, etc. Then the EU and the US helped pick the ‘new’ government and the rest is history.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...V7QCueefQwGnp5ad99GgTMTaKB8SlnL37mYu31OlY0rVr

From an interesting article cited in one of your former citations:

“In Hungary, for example, Putin has taken the Jobbik party under his wing. The third-largest party in the country, Jobbik has supporters who dress in Nazi-type uniforms, spout anti-Semitic rhetoric, and express concern about Israeli “colonization” of Hungary. The party has capitalized on rising support for nationalist economic policies, which are seen as an antidote for unpopular austerity policies and for Hungary’s economic liberalization in recent years. Russia is bent on tapping into that sentiment.”

The article goes on to say that Putin is supporting a number of extremely right wing nationalist groups in Eastern Europe, not just in Hungary.

Interesting. So Putin is behind some of the “right wing”, “fascist-type” parties in eastern Europe; the purpose of the partnership being to disrupt integration into non-Russian Europe.

Not a bad strategy on Putin’s part. Playing both sides; the ultra-nationalist native movements and the Russian nativist movements simultaneously. Support ultra-nationalist (apparently anti-semitic, virtual Nazi) disruptive minorities, which he surely also supported in Ukraine, in order to create social disorder and “fascist perils” which he can then “resolve” by simply conquering former Soviet states and taking them under his own brand of fascism.

Clever. KGB all the way. Even Lenin supported “provocations” that he could “solve” by ever greater repressive measures. Europeans should be even more worried about Putin than is commonly perceived in the U.S. Those with decent intelligence serivices probably know Putin is stirring up all of this, and not only in Ukraine.

And so, when Russian apologists cite “fascist” influences in countries like Ukraine, the reality is that Putin controls those groups as well. But then, when one considers “fascism” one could hardly find a better example than Putin’s Russia.

In thinking about all of this, one has to realize there is really no difference between “fascism” and the “communism” of Putin’s KGB. Both are really all about authoritarian domination of, and exploitation of, a people for the benefit of powerful elites.
No matter what brand of economics it purports to espouse, it’s really about the power and privilege of a cadre of those on top, at the expense of the populace.

Those in Europe who value freedom and prosperity absolutely need to take heed of this. There is a new Hitler in town. Sadly, there are always those who think fascism is a good idea, even in the west.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Ukraine’s interim government is just that an interim government, i.e., the people be they Ukrainian or Russian speaking, pro EU or pro Russian, will have the chance to voice their opinions come May 25th, but the fact of the matter is that Putin IS destabilizing the situation in the Ukraine because he knows that he presently has the upper hand, i.e., once the new elected government takes power he won’t have the club of Nazism/fascism to discredit them with or scare the populace with (although he may very well concoct lies about the new government as well).

Russia is a major problem in this equation and to state otherwise is to underestimate its capabilities, i.e., Putin is playing a dangerous imperialist game that could put the whole world in danger.

Josie, read the following article. Appears Putin is the one who is creating his own “Nazism/fascism” clubs and causing disruptions. foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies

Curiouser and curiouser. This is SO KGB.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Democracy and market economies are so…well…messy. Some, even in the west can’t stand it, and long for authoritarian government that promises certitudes both in being ruled by disciplinarians and in being guaranteed a scanty living rather than take the risks inherent in seeking greater rewards. And they’re willing to pay the price, or at least allow others to pay the price.

That’s the allure of some of these Putin-supported nationalist groups that don’t think they can handle the kinds of economic measures that have allowed for prosperity in places like Germany. Shrunken, misguided little souls. But they do get to have a certain amount of empty pride in seeing their forces crush those who are better off or who they think might be. That’s Putin’s appeal in Russia. Greater Russia. Empire. Lots of Russians buy it because it gives them something to feel good about notwithstanding the squalor of Russian life. What they don’t realize is that their poverty is the servant to the wealth of the elites.

The Soviet Union was always a robber nation that stole from its own and from its empire. Putin’s Russia is no different.

I asked before how much Putin is worth now, but nobody answered. The last I read it was $40 billion. I guess that will stand until someone comes up with better figures.

 

[josie_L]

Josie, read the following article. Appears Putin is the one who is creating his own “Nazism/fascism” clubs and causing disruptions. foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies

Curiouser and curiouser. This is SO KGB.

Thank you, I will, and good post (#874).

 

[KyivAndrew]

Here’s the latest US State Department fact sheet:
state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/04/224759.htm

Thank you, Miserissima. That is a very good list in a nutshell in response to the Putin regime’s lies about Ukraine and Russia’s actions. As the document states: “Sadly, the ethnic Russians most at risk are those who live in Russia and who oppose the authoritarian Putin regime. These Russians are harassed constantly and face years of imprisonment for speaking out against Putin’s regular abuses of power.”

 

[KyivAndrew]

korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3350490-rehyonaly-na-sezde-podderzhaly-referendum-v-donetskoi-oblasty

*Regionals at the Congress supported the referendum in the Donetsk region.

Representatives of Donetsk on the eve of the republic established by the CEC and prepare for a referendum on May 11.
Party of Regions supports the initiative of holding a referendum in the Donetsk region, scheduled for May 11. Told delegate OL Roman Kovalenko during the extraordinary congress of deputies of the Party of Regions at all levels of the Donetsk region. “I believe that we need to support the initiative to hold a referendum of the people” - said Kovalenko.

Previously reported that in Donetsk created the Central Election Commission, which will deal with the organization and conduct of the referendum . In particular, the Donetsk regional council deputy Irina Popova said that as she became known, the People’s Republic of Donetsk CEC allocated a building next to the regional administration, known in the former home of political education.

“For the list of members of the CEC is now taking shape,” - said Popov. She also said that a referendum will be decided two questions. “First, presumably, would be:” Do you agree with the creation of an independent republic in Donetsk?. “Second,” In which state should be Donetsk Republic - Ukraine or Russia? ". According to Popov, the CEC has to be done “titanic work” as in the Donetsk region with a population of 4.5 million people, about 3.5 million voters.*

OK. Pepipop. I guess you don’t read Russian or Ukrainian, so the semantics are getting lost by you which is effecting how you understand the situation. Did you use google translate to try to understand this article originally written in Russian, which you didn’t quote in full?

The self-styled “Donetsk Republic” or Peoples’ Republic of Donetsk is not the legitimate Donetsk authority. It came into being when a group of armed thugs and separatists, with Russian secret police support, stormed the Donetsk Regional Administration Building earlier this month and self-declared a Peoples’ Republic. As AP reported:

To reach the People’s Republic of Donetsk, you need to pass a few club-wielding young men in masks, wind through a narrow corridor of sand-filled sacks and enter a gray office tower standing in the heart of this eastern Ukrainian city.

The self-styled autonomous territory — really just an 11-story government building and its surroundings — insists it is the true voice of the 4.3 million people living in the Donetsk region. It has become the latest focus of protest in the largely Russian-speaking east since Kremlin-friendly President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown in February.

In its current form, the Donetsk Republic poses little real threat to the central government’s authority, and rallies demanding autonomy have drawn at most a few thousand people.

These armed masked thugs as of today have attempted to storm and take over the Donetsk City Hall. This Donetsk Peoples’ Republic is basically an armed separatist masked militia which has stormed and taken over several government buildings and is calling itself the true authority in Donetsk which it is not. This group of thugs are also the ones calling for the Referendum on May 11, which is what the Kremlin wants. The people of this self-proclaimed peoples’ republic have already declared their allegiance to Russia earlier. They don’t represent the majority of the residents of the Donbas by any means.

Your mistaken take on the situation leads other posters to misinterpret what’s happening. Maybe if you don’t understand the article in its original language, best not to use google translate and then post the translation on CAF as it is not great in translating from Slavic to English at times, unless of course you truly mistakenly believe the propaganda this two-week old Donetsk Peoples’ Republic represents Donetsk.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Donetsk is a part of Ukraine. Unless the Ukrainians sign it away it must remain Ukrainian. They can have as many referendums as they please it won’t change this.

ATB

Mickey Finn, I agree but pepipop I believe is a bit of confused about the article he linked to which is in Russian (and to which you responded). The referendum being proposed in Donetsk is by a self-styled Donetsk Peoples’ Republic which consists of the armed and masked separatists and thugs that have stormed Donetsk’s government buildings. They are not the legitimate authority, but only have the backing of the Kremlin. Last poll, only 18% of people in Donetsk wished to join Russia and, as in the Crimean Referendum, there is no choice for staying in Ukraine as is. Apparently the self-proclaimed Donetsk Peoples’ Republic doesn’t believe Donetsk residents can have this choice. But again this self-proclaimed body doesn’t speak for the people of Donetsk, just a vocal minority with outside Russian support.

 

[KyivAndrew]

That Euromaidan bunch really got some people scared and angry in Eastern and Southern Ukraine.

Perhaps, not as much as the consistent Russian propaganda and lies pumped on Putin’s Russian television stations about the Kyiv government. Look people in the West here get taken in by RT in English. When was the last time Russian television ever criticized Putin? Think about the people in the Donbas who rely on Russian stations for their news and its agitprop, though for your own reasons you find RT trustworthy. I’ve been told by people personally in Eastern Ukraine of the harm Russian TV was and is having on people there getting an objective picture of the situation.

From Miserissima’s link: "An International Republican Institute poll released April 5 found that 74 percent of the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine said they “were not under pressure or threat because of their language.” Someone should tell Russian news stations that figure and how weak separatism is in Ukraine.

As Taras Kuzio wrote Russia faces formidable obstacles in its plans for Ukraine:

“First, the aim of the “green men” [camouflaged and well-armed pro-Russian separatists] is to mobilize support for separatism in Russian-speaking eastern and southern Ukraine opinion, but **polls do not give high levels of support for either federalism, a strong Russian demand, or for union with Russia. In a poll conducted by the Kyiv-based Democratic Initiative foundation, only 6 to 7 percent in eastern and southern Ukraine support their region’s separation and union with Russia. That support reaches its high, 18 percent, in the Donbass region, in the far southeast. Nowhere does secession have majority support.”
**
atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-unthinkable-happens-in-europe-russia-invades-ukraine

 

[KyivAndrew]

From Anne Applebaum of the Washington Post who wrote a great study of how the Soviets annexed Eastern Europe.

the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine involves not soldiers but local thugs and volunteers, some linked to the ex-president, Viktor Yanukovych , some from criminal gangs and some who mistakenly think they are fighting for some form of benign local autonomy.

They are being led not by officers in uniform but by men from Russian military intelligence and special forces, some wearing camouflage without insignia, some communicating with “activists” by telephone. They are supplied with Russian logistics and a few Russian automatic weapons, but for the most part not tanks or planes. There is no “shock and awe” bombing campaign, just systematic, organized attacks on police stations, city councils, airports.

In the long term, Russia clearly hopes to annex eastern and southern Ukraine; maps to that effect have begun to circulate.

But in the meantime, the Kremlin may settle for disrupting Ukraine’s presidential elections, scheduled for May 25, or for destabilizing Ukraine’s shaky provisional government, perhaps forcing an economic crash. The Russians may hope to provoke a civil war, or something that appears to be a civil war, which would then require a Russian “peacekeeping mission.”

Many of these tactics are familiar, though we haven’t seen them for a long time. In 1945, Soviet secret policemen, given the task of transforming disparate Eastern European nations into communist puppet states, also began by organizing local thugs and volunteers — criminals and war-damaged sociopaths as well as people who mistakenly believed they were fighting for a form of benign socialism — into paramilitary and secret police forces, exactly like the ones operating in eastern Ukraine.

…the Internet has lit up with photographs of “pro-Russian activists” carrying Russian-made RPGs, as well as audio clips of Russians barking orders. The effect of these revelations, however, has been to encourage the Russians to lie more brazenly and aggressively. The Russian foreign minister continues to insist that “Moscow is not interested in destabilizing Ukraine,” and Russian President Vladimir Putin has called on the United Nations to condemn Ukraine’s weak and confused attempts to defend itself. Russian television — watched by many in eastern Ukraine — continues to denounce nonexistent violence coming from “fascist Kiev” and is even showing politicized weather reports: Dark clouds are gathering over Donetsk while there is sun in Crimea. These language games and disinformation campaigns are now far more sophisticated than anything the Soviet Union ever produced.

This combination — old-fashioned Sovietization plus slick modern media — is genuinely new, so much so that it’s fair to say we are witnessing a new kind of war, and a new kind of invasion.

Europe, the United States and above all the Ukrainians need to learn to cope with masked warfare — the Russian term is maskirovka — which is designed to confuse not just opponents but also the opponents’ potential allies.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/anne-applebaum-a-fearful-new-world-imperiled-by-russias-subterfuge/2014/04/16/69a28170-c584-11e3-9f37-7ce307c56815_story.html

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Democracy and market economies are so…well…messy. Some, even in the west can’t stand it, and long for authoritarian government that promises certitudes both in being ruled by disciplinarians and in being guaranteed a scanty living rather than take the risks inherent in seeking greater rewards. And they’re willing to pay the price, or at least allow others to pay the price. Couldn’t resist adding your own twisted spin to an otherwise decent post?

That’s the allure of some of these Putin-supported nationalist groups that don’t think they can handle the kinds of economic measures that have allowed for prosperity in places like Germany. Shrunken, misguided little souls. But they do get to have a certain amount of empty pride in seeing their forces crush those who are better off or who they think might be. That’s Putin’s appeal in Russia. Greater Russia. Empire. Lots of Russians buy it because it gives them something to feel good about notwithstanding the squalor of Russian life. What they don’t realize is that their poverty is the servant to the wealth of the elites.

The Soviet Union was always a robber nation that stole from its own and from its empire. Putin’s Russia is no different.

I asked before how much Putin is worth now, but nobody answered. The last I read it was $40 billion. I guess that will stand until someone comes up with better figures.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Mickey_Finn:
“Twisted spin?” Are you saying nobody in the east or west seeks security in authoritarianism? That would be remarkable, since the story of the 20th Century is about little else.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

“Twisted spin?” Are you saying nobody in the east or west seeks security in authoritarianism? That would be remarkable, since the story of the 20th Century is about little else.

I think most realize that organization, and leadership are a necessary component of survival. What I reject is how you seek to marginalize people who must survive under conditions other than your own.*** But otherwise, some of your recent observations have been spot on.***ATB

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think most realize that organization, and leadership are a necessary component of survival. What I reject is how you seek to marginalize people who must survive under conditions other than your own.*** But otherwise, some of your recent observations have been spot on.***ATB

I’ll admit I have been heavily influenced by A.S. Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag” series, (as well as some of his other works) which i have read more times than I can acknowledge without drawing my grown children’s amusement. I discover something new every time.

One of the reasons I keep going back to it is that it is such a much more complex work than most think it is. It’s not just about the Soviet penal system. Among other things, it’s a profound exploration of the impulse to totalitarianism, and the “shrinkage of soul”, if you will, that accompanies the journey. It is also about those who do not sink to that, and how they get to where their souls “ascend” even in this life.

I have long thought schools would do well to spend no less than a year on a course based on those volumes alone.

Of passing interest, he speaks of Western Ukrainians in a very positive light as compared to many Russians. Orthodox himself, he admires their Catholicism and how seriously they took it during his years in the Gulag. Proudly Russian himself, it was his position that Russia has done Ukraine so many terrible wrongs that Russia will never recover her own soul as a nation until she allows Ukrainians full and unrestricted freedom to truly determine their own future.

Of additional interest, he has a fascinating segment on the Chechens. Even the Soviets were afraid of them, and even when they were in the Gulag.

Prescient guy. Unfortunately, too few heeded him, and few now even know of him.

 

[Seamus_L]

3 more anti-government protesters killed last night in the city of Mariupol en.ria.ru/world/20140417/189246200/3-Dead-13-Injured-in-Overnight-Attacks-in-Ukraines-Mariupol.html

 

[Ridgerunner]

3 more anti-government protesters killed last night in the city of Mariupol en.ria.ru/world/20140417/189246200/3-Dead-13-Injured-in-Overnight-Attacks-in-Ukraines-Mariupol.html

Russian provocateurs attacked a Ukrainian military base and some got killed and injured in the process. That’s what provocations are for. Dangerous from Ukraine’s standpoint to resist Russian provocations, but hard to blame them for it.

 

[Seamus_L]

In the event that casualties begin mounting in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. I believe it will result in the moderates and fence sitters among the Russian speaking population aligning with the hardline secessionists.

 

[Miserissima]

In the event that casualties begin mounting in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. I believe it will result in the moderates and fence sitters among the Russian speaking population aligning with the hardline secessionists.

I see that happening too, but not on such a scale as Russian media would have us believe.

Those who align themselves will be doing so to protect their economic interests, not because of some souped up ideology.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In the event that casualties begin mounting in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. I believe it will result in the moderates and fence sitters among the Russian speaking population aligning with the hardline secessionists.

Yes, that’s the Russian version of things.

Poor Ukrainians. They have an impossible choice. Simply allow the Russian agents to take over Eastern and Southern Ukraine and do nothing, or resist it and give Russia an excuse to “intervene”.

And as it escalates, which it surely will, many of the “moderates” and 'fence sitters" will figure their fate has already been determined by Putin and go supine in the “face of the inevitable”, and quite likely they would be right in believing it.