Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

How many died ousting the legally elected government v how many died from the Crimean annexation?

I am hardly a “Russophile” just not gullible. I am not blinded by old cold war rhetoric. But that might change as Russia seems to be taking on the role as the good guy these days.

Helping people return to their former country.

Stopping the U.S from openly starting another war (Against Syria)

Not arming Al Qaeda in Syria.

Not supporting rebels who crucify Christians for not converting to islam or beheading whole villages of women and children because they happen to be from a different sect of islam. like Obama is doing… Yep if Ronald Regan was to come back tomorrow he would be very confused, what with Russia being the good guys and all. ( i would provide proof, but it’s rather graphic. But if you insists i can provide it.)

I don’t think anybody knows for sure how many died in the Ukrainian protests or at whose hands. But for sure, Yanukovych’s snipers initiated it. I think everyone agrees with that.

In no way do I support Obama’s foreign policy if, indeed, he can be said to have one. I am sure I would criticize it even more than you would.

The one picture of a “crucifixion” I have seen published is not identified as a Christian, nor does anything about it point to execution by crucifixion. On the contrary.

Never would I defend Islam-on-Islam violence. It’s the nature of the Middle East nowadays, though, and has been for centuries. Could have been prevented on this scale, but Obama wouldn’t. But one thing is for certain, Russia, which is in league with Assad, has not moved a finger to protect any of the Christians in Syria; something he could do as part of the price of his support for Assad and Iran.

I have no idea what graphic proof you’re talking about, or what it proves. So, spare us unless there is some very clear and cogent policy (not emotional) point to make with it.

Russia=“the good guys?” Perhaps it would be well to wait to see what all Putin does before deciding that. So far, he has violated Russia’s agreement as to the territorial integrity of Ukraine and has detached and annexed part of two countries. Doesn’t seem like all that much of a “good guy” to me.

 

[latin_rite]

Well things are going to go either way now. Three choppers have been shot down in the eastern town of Slavyansk with at least one pilot dead.

liveleak.com/view?i=12c_1399002090&comments=1

 

[Ridgerunner]

None of these takeovers by seperatists in Eastern Ukraine would have occured had it not been for the visably Western backed coup in Kiev and the prominent involvement of anti-Russian extremists. Had that not been the case, then why did this all happen now and not 5 or 10 years ago ?

                             They may love the Euromaidan in places like L'viv, but in Donetsk, Luhansk, Slaviansk, etc, alot of people don't share that view. And even a recent survey in the Kyiv Post admits as much.

Kyiv Andrew’s former post put the “join Russia” segment of the eastern Ukrainian population at well below 50%, just as it was in Crimea. I do not for a moment doubt Putin can phony up a “referendum” in eastern Ukraine just as he did in Crimea.

But even if he didn’t (which I do not grant) Putin is seizing parts of other countries and incorporating them into Russia. Imperialism at its modern worst.

 

[josie_L]

How many died ousting the legally elected government v how many died from the Crimean annexation?

So a foreign country like Russia can annex parts of the Ukraine by invading its territories, taking out its legally elected government with one wholly sympathetic to Russian unity, declare a referendum to unite with Russia while under said country’s occupation, disregard the 48% of those who were not in favour of a referendum, not only because it was being conducted by the Russians but because the referendum did not include an option against the referendum, i.e., keeping the status quo??

And yes, a few people have died during the occupation, while others are being ethnically cleansed (ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars) from Crimea.

And if the amount of people being killed is how we determine the morality of an annexation, then let me remind you that Hitler was able to ANNEX Sudetenland without violence.

I am hardly a “Russophile” just not gullible. I am not blinded by old cold war rhetoric. But that might change as Russia seems to be taking on the role as the good guy these days.

A lot of people thought Hitler was a good guy too, that is, until he invaded Poland and caused WWII.

Helping people return to their former country. Stopping the U.S from openly starting another war (Against Syria). Not arming Al Qaeda in Syria.

Not supporting rebels who crucify Christians for not converting to islam or beheading whole villages of women and children because they happen to be from a different sect of islam. like Obama is doing.

If you want a good indication of whether the Russian government is in the right than I suggest you look to Russia for evidence, i.e., there is no freedom of religion (not even for Catholics), there is no freedom of expression and/or speech, there is no freedom of the press (the duma just announced/passed a law that the Internet will be restricted), there is rampant abortion wherein abortion rates exceed live births (which is why they now have to put restrictions on abortion), there is massive poverty (because an oligarchy of power exists in Russia), there is massive corruption at all state levels in all state institutions . . . . . this is the environment/culture that Putin helped create in Russia.

 

[josie_L]

They haven’t invaded the Ukraine and Crimea was hardly a invasion. More an invitation.

Russian forces invaded Crimea, put in place a puppet government that then requested their help, when the help was already there. Very Machiavellian, don’t you think??

 

[josie_L]

The only fraud that occurred was the illegal and violent removal of the legitimate and democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych, who was replaced by men and women much more corrupt and violent than anything he was ever alleged to have been.

PROVE IT!!!

What a highly ignorant and uncharitable thing to say. And also hypocritical, given the nature of the Maidan.

Oh, I’ve missed you and your posts, really I have.

 

[josie_L]

I’ll ignore the gratuitous personal insult.

I have not ignored it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well things are going to go either way now. Three choppers have been shot down in the eastern town of Slavyansk with at least one pilot dead.

liveleak.com/view?i=12c_1399002090&comments=1

Russians shot down three Ukrainian helicopters on Ukrainian territory (one carried medics, but never mind). Under normal circumstances, that would be considered an act of war on the part of an aggressor, but those who love Putin and hate the west will find another name for it. Interesting that the (bogus) “insurgents” have mobile air defense weapons.

This is all so transparent. I have long suspected Russia would seize the industrial and best agricultural parts of Ukraine before the elections on May 25, thereby severely damaging the ethnic Ukrainians Russia seems to hate so much. I could be wrong about the timetable, but it sure looks like the war is on. Now, I think, the only questions are how far into Ukraine the conquest will go, and how quickly Putin will “ethnically cleanse” the part he incorporates into Russia.

 

[Ridgerunner]

One thing’s for sure. The Russian oligarchs (no doubt including Putin) have a lot to gain by seizing the industries and best land in Ukraine. Last I knew, Putin’s personal fortune was $40 billion. It’s about to increase.

One only hopes that, despite Obama’s fecklessness, others in the west will relegate Russia to the pariah status it so richly deserves. Not since Saddam Hussein’s seizure of Kuwait has the world seen this kind of thing.

One does have to pity the ordinary people of Russia notwithstanding the satisfaction some of them evidently get from dreams of empire. Russian oligarchs will gain Ukrainian assets, but the ordinary Russians will never see any of the looted wealth.

 

[HansTrappist]

I’ll ignore the gratuitous personal insult.

I won’t ignore the uncharitable, irrational anti-Russian sentiment that is ubiquitous on this thread.

 

[HansTrappist]

One thing’s for sure. The Russian oligarchs (no doubt including Putin) have a lot to gain by seizing the industries and best land in Ukraine. Last I knew, Putin’s personal fortune was $40 billion. It’s about to increase.

One only hopes that, despite Obama’s fecklessness, others in the west will relegate Russia to the pariah status it so richly deserves. Not since Saddam Hussein’s seizure of Kuwait has the world seen this kind of thing.

One does have to pity the ordinary people of Russia notwithstanding the satisfaction some of them evidently get from dreams of empire. Russian oligarchs will gain Ukrainian assets, but the ordinary Russians will never see any of the looted wealth.

More undocumented slander.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I won’t ignore the uncharitable, irrational anti-Russian sentiment that is ubiquitous on this thread.

Nobody, as far as I know, has condemned the Russians as a people, any more than they would have condemned Germans wholesale for WWII or the Italians as a peple for Mussolini’s aggressions. I am sure there are plenty of quite virtuous Russians; some of which, I am sure, do not approve of Russian conquest of Ukraine.

But the fact has to be faced that Ukraine is the third country now, from which Russia has seized territory.

 

[Ridgerunner]

More undocumented slander.

Truth, of course, is an absolute defense to an action for “slander”. Putin is hugely wealthy. The Russian people are poor. Putin has seized parts of three countries so far.

At some point, one really needs to face reality. What would it take to do that? Seizure of all of Ukraine? Or would he need to seize Poland too? If not Poland, is seizure of Germany also required? France? What, exactly would, to Putin’s supporters, be “too much”? I have asked that before and not received an answer. Could it be that Putin supporters don’t answer because they’re not sure he won’t grab more territory from additional countries?

 

[HansTrappist]

PROVE IT!!!

Oh, I’ve missed you and your posts, really I have.

All you need in order to prove that Victor Yanukovych was violently and unconstitutionally removed is a pair of eyeballs. The dead Ukrainian Berkut - murdered by Molotov cocktails, clubs and bullets of the Maidan - are an eternal testament against the anti-Russian propaganda on this thread.

Are you suggesting that the current occupies of Kiev are legitimate and non-violent? LOLOLOLOL!!!

By the way, as I write this, the Ukrainian military is now engaged in an all out assault against citizens of Eastern Ukraine who have expressed a desire to break away from the criminal regime in Kiev.

The West wants Putin to invade. They are goading him. They are provoking him. They are using innocent Ukrainians as the bait and if and when Putin invades he will be fully justified in doing so and bringing some much needed Justice on the criminal regime in Kiev.

 

[DaveBj]

I won’t ignore the uncharitable, irrational anti-Russian sentiment that is ubiquitous on this thread.

The sentiment is actually anti-tyrant. it appears to be anti-Russian only because the tyrant in this case is a Russian. Furthermore, it is not irrational; rather, it is based on facts and solid analysis. And if it is uncharitable, the lack of charity has been earned by the actions of the figures being discussed.

Yes, Yanukovich was an elected head of government, and yes, he was a ??? (fill in your own favorite Anglo-Saxonism), and yes, he was overthrown in a coup d’état, the violence of which was partly his fault. Yes, the referendum in Crimea was suspect; however, I doubt that the results would have been significantly different if it had been held under tight UN supervision. Crimea has been part of Ukraine for only a half century or so, and according to the most recent figures I have seen, ethnic Russians outnumber ethnic Ukrainians there by almost 2.5 to 1.

HOWEVER, the blatant use of Russian forces in Crimea in the days preceding the referendum, as well as the current actions of ?undercover Russian troops? in eastern Ukraine (where, indeed, would ethnic street hooligans get anti-aircraft weapons?) are actions that are based on any form of legitimate Christianity that I am familiar with.

(I have the degrees and 25 years of experience in this part of the world, if anyone cares.)

 

[josie_L]

I won’t ignore the uncharitable, irrational anti-Russian sentiment that is ubiquitous on this thread.

It’s not uncharitable if it’s true, and it’s not anti-Russian either, i.e., not anymore than my stance against gay marriage makes ME anti-gay.

P.S. Be careful of who you call uncharitable and irrational!!

 

[HansTrappist]

Nobody, as far as I know, has condemned the Russians as a people, any more than they would have condemned Germans wholesale for WWII or the Italians as a peple for Mussolini’s aggressions. I am sure there are plenty of quite virtuous Russians; some of which, I am sure, do not approve of Russian conquest of Ukraine.

But the fact has to be faced that Ukraine is the third country now, from which Russia has seized territory.

You use the term “facts” very loosely.

Fact: Victor Yanukovych was violently and unconstitutionally removed from power and remains the legitimate ruler of Ukraine.

Fact: Victoria Nuland, John McCain, Catherine Ashton and other Western leaders visited Kiev in the run-up to the violence and gave their support to the radical, fascist elements that were to provide the muscle behind Maidan.

Fact: Crimea voted for autonomy in a democratic, transparent election.

Fact: Russia secured Crimea without firing a shot in a superb use of special forces and was fully justified to do so given their national security interests in the region, the failure of Kiev to uphold the February 21st Agreement, and the lack of a legitimate regime in Kiev capable of protecting Russian citizens and ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.

Fact: For the West to criticize Russia given the West’s own shameful history of invading sovereign nations over the last decade, is the par excellence of hypocrisy and intellectual depravity and is made all the more rich given the West’s involvement in the Orange Revolution and now the Maidan.

 

[HansTrappist]

It’s not uncharitable if it’s true, and it’s not anti-Russian either, i.e., not anymore than my stance against gay marriage makes ME anti-gay.

P.S. Be careful of who you call uncharitable and irrational!!

Comparing Vladimir Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany - as has been done on this thread - is uncharitable and will not be tolerated. It’s the kind of tactic I would expect from the State Department, not a Catholic Forum.

And pulling the old ad Hitlerum fallacy is always a sure sign of a losing argument.

 

[Ridgerunner]

By the way, as I write this, the Ukrainian military is now engaged in an all out assault against citizens of Eastern Ukraine who have expressed a desire to break away from the criminal regime in Kiev.

The West wants Putin to invade. They are goading him. They are provoking him. They are using innocent Ukrainians as the bait and if and when Putin invades he will be fully justified in doing so and bringing some much needed Justice on the criminal regime in Kiev.

The “citizens of Eastern Ukraine”??? Where did they get mobile anti-air defense weapons? They didn’t make them themselves out of old toilet paper cardboard. This is Russian all the way.

If the west wanted Putin to invade and be on their doorstep, they would be saying it. They do not want him on their doorstep, which is why the threatened states are scrambling to get their own defenses together. Imagine what it would take to get even neutral Sweden alarmed. Well, Russian military overflights of Swedish territory was sufficient.

The “criminal regime” in Kiev even includes some of Yanukovych’s party, and even they don’t want Russia to conquer Ukraine. When Yanuko ran to Putin’s protection, the parliament had to do something, and did. When a leader turns traitor to his country, is a people supposed to just let him do whatever he wants, including engaging trained Russian snipers to shoot protesters?

And no matter what, Ukraine is the THIRD country whose territory Putin has seized. Even Hitler only got two before people finally acknowledged he was an aggressor.

The more intense the Russian propaganda gets about the “illigitimate” government in Kiev, the more I get persuaded that Putin is going to seize eastern Ukraine before the elections on May 25. It will be harder to use that as a fig leaf afterward. Maybe he’ll do it on election day, so he can claim “voter intimidation” makes the new government “illigitimate”.

 

[DaveBj]

You use the term “facts” very loosely.

Fact: Victor Yanukovych was violently and unconstitutionally removed from power and remains the legitimate ruler of Ukraine.

This is true, although he did deserve to be removed from power, and if there were any true justice in that part of the world, he would be in prison.

Fact: Victoria Nuland, John McCain, Catherine Ashton and other Western leaders visited Kiev in the run-up to the violence and gave their support to the radical, fascist elements that were to provide the muscle behind Maidan.

This is true, although I think use of the term “fascist” moves you from reasoned debate into the realm of name-calling, just as did my use of the term “tyrant” a few posts above.

Fact: Crimea voted for autonomy in a democratic, transparent election.

I’ll call this one true, based on my personal belief (also stated above) that the outcome would have been the same, whatever the transparency and oversight of the election.

Fact: Russia secured Crimea without firing a shot in a superb use of special forces and was fully justified to do so given their national security interests in the region, the failure of Kiev to uphold the February 21st Agreement, and the lack of a legitimate regime in Kiev capable of protecting Russian citizens and ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.

True. HOWEVER, the use of Russian military forces on Ukrainian territory in Crimea prior to the referendum was blatantly illegal, whatever the legality of the current regime in Kiev.

Fact: For the West to criticize Russia given the West’s own shameful history of invading sovereign nations over the last decade, is the par excellence of hypocrisy and intellectual depravity and is made all the more rich given the West’s involvement in the Orange Revolution and now the Maidan.

Now we have left the arena of reasoned discourse altogether. Your fifth “fact” drags up subjects that have nothing to do with the current topic of discussion. You have introduced a “red herring,” a “tu quoque” argument, and possibly several other logical fallacies. We’re talking about Russia and Ukraine. Kindly stick to the subject.