Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

Comparing Vladimir Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany - as has been done on this thread - is uncharitable and will not be tolerated. It’s the kind of tactic I would expect from the State Department, not a Catholic Forum.

And pulling the old ad Hitlerum fallacy is always a sure sign of a losing argument.

Some, back in the 1930s compared Hitler to Napoleon, and they were…RIGHT.

Okay, I’ll admit Putin doesn’t have a mustache. Nor have I heard of any antisemitic statements made by him. But he is conquering the territory of others; others whose sovereignty his country pledged to respect.

In that respect, and in terms of the preference some had for turning a blind eye to his aggressions, one can rightly compare him to Hitler. But we’ll leave Hitler alone, despite the similarities in conduct. It is a bit overutilized, isn’t it? How about Saddam Hussein? After all, he claimed Kuwait was rightly part of Iraq, Kuwaitis are Arabs, all of them, indistinguishable in any way from Iraqis. Hussein had as good or better claim to Kuwait than Putin has to Ukraine.

Okay, then, Saddam Hussein it is.

(Or does Hirohito have a better claim to the honor? )

 

[HansTrappist]

The “citizens of Eastern Ukraine”??? Where did they get mobile anti-air defense weapons? They didn’t make them themselves out of old toilet paper cardboard. This is Russian all the way.

If the west wanted Putin to invade and be on their doorstep, they would be saying it. They do not want him on their doorstep, which is why the threatened states are scrambling to get their own defenses together. Imagine what it would take to get even neutral Sweden alarmed. Well, Russian military overflights of Swedish territory was sufficient.

The “criminal regime” in Kiev even includes some of Yanukovych’s party, and even they don’t want Russia to conquer Ukraine. When Yanuko ran to Putin’s protection, the parliament had to do something, and did. When a leader turns traitor to his country, is a people supposed to just let him do whatever he wants, including engaging trained Russian snipers to shoot protesters?

And no matter what, Ukraine is the THIRD country whose territory Putin has seized. Even Hitler only got two before people finally acknowledged he was an aggressor.

The more intense the Russian propaganda gets about the “illigitimate” government in Kiev, the more I get persuaded that Putin is going to seize eastern Ukraine before the elections on May 25. It will be harder to use that as a fig leaf afterward. Maybe he’ll do it on election day, so he can claim “voter intimidation” makes the new government “illigitimate”.

The more innocent, ethnic Russian Ukrainians that are murdered by the Ukrainian “military” the greater the odds that Putin will invade. Unlike our unjust wars over the last decade, Putin will be fully justified in restoring law and order to Ukraine. In fact, Putin has already been authorized to use force against the criminal occupiers in Kiev. In fact, Victor Yanukovych is still the legitimate commander-in-chief and may have already requested Russia’s assistance in restoring law and order. Putin is biding his time. I think he realizes that the West desperately wants him to invade. That’s why he is waiting. Perhaps he understands the spiritual dynamic that is driving this conflict.

 

[DaveBj]

Comparing Vladimir Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany - as has been done on this thread - is uncharitable and will not be tolerated. It’s the kind of tactic I would expect from the State Department, not a Catholic Forum.

And pulling the old ad Hitlerum fallacy is always a sure sign of a losing argument.

snip

Fact: Victoria Nuland, John McCain, Catherine Ashton and other Western leaders visited Kiev in the run-up to the violence and gave their support to the radical, fascist elements that were to provide the muscle behind Maidan.

snip

A little consistency in your outlook would be nice.

 

[KyivAndrew]

The “citizens of Eastern Ukraine”??? Where did they get mobile anti-air defense weapons? They didn’t make them themselves out of old toilet paper cardboard. This is Russian all the way.

Exactly Ridgerunner; Surface to Air missiles fired from the Donetsk terrorists’ base in Slovyansk shooting down Ukrainian helicopters shows that Putin is supplying these guys. The civilians whom the Russians originally installed as the “governors” of a self-proclaimed Donetsk republic, the Russian neo-Nazi Pavel Gubarev and now the crook (ponzi scheme thief) Denis Pushilin are not the ones running this show. Russian military intelligence (the GRU) for years has been active in Ukraine.

All the Ukrainian Churches, Catholic, all Orthodox, Protestant have all come out against the separatism being propagated by these terrorists. All Ukraine’s Churches, even the one that’s supposed to be under Moscow. Russian state TV propaganda constantly blasts that the Kyiv government as illegitimate and fascist and Russian agit-prop is nothing to laugh it. It is slick and made believable for people in Donetsk. Heck, even people in the West gullibly swallow RT’s stories as truth. Evidently, the Heads of the Ukrainian and Roman Catholic Churches in Ukraine, and the Heads of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches, who reside in Ukraine, must all wrong in KGB-man Putin’s eyes for not supporting his Donetsk terrorists but instead supporting the Kyiv government.

 

[josie_L]

All you need in order to prove that Victor Yanukovych was violently and unconstitutionally removed is a pair of eyeballs. The dead Ukrainian Berkut - murdered by Molotov cocktails, clubs and bullets of the Maidan - are an eternal testament against the anti-Russian propaganda on this thread.

Are you claiming that Victor Yanukovych didn’t start the violence, i.e., by ordering the Berkut to disperse/intimidate protestors who purposely aimed and shot their bullets at the eyes and throats of protestors, killing many in the process?? Are you suggesting that the CONSTITUTIONALLY ELECTED president had the right to do this??? Are YOU???

I’m GLAD, ECSTATIC, EUPHORIC, see: :extrahappy: that he was removed, because ALL AUTOCRATS should be removed.

Are you suggesting that the current occupies of Kiev are legitimate and non-violent?

YES, I AM. And your suggestion that the current government is violent, when anyone with a PAIR OF EYEBALLS (look how big mine are ) can see that they have been more than level-headed and cautious in this whole affair, i.e., I don’t see how you can claim that the current government is out for blood, when they’re response to a Russian invasion/incursions into Ukrainian territory has been restrained to say the least.

By the way, as I write this, the Ukrainian military is now engaged in an all out assault against citizens of Eastern Ukraine who have expressed a desire to break away from the criminal regime in Kiev.

Really, the “citizens” of the Eastern Ukraine have expressed a desire to break away (do you include those “citizens” who weren’t able to correctly identity city hall and stormed a theatre instead?). I’d like to know how many you think are interested in breaking away, at, of course, Russia’s instigation?

The West wants Putin to invade. They are goading him. They are provoking him. They are using innocent Ukrainians as the bait and if and when Putin invades he will be fully justified in doing so and bringing some much needed Justice on the criminal regime in Kiev.

Either you cannot admit you were wrong about Putin or you truly believe his propaganda, which is it?

 

[josie_L]

Comparing Vladimir Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany - as has been done on this thread - is uncharitable and will not be tolerated. It’s the kind of tactic I would expect from the State Department, not a Catholic Forum.

And pulling the old ad Hitlerum fallacy is always a sure sign of a losing argument.

“And will not be tolerated”, by whom, the KGB?

 

[HansTrappist]

Some, back in the 1930s compared Hitler to Napoleon, and they were…RIGHT.

Okay, I’ll admit Putin doesn’t have a mustache. Nor have I heard of any antisemitic statements made by him. But he is conquering the territory of others; others whose sovereignty his country pledged to respect.

In that respect, and in terms of the preference some had for turning a blind eye to his aggressions, one can rightly compare him to Hitler. But we’ll leave Hitler alone, despite the similarities in conduct. It is a bit overutilized, isn’t it? How about Saddam Hussein? After all, he claimed Kuwait was rightly part of Iraq, Kuwaitis are Arabs, all of them, indistinguishable in any way from Iraqis. Hussein had as good or better claim to Kuwait than Putin has to Ukraine.

Okay, then, Saddam Hussein it is.

(Or does Hirohito have a better claim to the honor? )

Your logic is flawed.

Crimea voted to join Russia and that vote would NEVER have happened had the Western-sponsored Maidan not violently and unconstitutionally deposed the democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine.

And pretending that Russia’s securing of her long-standing national security interests in Crimea without firing a shot is comparable to Hitler or Saddam’s aggression, is not only intellectually offensive, it is just plain offensive.

By the way, if Putin is Hitler what does that make Bush and Obama? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

 

[KyivAndrew]

I am from Latvia and we have significant minority indeed. Quess how many would like to live in Russia? Some 5% , maybe. Most Russians living in Latvia want to live in Europe.
On the other hand, 300$ a day - like separatists in Ukraine are paid is quite a money and might be quite tempting.

Thanks for the post. My family is from Ukraine and some of it lives there. Just as you say, the Kremlin awash in gas money pays a good chunk of money a day for protestors and thugs to protest and storm buildings in Eastern Ukraine. The Kremlin even pays money for Russians to take buses en masse to designated cities in Ukraine from Russia to protest and then storm buildings. The Ukrainians call these people “Russian tourists” acerbically. The local thugs are also called “titushky”.

Some people in the West have great difficulty understanding or accepting this.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The more innocent, ethnic Russian Ukrainians that are murdered by the Ukrainian “military” the greater the odds that Putin will invade. Unlike our unjust wars over the last decade, Putin will be fully justified in restoring law and order to Ukraine. In fact, Putin has already been authorized to use force against the criminal occupiers in Kiev. In fact, Victor Yanukovych is still the legitimate commander-in-chief and may have already requested Russia’s assistance in restoring law and order. Putin is biding his time. I think he realizes that the West desperately wants him to invade. That’s why he is waiting. Perhaps he understands the spiritual dynamic that is driving this conflict.

Let’s see. Putin’s soldiers shoot down a helicopter full of Ukrainian medics, on Ukrainian territory, and you’re okay with it because you think somehow Putin has some “spiritual” superiority going. Chilling. Truly chilling.

Putin will probably not “bide his time” past May 25, but we’ll see about that. I think he’ll at least conquer eastern Ukraine by then.

And Putin is “authorized” to use force against the government in Kiev? I didn’t know that. Maybe he’s planning to sweep all the way to the Polish border then. Truly astonishing!
I guess there’s no wonder the Poles are scrambling to defend themselves. Who knows whether Putin will be satisfied with just conquering the whole of Ukraine?

 

[HansTrappist]

A little consistency in your outlook would be nice.

Are you seriously pretending that Right Sector is NOT fascist and that Neo-Nazi muscle was NOT essential to the Maidan. Even Western propaganda doesn’t deny that.

 

[HansTrappist]

Let’s see. Putin’s soldiers shoot down a helicopter full of Ukrainian medics, on Ukrainian territory, and you’re okay with it because you think somehow Putin has some “spiritual” superiority going. Chilling. Truly chilling.

Linky or stinky!

 

[josie_L]

A little consistency in your outlook would be nice.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Your logic is flawed.

Crimea voted to join Russia and that vote would NEVER have happened had the Western-sponsored Maidan not violently and unconstitutionally deposed the democratically-elected ruler of Ukraine.

And pretending that Russia’s securing of her long-standing national security interests in Crimea without firing a shot is comparable to Hitler or Saddam’s aggression, is not only intellectually offensive, it is just plain offensive.

By the way, if Putin is Hitler what does that make Bush and Obama? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Okay, you resurrected Hitler, so here goes. Hitler took Austria and the Sudetenland without firing a shot. Want to talk about additional similarities?

The Maidan protests were hardly Western-sponsored. There were millions of people in that. Sure, the west praised it, just as some (but not all) praised the protests in Teheran against the Mullahs. Who did you expect them to support, the New Napoleon? A corrupt president who stole millions and tried to sell them out to Russian poverty?

Not to wear out the comparisons, but you asked. As regards Putin, Bush was culpably negligent in not seeing what Putin was, so let’s compare him to a German industrialist circa 1938, who thought Hitler a better man that he was. Obama is pretty much Neville Chamberlain.

 

[HansTrappist]

And Putin is “authorized” to use force against the government in Kiev? I didn’t know that. Maybe he’s planning to sweep all the way to the Polish border then. Truly astonishing!
I guess there’s no wonder the Poles are scrambling to defend themselves. Who knows whether Putin will be satisfied with just conquering the whole of Ukraine?

Yes, weeks ago the Russian Parliament unanimously approved the use of force against the unconstitutional, Berkut-murdering regime in Kiev.

 

[HansTrappist]

Okay, you resurrected Hitler, so here goes. Hitler took Austria and the Sudetenland without firing a shot. Want to talk about additional similarities?

The Maidan protests were hardly Western-sponsored. There were millions of people in that. Sure, the west praised it, just as some (but not all) praised the protests in Teheran against the Mullahs. Who did you expect them to support, the New Napoleon? A corrupt president who stole millions and tried to sell them out to Russian poverty?

Not to wear out the comparisons, but you asked. As regards Putin, Bush was culpably negligent in not seeing what Putin was, so let’s compare him to a German industrialist circa 1938, who thought Hitler a better man that he was. Obama is pretty much Neville Chamberlain.

Oh brother!!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Two Ukrainian helicopters have been shot down, with two pilots killed and another injured, according to the Defence Ministry in Kyiv.

Russian TV showed pictures of a third pilot apparently injured and captured.

The Ukrainian security service (SBU) says shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles have been used, proving that pro-Russian forces include foreign-trained specialists.

euronews.com/2014/05/02/pilots-killed-as-rebels-shoot-down-ukraine-helicopters-over-slovyansk/

 

[josie_L]

Are you seriously pretending that Right Sector is NOT fascist and that Neo-Nazi muscle was NOT essential to the Maidan. Even Western propaganda doesn’t deny that.

Yes, those “fascist” “neo Nazis” in the Ukrainian government ready to plunge the world into war, by enlisting the help of our very own POPE, yes, the current prime minister of the Ukraine enlisted Pope Francis’s help, and do you know why, TO PRAY FOR PEACE.

 

[DaveBj]

Are you seriously pretending that Right Sector is NOT fascist and that Neo-Nazi muscle was NOT essential to the Maidan. Even Western propaganda doesn’t deny that.

I’m saying that words like “fascist” and “neo-Nazi” are loaded terms. You can’t used them to support your position, and then complain when other people use them to oppose you. That’s being inconsistent; to paraphrase your own words, anyone who starts sling words like that around has already lost the argument.

Linky or stinky!

We’re not going to do your homework for you. This story is all over the news today, and Google is your friend.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Linky or stinky!

“Linky or stinky”??? Now there’s an aesthetically unattractive expression!

I assume it means “post a link or be disparaged”. Well, assuming that to be the meaning, here’s one. Of course, at that time, only two helicopters had been shot down.

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-slavyansk-prorussian-rebels-shoot-down-two-helicopters-as-kiev-forces-launch-military-operation-9314374.html

 

[josie_L]

Yes, weeks ago the Russian Parliament unanimously approved the use of force against the unconstitutional, Berkut-murdering regime in Kiev.

Yes, the Russian parliament that bastion of all that is good and wholesome (please note the sarcasm), approving the use of force against a government that won’t kowtow to them. The horror!!!

P.S. I pray that government doesn’t bestow it’s “good” intentions elsewhere.