Ukraine (cont.)

[HansTrappist]

Are you claiming that Victor Yanukovych didn’t start the violence, i.e., by ordering the Berkut to disperse/intimidate protestors who purposely aimed and shot their bullets at the eyes and throats of protestors, killing many in the process?? Are you suggesting that the CONSTITUTIONALLY ELECTED president had the right to do this??? Are YOU???

You have not one shred of credible, independent evidence that Victor Yanukovych initiated the violence.

In fact, the video evidence available on Youtube makes it crystal clear that the Berkut TOLERATED all kinds of violence against THEMSELVES (molotov cocktails, clubs and finally bullets) before they were forced to respond in kind. If the violence that occurred against the Berkut had occurred against American Police officers, the Maidan would have been shot dead on the spot and you know it!

Victor Yanukovych’s family and his life was threatened by the same thugs that were out in the streets murdering the Berkut. This violence escalated when it became clear that the February 21st Agreement would force all sides to the table, weapons would have to be handed over, and elections would take place. The Maidan would have none of that and it was at this point that they threatened Yanukovych’s life and the life of his family and he was forced to flee, thus ensuring that the February 21st agreement would not be enforced. I suggest that you read this agreement, which was signed by the Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Poland and the Special Representative of the President of the Russian Federation: theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/agreement-on-the-settlement-of-crisis-in-ukraine-full-text

I don’t see how you can claim that the current government is out for blood, when they’re response to a Russian invasion/incursions into Ukrainian territory has been restrained to say the least.

Nope, you got the timeline backwards. Let’s put it into the proper context:

1. Russia was in Ukraine long before the events of Maidan. Russia leased bases in Ukraine and had tens of thousands of Russian marines inside Ukraine long before the Maidan.
2. Victor Yanukovych signed an agreement with Russia in which Ukriane would scrap European Gas for heavily discounted Russian Gas.
3. The West could not accept this deal and so sent Victorian Nuland, John McCain, Catherine Ashton and others to Kiev in order to drum up support for the Maidan. This article documents the deal with the devil the West made in Ukraine: salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/
4. Victor Yanukovych had his life and the life of his family threatened by the Maidan thugs and was forced to flee before the implementation of the February 21st Agreement. His major tactical mistake was not crushing the violent Maidan thugs earlier. Of course, he was not up against ordinary, peaceful protesters but rather highly trained and violent militias who had been given pledges of Western support, thugs who had no problem murdering the Berkut security officers.
5. Once Victor Yanukovych was illegally and violently deposed, and only then, was Russia forced to act to protect her national security interests in the region. Had the February 21st Agreement been implemented, Russia would NEVER have been forced to act and the Crimean referendum would NEVER have happened.

 

[josie_L]

MODERATOR WARNING

If members do not stop uncharitably discussing this topic and do not stop insulting each other, I am going to start suspending members.

Calm down! Before you make me upset (and you don’t want to do that.)

Aye, Capitan!

 

[HansTrappist]

Keep saying that’s it’s nonsense, when anyone with a PAIR OF EYEBALLS can see that’s exactly what’s happening.

I have eyeballs (they are getting old I will admit) and yet I have yet to see the Russian military attack a Ukrainian civilian when, as I write this, the Ukrainian military has orders (from an illegitimate regime in Kiev) to mobilize against the ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians (whom they refer to as “terrorists”) in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

 

[Tomdstone]

As far as he’s concerned, the West has deliberately contrived to antagonise Russian ever since the wall came down, beginning with Clinton.

This is true and the root of the problems we are seeing today. The west is intent on reviving the Cold War with Russia.

 

[HansTrappist]

Well, but I think it has been alive and well in certain circles ever since. There were always Soviet apologists in the west. Fortunately, at least in the U.S., few paid attention to them. Some simply do not like the west or its ways; capitalism, freedom. It’s untidy. People say things we don’t like hearing. People make money when we don’t think they should.

I’m sure you have seen many an old Soviet (or European communist) poster, with the well-muscled workers in their overalls wending their way happily to the smoke-belching factory for the sake of their daily borcht or pain de ce jour. Orderly. Tidy. Everybody knows his place.

Trouble is, the reality of it was an ever-spreading concatenation of layabouts and rascals.

Putin isn’t a “communist” in the sense of the term people think of it, since, being a multi-billionaire in a threadbare country, he manifestly doesn’t believe in sharing the wealth. But then, neither did the “communists” of the Soviet era. I almost feel like apologizing to one of your background for the following assertion, but from Lenin on, the real meaning of “communism” was “absolute rule by a privileged elite”, and not much else. That’s what we have in Russia as we speak.

The Soviet Union has been dead since 1993, when Boris Yeltsin had Russian tanks open fire on the Russian Parliament where the last remnant of actual Soviets and Bolsheviks were making their last stand: youtube.com/watch?v=tQe2HlmMx6s

 

[josie_L]

You have not one shred of credible, independent evidence that Victor Yanukovych initiated the violence.

Yes, I have many reports (including our own Church in the Ukraine) that state Yanukovych initiated the violence, that you refuse to believe them is not my problem.

Yanukovych stoking confusion

President Yanukovych even seems to be losing support within his own party. Although he has denied having anything to do with the police violence against the demonstrators, many allied parliamentarians appear not to believe him and have announced their departure from the party. The head of the presidential office is believed to be among them.

The situation is becoming increasingly chaotic. “Reports are coming in thick and fast at the moment, and we don’t have precise information,” Umland told DW, “but the government seems to be in a state of panic.”

It has been confirmed that the head of the Kyiv police has taken responsibility for the violence and stepped down. However, Umland said Yanukovych used him as a scapegoat. “The police force in Ukraine is not autonomous, as it is in South America, for example,” he said. Umland believes that the president initiated the violent police action.

dw.de/police-violence-in-ukraine-strengthens-opposition/a-17264818

This was reported on the 1st of December 2013.

In fact, the video evidence available on Youtube makes it crystal clear that the Berkut TOLERATED all kinds of violence against THEMSELVES (molotov cocktails, clubs and finally bullets) before they were forced to respond in kind. If the violence that occurred against the Berkut had occurred against American Police officers, the Maidan would have been shot dead on the spot and you know it!

Youtube videos can be edited and don’t always show the whole picture (especially not in chronological order), i.e., people record what they want to record, that being said, I never claimed that the Maidan protestors didn’t resort to violence, I am saying that they didn’t initiate it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have eyeballs (they are getting old I will admit) and yet I have yet to see the Russian military attack a Ukrainian civilian when, as I write this, the Ukrainian military has orders (from an illegitimate regime in Kiev) to mobilize against the ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians (whom they refer to as “terrorists”) in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

No state can long tolerate rebellions inside its territory. No state can long tolerate rebels seizing public buildings and ousting the officials there. No state can long tolerate their officials being shot.

Russian agents shot down three Ukrainian helicopters that had every right to be in their own country. In the process, some were killed, including medical personnel in one of the helicopters.

And again, how is the Ukrainian government illigitimate when its parliament (including members of Yanukovych’s own party) appointed the interim executive? What did you want them to do other than simply be supine in the face of Yanukovych and Putin? At some point, elected parliaments have to act in forming a government; something parliamentary systems always have a right to do.

Russia seized Crimea and made it part of Russia. That’s a fact. Russians are in eastern Ukraine taking over government buildings and ousting government officials. That’s a fact. Russians shot the mayor of one town and shot down three helicopters.

As you said yourself, Putin is “authorized” (by the Russian Duma?) to chastize the Kiev government; to punish it. What does that mean? They are in Kiev. So is he “authorized” to take Kiev to punish them?

 

[DaveBj]

Then welcome to the Twilight Zone as you so aptly put it!!

P.S. I don’t know what NSA and USAF stand for, I’m Canadian!!

Sorry. USAF = United States Air Force, and NSA = National Security Agency (I retired before all the stuff started happening that’s had them in the news over the past year).

Well, but I think it has been alive and well in certain circles ever since. There were always Soviet apologists in the west. Fortunately, at least in the U.S., few paid attention to them. Some simply do not like the west or its ways; capitalism, freedom. It’s untidy. People say things we don’t like hearing. People make money when we don’t think they should.

I’m sure you have seen many an old Soviet (or European communist) poster, with the well-muscled workers in their overalls wending their way happily to the smoke-belching factory for the sake of their daily borcht or pain de ce jour. Orderly. Tidy. Everybody knows his place.

Trouble is, the reality of it was an ever-spreading concatenation of layabouts and rascals.

Putin isn’t a “communist” in the sense of the term people think of it, since, being a multi-billionaire in a threadbare country, he manifestly doesn’t believe in sharing the wealth. But then, neither did the “communists” of the Soviet era. I almost feel like apologizing to one of your background for the following assertion, but from Lenin on, the real meaning of “communism” was “absolute rule by a privileged elite”, and not much else. That’s what we have in Russia as we speak.

You should have heard some of the stories that I got from recent emigres. The means of government in Moscow then was by oligarchy, and it still is.

So, in other words, the assertion that Putin had the helicopter shot down is nothing more than a bunch of undocumented propaganda.

Well, SOMEBODY, with military training and weapons that are not available to your ordinary Russky-in-the-street, was successfully firing on Ukrainian helicopters. If it wasn’t somebody under Putin’s orders (or at least with his approval), then we have descended further into the Twilight Zone.

 

[josie_L]

I have eyeballs (they are getting old I will admit) and yet I have yet to see the Russian military attack a Ukrainian civilian when, as I write this, the Ukrainian military has orders (from an illegitimate regime in Kiev) to mobilize against the ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians (whom they refer to as “terrorists”) in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

They have indeed attacked Ukrainian civilians (especially those who disagree with them, i.e., bodies of prominent pro-Ukrainians have been found in forests, lakes and ditches with signs of torture), and they are also aiding and abetting the separatists (a minority) who wouldn’t have a leg to stand on were it not for Russian support. They are simply a means to an end in handing over Ukrainian territory to Russia, as in Crimea.

These are acts of aggression that cannot be ignored by the Ukrainian government who knows full well who’s behind the mayhem, i.e., Russia.

Don’t believe it now, you’ll believe it later. It’s just a matter of time, just like with Hitler.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think when the magnitude of the tragedy in Odessa sinks in within a day or two, we’re going to see a stronger and more united Russian separatist movement, and a weaker and more uncertain government in Kiev.

 

[HansTrappist]

No state can long tolerate rebellions inside its territory. No state can long tolerate rebels seizing public buildings and ousting the officials there. No state can long tolerate their officials being shot.

A legitimate “State” needs a legitimate and democratically-elected ruler. That doesn’t currently exist in Ukraine.

Russian agents shot down three Ukrainian helicopters that had every right to be in their own country. In the process, some were killed, including medical personnel in one of the helicopters.

No, you don’t *know *that Russian “agents” shot down the helicopter.

Where is your proof? Because they shot down a helicpoter? How did they shoot it down? With what did they shoot it down? You have some explaining to do Ridgerunner before you jump to the convenient conclusion.

Perhaps the Ukrainian separatists are as proficient at defending their territory as the American separatists were at defeating the British.

And again, how is the Ukrainian government illigitimate when its parliament (including members of Yanukovych’s own party) appointed the interim executive? What did you want them to do other than simply be supine in the face of Yanukovych and Putin? At some point, elected parliaments have to act in forming a government; something parliamentary systems always have a right to do.

I refuse to ignore the chain of events that led to Yanukovych’s violent and unconstitutional removal.

You continue to rewrite the history of what happened and continue to defend the illegitimate and violent regime in Kiev whilst in the same breath demonizing Putin and Yanukovych.

Russia seized Crimea and made it part of Russia. That’s a fact. Russians are in eastern Ukraine taking over government buildings and ousting government officials. That’s a fact.

Nope.

Crimeans VOTED to join Russia due to the fact that the violent and illegitimate regime in Kiev was threatening to ban the Russian language and engage in other acts of aggression against ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Ukraine is currently like the Wild West, the Maidan are the bad guys and Russia is John Wayne, there to make sure things don’t get out of hand.

The Russian marines in Crimea were there legally long before the Crimean referendum. Strange, but I don’t recall you objecting to their presence there over all these years prior.

As you said yourself, Putin is “authorized” (by the Russian Duma?) to chastize the Kiev government; to punish it. What does that mean? They are in Kiev. So is he “authorized” to take Kiev to punish them?

Yes, Russia is authorized to use lethal force against the criminal regime in Kiev, should the lives of ethnic Russian Ukrainians as well as Russian citizens living in Ukraine become increasingly threatened.

After the events of today, where 38 pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists were burned alive by Maidan thugs, I think the chances of an invasion just went up exponentially.

 

[DaveBj]

I think when the magnitude of the tragedy in Odessa sinks in within a day or two, we’re going to see a stronger and more united Russian separatist movement, and a weaker and more uncertain government in Kiev.

Quite likely. They could find proof that the cause of the fire was a discarded cigarette, and one of the sides will still be proclaiming to the skies that the other side started. As for me, I’m just waiting for more information.

 

[HansTrappist]

I think when the magnitude of the tragedy in Odessa sinks in within a day or two, we’re going to see a stronger and more united Russian separatist movement, and a weaker and more uncertain government in Kiev.

Yep, my sentiment exactly!

I am actually surprised that Russia has been patiently waiting on the sidelines for so long. It is almost like they know the West wants them to invade and are refusing to take the bait. It is just sad that so many innocent ethnic Russian Ukrainians are being murdered as bait.

 

[josie_L]

Victor Yanukovych’s family and his life was threatened by the same thugs that were out in the streets murdering the Berkut. This violence escalated when it became clear that the February 21st Agreement would force all sides to the table, weapons would have to be handed over, and elections would take place. The Maidan would have none of that and it was at this point that they threatened Yanukovych’s life and the life of his family and he was forced to flee, thus ensuring that the February 21st agreement would not be enforced.

Where is your documentation, i.e., where are the threats that you refer to, moreover, he had signed the February 21st agreement, thus, why would the protestors threaten him, i.e., they got what they wanted. Yanukovych fled because when he handed back the powers of parliament which he TOOK away, his last means of protection was gone, i.e., he had no control over a government which he used in amassing tons of money for himself, his family and cronies at the expense of ordinary Ukrainians.

HE WAS A CROOK IN THE HIGHEST ORDER WHO DESERVED TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE (Nixon stepped down for less).

 

[HansTrappist]

They have indeed attacked Ukrainian civilians (especially those who disagree with them, i.e., bodies of prominent pro-Ukrainians have been found in forests, lakes and ditches with signs of torture), and they are also aiding and abetting the separatists (a minority) who wouldn’t have a leg to stand on were it not for Russian support. They are simply a means to an end in handing over Ukrainian territory to Russia, as in Crimea.

These are acts of aggression that cannot be ignored by the Ukrainian government who knows full well who’s behind the mayhem, i.e., Russia.

Don’t believe it now, you’ll believe it later. It’s just a matter of time, just like with Hitler.

There you go with Hitler again.

It is a sure sign that your arguments are fallacious.

 

[josie_L]

There you go with Hitler again.

It is a sure sign that your arguments are fallacious.

No, I’m just saying that just like there were those blinded by Hitler, there will be those blinded by Putin.

 

[Seamus_L]

RT has another breaking story of dozens killed and wounded in Kramatorsk. This sounds like an attempt to put out the fires of separatism by pouring gasoline on it.

 

[HansTrappist]

Where is your documentation, i.e., where are the threats that you refer to, moreover, he had signed the February 21st agreement, thus, why would the protestors threaten him, i.e., they got what they wanted. Yanukovych fled because when he handed back the powers of parliament which he TOOK away, his last means of protection was gone, i.e., he had no control over a government which he used in amassing tons of money for himself, his family and cronies at the expense of ordinary Ukrainians.

HE WAS A CROOK IN THE HIGHEST ORDER WHO DESERVED TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE (Nixon stepped down for less).

LOL!

If Yanukovcyh was a crook, what does that make Turchynov, Tymoshenko (a convicted crook), and Yatsenyuk?

The February 21st agreement was never implemented. Implementation would have meant the Maidan put down their arms and stop murdering Berkut and would have meant the Maidan would have to come to the Table like civilized human beings and negotiate a solution. Instead, they threatened the life of Yanukovych and his family, forced him to fleee, and unconstitutionally seized the reigns of power with many of the parliamentarians acting under the duress of a rifle barrel.

 

[HansTrappist]

RT has another breaking story of dozens killed and wounded in Kramatorsk. This sounds like an attempt to put out the fires of separatism by pouring gasoline on it.

And crickets from the Putin-is-to-blame crowd. Imagine that.

 

[HansTrappist]

No, I’m just saying that just like there were those blinded by Hitler, there will be those blinded by Putin.

So, in other words, you are comparing Putin to Hitler.

That’s an insult to those of us who had relatives die under Hitler and it is an insult to history.