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latin_rite
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Not very reliable sources are they? You tube and a pro west newspaper. Maybe in an attempt to hide their bias they should stop calling any citizen who doesn’t support the regime terrorist.
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josie_L
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Well, I don’t know what you would like to call them, but they are insurgents (which is what the Daily Beast refers to them in the article KyivAndrew cited/linked) backed by Russian military might, with the intent to take Ukrainian territory and subsume it into Russia.
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AnastasiaRomano
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My reading of that post (which was admittedly brief) was that there are many countries that have Slavic roots which are not Eastern Orthodox – I assume as a rebuttal to certain arguments that Russia has a responsibility to all Slavic countries because of their shared Eastern Orthodox faith.
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lerapt78
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What qualifies them as extremists, in your view?
No. I understand that as a Brit you may not be very familiar with the foreign policy objectives of our Founding Forefathers, but Ron Paul is more in line with the thinking of those men than are any of our other representatives, both Republican and Democrat.
Ron Paul is a non-interventionalist - which is not the same as an isolationist - and is therefore most in line with authentic American values on issues such as international organization membership.
Is it your opinion that the quest for ethnic Europeans to maintain dominance and control over their own lands is somehow. . . .immoral?
I figured the only reason the western governments were paying lip service to Ukrainian “nationalism” was because they knew darn well that if the Ukraine were to come under EU control, any true sense of ethnic autonomy would be swiftly crushed.
But with regard to withdrawing from the EU, didn’t Cameron himself also recently promise a referendum to address the issue? (Though I suspect in his case, it’s just talk to appease the growing Right)
Of course he isn’t. It’s amazing how labels like that can be thrown out and just accepted without requiring the least bit of actual evidence to support them.
Isn’t it funny though, that the neocons - the ones who were actually doing all the *real *rabbling and rousing I the middle east since 2001 - were making these claims?
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AnastasiaRomano
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Did anyone on this thread defend that? I didn’t see that at all. I did see prayers offered for all the deceased and a brief civilized discussion between two disagreeing posters about the likely ramifications of the fire.
I think we can all agree that setting fire to a building that contains people who don’t agree with you is heinous. Can we also agree that kidnapping, beating, and drowning people that don’t agree with you is also heinous? There have been some heinous actions in eastern Ukraine lately perpetrated by the pro-Russian side – and in Odessa yesterday by the pro-Ukrainian side (as well as by the pro-Russian side, though admittedly with a much smaller casualty count). As things across Ukraine appear to spin more out of control, let us pause our arguing for just a minute to pray for peace and justice in Ukraine.
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AnastasiaRomano
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One bright spot in today’s news: The team of international observers from OSCE who were kidnapped in Donetska Oblast have been released after the Russian government, Ukrainian government and OSCE all engaged in negotiations for their release. (Early on the separatists who kidnapped the observers said the hostages would not be released without instructions from “competent authorities of the RF,” though later they said that they were not under Moscow’s direction.) npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=309176141
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AnastasiaRomano
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As the Swedish foreign minister, Carl Bildt, put it:
“Ukrainian helicopters shoot down in Slovyansk. Some elderly ladies bought some RPG’s or missiles at the local grocery store, I assume.”
twitter.com/carlbildt/statuses/462152271955230720
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josie_L
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Yup, this is what I was saying about the situation in Crimea (those “insurgents” were too heavily armed/prepared), honestly, the separatists in the Eastern Ukraine (a minority) wouldn’t have a leg to stand on if it wasn’t for Russian military might backing them.
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Seamus_L
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Most of the 60 or so people killed yesterday were Russian separatists, the vast majority of whom were armed with nothing more than rocks, clubs, and some molotov cocktails.
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Tomdstone
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Or more recently, what about the pro-Maidan people and supporters of Mr.Bandera, who have called for the expulsion of all Russians and Jews from Ukraine?Isn’t it funny though, that the neocons - the ones who were actually doing all the *real *rabbling and rousing I the middle east since 2001 - were making these claims?
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Tomdstone
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This is an example of what the Russian speaking citizens of eastern Ukraine have to deal with. Why doesn’t the west care about their human rights?
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josie_L
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Tombstone, there has been antagonism building up in the Eastern Ukraine because Russia has spurred on separatist forces into terrorizing, and I mean literally terrorizing several cities in that region with the express purpose of annexing territory for Russia, and make no mistake, these areas will be subsumed into Russia if the Ukrainian government does not do something to quell the tide of separatism that is backed by Russian military might.
P.S. Much of the violence in Eastern Ukraine has been initiated by a minority group of separatists and not the other way around, nevertheless, I am saddened about what happened in Odessa.
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Tomdstone
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I don’t see why that justifies burning men, women and children civilians to death. This together with the calls from some in the pro-Maidan crowd to exterminate all Russian speaking Ukrainians and all Jews amounts to a war against humanity. Who will step up to support these Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens from being massacred?
rt.com/news/156592-odessa-activists-burnt-alive/
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HansTrappist
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Regarding the tragic events in Odessa, where dozens of unarmed pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists were burned alive by Maidan thugs, President Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said:
“The justification of the punitive operation by those who only a few months ago would not let the legitimate president, Viktor Yanukovych, restore order using legal means, are the highest manifestation of cynicism.”
He added:
“The authorities in Kiev are not only directly responsible, they are direct accomplices in these criminal actions. Their hands are full of blood.”
Those who describe “Kiev’s junta as legitimate” are also accomplices of crimes that took place in Odessa, Dmitry Peskov said.
voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_03/Russia-deeply-regrets-Wests-approval-of-punitive-opeartion-in-Southeast-Ukraine-Putins-spokesman-8436/
en.itar-tass.com/world/730317
“The justification of the punitive operation by those who only a few months ago would not let the legitimate president, Viktor Yanukovych, restore order using legal means, are the highest manifestation of cynicism.”
He added:
“The authorities in Kiev are not only directly responsible, they are direct accomplices in these criminal actions. Their hands are full of blood.”
Those who describe “Kiev’s junta as legitimate” are also accomplices of crimes that took place in Odessa, Dmitry Peskov said.
voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_03/Russia-deeply-regrets-Wests-approval-of-punitive-opeartion-in-Southeast-Ukraine-Putins-spokesman-8436/
en.itar-tass.com/world/730317
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HansTrappist
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I am going to be charitable, give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you are simply mistaken.
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DaveBj
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Sounds like preparations for a real peaceful demonstration
We don’t actually know yet how the building caught fire, do we? And we may never know. But until we know otherwise, we must allow for the possibility that the separatists set it on fire themselves, by accidentally mis-handling their own deadly weapons.
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Seamus_L
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Well, no big surprise, the police in Odessa are blaming the Russian separatists for the tragic fire yesterday kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
The anti-Euromaidan resistance doesn't need propoganda campaigns now, because the acting government in Kiev is really stirring things up for them.
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AnastasiaRomano
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There are several videos on YouTube that show Molotov cocktails being thrown both by the pro-Russian side occupying the trade union building and by the pro-Ukrainian side attacking the building. With both sides using incendiary devices, it is likely to be very hard to sort out which incendiary device started the fire. I certainly don’t know, since I wasn’t there. And I’m not sure anyone in Ukraine or Russia is objective enough right now to sort out what really happened. (Independent investigations are a fine idea, but who is really independent enough to do the investigation?)Sounds like preparations for a real peaceful demonstration
We don’t actually know yet how the building caught fire, do we? And we may never know. But until we know otherwise, we must allow for the possibility that the separatists set it on fire themselves, by accidentally mis-handling their own deadly weapons.
Prayers for the repose of the souls of all those – whether Ukrainian, Russian, or Transnistrian citizens – who lost their lives yesterday on all sides.
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Seamus_L
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Ron Paul on the situation in Ukraine ronpaulchannel.com/ron-responds-ukrainian-assault-launched-pro-russian-forces/
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josie_L
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No, it’s not a mistake, Russia is not only aiding and abetting separatists to commit evil acts, they are explicitly involved in beating and torturing and killing, and kidnapping Ukrainian citizens that get in their way, I think that qualifies as terrorizing, especially being that the territories they are taking over will end up being subsumed into Russia.
P.S. You are still my brother in Christ regardless of our different political views.
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