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Seamus_L
Guest
German Newspaper Says CIA And FBI Active In Ukraine themoscowtimes.com/news/article/german-newspaper-says-cia-and-fbi-active-in-ukraine/499362.html
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DaveBj
Guest
Interim head of Ukraine is respected Baptist Pastor.
Even his enemies for all last biography could not say a bad word about him.
If you want to hear my personal opinion - I personally would like to vote for a man like this pastor remained head of my country, but Ukraine is facing elections.
May God bless the long-suffering people of Ukraine to build the future on the principles of freedom, justice and rights.
It’s not like he put himself on the throne for life; he’s an interem chief of government only. Cut the guy some slack. New elections are less than two weeks away.Victoria Nuland may like him, but was there a free, open and democratic election where the people of Ukraine voted for him as President, or did the people of Ukraine vote for Yanukovich as President?
With regard to Yanukovich, I was unable (after searching only a few minutes) to find what his campaign promises were. I was looking to see if perhaps he had campaigned on unity with Europe, and had then lost the Ukrainian “street” when he backed out of the EU deal.
However, I did find that his support was not exactly overwhelming. He got slightly over 1/3 of the vote in the original election, and even in the runoff (against Yulia Tymoshenko) he got less that 50%. I did find it interesting that the parts of the country that had the highest pro-Yanu vote were also the parts with the highest Russian population. I’m not saying that there is a causal connection, but it is . . . interesting.
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanukovich
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josie_L
Guest
Because many of the insurgents who started the violence in Odessa and those that were killed in the fire were actually Russians, i.e., if you want peace in the Ukraine then at least acknowledge the presence of outside forces attempting to destroy that peace.I believe that this is an extremely uncharitable and unchristian attitude. The idea of burning people alive or calling for the extermination of Russians and Jews is contrary to Christian principles, whether you be Catholic or Orthodox. Why not let the Russian speaking people of Ukraine live in peace?
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josie_L
Guest
I find it very interesting that the “prime minister” of the “People’s Republic” in Donetsk had this to say:
The incidents on Friday, particularly in Odessa where 31 pro-Russian protesters were burnt to death inside a public building, could provide the pretext for a Russian advance into eastern Ukraine. The Kremlin would argue that its soldiers are needed to restore peace and to protect ethnic Russians.
In Donetsk, the pro-Moscow leaders of a self-proclaimed “People’s Republic” have already urged the deployment of Russian troops as “peacekeepers”.
On Saturday, they voiced outrage over the bloodshed in Odessa. Denis Pushilin, the self-styled “prime minister”, said it was unimaginable that such killings could have occurred on “our land, on Russian land”.
For those of you unconvinced that these areas being captured are not going to be annexed by Russia, well. . . . . . . .
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josie_L
Guest
Is this an attempt at sarcasm, unbelievable??That’s right. During the Maidan protests Russia snuck in tens of thousands of KGB agents to masquerade as Ukrainians and suddenly overnight places like Odessa, Crimea and the Eastern Ukrainian regions became anti-EU integration and anti-NATO.
Now the real Ukrainians have awoken to this diabolical Russian/USSR subterfuge and are now rightly burning these people alive and unleashing their army against them - and exposing no shortage of secret KGB agents even in the ranks of their armed forces in the process. These fake Ukrainians too shall be bombed and burned alive for the crime of terrorism!
“Glory to Ukraine!”
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Hobbes42
Guest
I saw the same…
Better watch out, there shall be much yelling about how evil RT is, despite the fact that it is a video which doesn’t lend itself easily to lies.
Better watch out, there shall be much yelling about how evil RT is, despite the fact that it is a video which doesn’t lend itself easily to lies.
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DaveBj
Guest
snip
Now the real Ukrainians have awoken to this diabolical Russian/USSR subterfuge and are now rightly burning these people alive and unleashing their army against them - and exposing no shortage of secret KGB agents even in the ranks of their armed forces in the process. These fake Ukrainians too shall be bombed and burned alive for the crime of terrorism!
“Glory to Ukraine!”
josie L;11961668:
Methinks someone ought to consider changing his/her user name. False advertising, maybe?Is this an attempt at sarcasm, unbelievable??
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josie_L
Guest
And this is horrible, but recollect that the violence was initiated by anti-Kyiv separatists attempting to hurt and terrorize a peaceful pro-Ukrainian demonstration, i.e., the separatists (many of whom were actually Russians) were armed with guns, knives, clubs, Molotov cocktails, stun grenades and the like. The fact that things did not end well for the separatists was as a result of their own foolish actions, i.e., for the first time since these uprisings/insurgencies the separatists were met with resistance and violent retribution.rt.com/news/156664-odessa-fire-radicals-shoot/
“Another video of the same man shows him speaking on the phone passionately arguing that he and his people are unarmed, while having to confront armed anti-government protesters. The man introduces himself as sotnik Mykola (“sotnik” is what Maidan group leaders in Kiev call themselves) He also says he was wounded in the leg by protesters, although he doesn’t look hurt in the footage.”
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josie_L
Guest
Methinks he’s going to get suspended.Methinks someone ought to consider changing his/her user name. False advertising, maybe?
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josie_L
Guest
It’s also very interesting to note that the members of the last government, were composed mainly of members who hailed from Southern and Eastern Ukraine, i.e., 75% hailed from this region, moreover, 40% were actually from Donetsk, the same region which Yanukovych called home.It’s not like he put himself on the throne for life; he’s an interem chief of government only. Cut the guy some slack. New elections are less than two weeks away.
With regard to Yanukovich, I was unable (after searching only a few minutes) to find what his campaign promises were. I was looking to see if perhaps he had campaigned on unity with Europe, and had then lost the Ukrainian “street” when he backed out of the EU deal.
However, I did find that his support was not exactly overwhelming. He got slightly over 1/3 of the vote in the original election, and even in the runoff (against Yulia Tymoshenko) he got less that 50%. I did find it interesting that the parts of the country that had the highest pro-Yanu vote were also the parts with the highest Russian population. I’m not saying that there is a causal connection, but it is . . . interesting.
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanukovich
P.S. I also find it interesting that:
thinkingfaith.org/articles/20140313_1.htm#.U2agBJUU_IVReligious sensibility is at the heart of Ukrainian culture. Holy days are often national holidays. On holy days, hundreds stand in attendance outside of crowded churches. All of the religions and Christian confessions, with the exception of the Moscow Patriarchate which is associated with Yanukovich, were present on the maidan. On the day of the very first massive gathering, Cardinal Husar, the most respected religious figure in the country, was asked to address the crowd. Representatives of other denominations spoke in turn.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
For all those who believe anything that RT promulgates, I happen to have a bridge going from Manhattan to Brooklyn for sale.
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HansTrappist
Guest
Right Sector and other pro-Fascist extremists were responsible for burning alive those pro-Russian Ukrainian protesters in Odessa. Funny, how when pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists are being tortured and murdered there is crickets from the anti-Putin crowd. There was also silence from the anti-Putin crowd when the Berkut were being murdered in the streets of Kiev. Also crickets for the fact that the Ukrainian military, acting under the orders of the criminal and illegitimate regime in Kiev, is currently engaged in a military operation against its own citizens.Because many of the insurgents who started the violence in Odessa and those that were killed in the fire were actually Russians, i.e., if you want peace in the Ukraine then at least acknowledge the presence of outside forces attempting to destroy that peace.
If the violence continues from the criminal regime in Kiev, Putin will have no choice but to invade and restore law and order and restore the legitimate ruler of Ukraine - Yanukovych - to his seat of power. Those that will criticize the coming invasion as breach of sovereign territory need to be reminded that there is not currently a legitimate government in Kiev and the one that the West has installed there is currently butchering ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Russia has correctly noted that the West is responsible for the bloodshed in Ukraine, so the chances of this becoming a major war between the West and Russia.
Elections have consequences.
K
KyrieEleison17
Guest
Unnervingly the new regime in Kiev has been doing a fine job belittling and discrediting Ukraine’s army -and aiding in demoralizing them to boot- in the already deeply regrettable and undesirable situation they find themselves in. By effectively disavowing Ukraine’s army the new government is gifting itself a pretext to create a new “national” force that will be more ready and willing to engage in the cannibalization of the Ukraine.
We are noticing a lot of brand spanking new “armies” popping up left, right and centre in the Ukraine (a new “National Guard” in the west and plenty little “self-defense forces” in the south and east). This is exactly what happened in Yugoslavia.
Now Ukrainians and Russians witnessed Yugoslavia with great horror and regret. These new “armies”, therefore, will have to agitate and provoke fiercely in order to dislodge the distastefulness they must presently produce in the Ukrainian’s (as it were) mouth. This is something that people of goodwill the world over cannot allow. Hence we must insist on de-escalation, disarmament, a cease to all violence and a return to impartial and authentic law and order to prosecute violators, regardless of the “side” they claim to represent. All such activity is meant and aimed at provoking tensions to provide excuses for escalations and could result in open civil war, with the majority of Ukrainians unhappily caught in the middle of it and having to watch the horrifying spectacle of their homeland and country cannibalizing itself.
Notice also that the Ukrainian army alone has so far shown (as their Berkut counterparts also displayed) a total unwillingness to kill their own people - especially civilians. A nation’s army and a federal police service will naturally be more likely to reflect the feelings, sentiments and beliefs of the majority of the population and also be staples of actual cultural and national tradition. If you want to radicalize a population and revolutionize its self-understanding then disbanding or otherwise neutralizing these forces would be of high priority and importance.
Now if Russia is eager for Ukrainians in the south and east to understand themselves as being simply Russian, then such a move is just as congenial for Russia’s interests as it would be for the new government’s, who obviously want to go through a process of “Ukrainization” and have the population understand themselves according to their preferred terms and identity. Both sides have temptations to indulge in national myth making and historical revisionism. The international community must avoid the temptation to see Ukraine as a pie that it can cut up to serve for dinner.
**People who are cheerleading for one side or the other are in effect stoking the fires for war, whether they realize it or not. ** I admit have been guilty of this too but it has to stop or else innocent people will die.
We are noticing a lot of brand spanking new “armies” popping up left, right and centre in the Ukraine (a new “National Guard” in the west and plenty little “self-defense forces” in the south and east). This is exactly what happened in Yugoslavia.
Now Ukrainians and Russians witnessed Yugoslavia with great horror and regret. These new “armies”, therefore, will have to agitate and provoke fiercely in order to dislodge the distastefulness they must presently produce in the Ukrainian’s (as it were) mouth. This is something that people of goodwill the world over cannot allow. Hence we must insist on de-escalation, disarmament, a cease to all violence and a return to impartial and authentic law and order to prosecute violators, regardless of the “side” they claim to represent. All such activity is meant and aimed at provoking tensions to provide excuses for escalations and could result in open civil war, with the majority of Ukrainians unhappily caught in the middle of it and having to watch the horrifying spectacle of their homeland and country cannibalizing itself.
Notice also that the Ukrainian army alone has so far shown (as their Berkut counterparts also displayed) a total unwillingness to kill their own people - especially civilians. A nation’s army and a federal police service will naturally be more likely to reflect the feelings, sentiments and beliefs of the majority of the population and also be staples of actual cultural and national tradition. If you want to radicalize a population and revolutionize its self-understanding then disbanding or otherwise neutralizing these forces would be of high priority and importance.
Now if Russia is eager for Ukrainians in the south and east to understand themselves as being simply Russian, then such a move is just as congenial for Russia’s interests as it would be for the new government’s, who obviously want to go through a process of “Ukrainization” and have the population understand themselves according to their preferred terms and identity. Both sides have temptations to indulge in national myth making and historical revisionism. The international community must avoid the temptation to see Ukraine as a pie that it can cut up to serve for dinner.
**People who are cheerleading for one side or the other are in effect stoking the fires for war, whether they realize it or not. ** I admit have been guilty of this too but it has to stop or else innocent people will die.
K
KyrieEleison17
Guest
Please don’t try to justify or otherwise rationalize their actions. They trapped those people in a building then set it on fire and brutally assaulted anyone who tried to escape. That is a massacre and the new Kiev regime -if it wants any claim to respectability- must prosecute those who are responsible. They are in fact totally obliged by their own international agreements to do so.And this is horrible, but recollect that the violence was initiated by anti-Kyiv separatists attempting to hurt and terrorize a peaceful pro-Ukrainian demonstration, i.e.,
There are so many things wrong with this statement that I don’t even know where to begin.the separatists (many of whom were actually Russians)
Firstly, please don’t imbibe our modern politicians’ horrid habit of slandering and accusing and refusing to supply any proof or evidence that could warrant it.
Secondly, assuming its a fact that they were Russians - even if they were Russian citizens properly speaking and only guests masquerading as Ukrainians - this does not justify burning them alive, otherwise known as murder. This was a lynching by a mob. The people who engaged in it are criminals. Period.
Thirdly, they may well have all been Russian as many Ukrainians are simply Russian by ethnicity.
And so was the mob that killed them.were armed with guns, knives, clubs, Molotov cocktails, stun grenades and the like.
At least they got to leave with their lives. The men in that building did not.
Now even if it was true that each and every single one of them was in fact armed and moreover engaging in violent crimes and mischief, this would not justify a mob’s trapping them into a building then proceeding to burn them alive. In real democracies we try people in a properly constituted court of law for their crimes before passing sentence even if they are guilty of wrongdoing beyond any doubt.
Attacking a city with an army would count as resistance and violent retribution.The fact that things did not end well for the separatists was as a result of their own foolish actions, i.e., for the first time since these uprisings/insurgencies the separatists were met with resistance and violent retribution.
Finally, it is not for us to judge. This mob committed a horrific and disgusting crime, pure and simple. They made themselves judge, jury and executioner - and picked a particularly nasty form of punishment: burning their enemies alive.
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KyrieEleison17
Guest
You may wish to brush up on what the Catechism teaches about slander.For all those who believe anything that RT promulgates, I happen to have a bridge going from Manhattan to Brooklyn for sale.
You may also wish to learn what an ad hominen fallacy is. That way next time you may not so readily provide a textbook case of it. If you’ve never heard of an ad hominen before, then perhaps you’ve heard the expression, “Don’t shoot the messenger”?
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josie_L
Guest
Hans your condemnation of the ANTI-Putin crowd is very, very mistaken, i.e., all of us have condemned the actions, Kyiv Andrew, Anastasia, Dave, Anastily, myself . . . etc., however, let’s be honest, the violence was initiated by the pro-Russian Ukrainian protestors in Odessa (many of whom were actually Russian), here’s what ensued:Right Sector and other pro-Fascist extremists were responsible for burning alive those pro-Russian Ukrainian protesters in Odessa. Funny, how when pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists are being tortured and murdered there is crickets from the anti-Putin crowd. There was also silence from the anti-Putin crowd when the Berkut were being murdered in the streets of Kiev. Also crickets for the fact that the Ukrainian military, acting under the orders of the criminal and illegitimate regime in Kiev, is currently engaged in a military operation against its own citizens.
On the night of May 2, the football teams Chernomorets (Odessa) and Metallist (Kharkiv) played in Odessa. After the EuroMaidan protests started in November, Ukrainian football fans started the game-day tradition of peacefully marching in support of Ukraine’s unity as a nation. A planned march took place in Odessa on May 2 at 3 p.m.
In the last five months, Odessa has also seen opposing political rallies. One took place on May 1, when AntiMaidan activists and left-wing parties took part in a peaceful march.
The next day, however, was different. AntiMaidan pages on the Russian-controlled Vkontakte social network shared calls to forcefully stop the pro-Ukrainian march and gather at Oleksanrivkiy Avenue, near the planned march.
**One of the pages called on their supporters in Odessa to “take after Donetsk,” a reference to the bloody attacks by Kremlin-backed, pro-Russian demonstrators on pro-Ukrainians on April 27. **
**Russian-backed attackers came armed, ready to attack **
One hour before the march, some 200 young men gathered in an agreed location.
They came ready to fight. They had guns, bats, knives and wore helmets and bulletproof vests. They behaved aggressively and began to dismantle the pavement to prepare rocks to throw at their opponents.
At the same time, some 1,000 football fans and supporters of Ukraine’s unity gathered at Sobornaya Square.
Only several dozen members of the Maidan Self-Defense Units, a paramilitary patriotic organization formed during EuroMaidan to support the revolution, were equipped to defend the crowd.
The atmosphere was positive in the square. Fans of the two teams from Odessa and Kharkiv sang the Ukrainian national anthem together, chanted patriotic slogans such as “Odessa, Kharkiv, Ukraine” and sang songs against Russian President Vladimir Putin.
kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/what-really-happened-in-odessa-a-step-by-step-reconstruction-of-a-tragedy-that-killed-46-people-video-346192.htmlWhen the fans gathered in a column and began marching to the stadium, the Self-Defense Unit members were informed about several hundred aggressive AntiMaidan supporters coming to the square from Hrecheska Street, to attack the column of peaceful demonstrators.
The violence was initiated by pro-Russian insurgents and culminated in some of them dying, i.e., this had nothing to do with the government in Kiev, moreover, that is exactly what Putin wants, i.e., the chance to invade the very country whose “citizens” he is aiding and abetting.If the violence continues from the criminal regime in Kiev, Putin will have no choice but to invade and restore law and order and restore the legitimate ruler of Ukraine - Yanukovych - to his seat of power.
You and your ilk can spout all day long that the government in Kiev is illegitimate or that it was installed by the West, but at the end of the day the majority of Ukrainians wanted to be part of the EU and/or supported the Maidan protestors.Those that will criticize the coming invasion as breach of sovereign territory need to be reminded that there is not currently a legitimate government in Kiev and the one that the West has installed there is currently butchering ethnic Russian Ukrainians.
Well, what else can I expect from a country that is being controlled by a lying, murdering, greedy megalomaniac who doesn’t care about world peace, i.e., they won’t blame their leader because he’ll put them in jail and torture them!!!Russia has correctly noted that the West is responsible for the bloodshed in Ukraine, so the chances of this becoming a major war between the West and Russia.
Putin is a bully of the highest order who is not willing to see an independent Ukraine free of Russian interference, it’s the only reason he wants Yanukovych back as ruler (whatever is left of the Ukraine to rule).Elections have consequences.
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HansTrappist
Guest
Great! So you are conceding that the current regime in Kiev stole power unconstitutionally and violently. Thanks for admitting that!Hans your condemnation of the ANTI-Putin crowd is very, very mistaken, i.e., all of us have condemned the actions, Kyiv Andrew, Anastasia, Dave, Anastily, myself . . . etc.
Let’s be honest, that is a bunch of pro-Maidan propaganda.…however, let’s be honest, the violence was initiated by the pro-Russian Ukrainian protestors in Odessa (many of whom were actually Russian), here’s what ensued:
kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/what-really-happened-in-odessa-a-step-by-step-reconstruction-of-a-tragedy-that-killed-46-people-video-346192.html
The violence was initiated by pro-Russian insurgents and culminated in some of them dying, i.e., this had nothing to do with the government in Kiev, moreover, that is exactly what Putin wants, i.e., the chance to invade the very country whose “citizens” he is aiding and abetting.
The Ukrainians burned alive in Odessa were murdered by Right Sector, pro-Maidan thugs and the video evidence is on the internet for the world to see:
youtube.com/watch?v=3BEpOT6_nOU
I’ll believe my own eyes before I believe pro-Maidan propaganda.
What a charitable thing to say, Josie.You and your ilk…
Your true colors are starting to emerge.
Not a shred of credible evidence to support that assertion.…but at the end of the day the majority of Ukrainians wanted to be part of the EU and/or supported the Maidan protestors.
Ordinary Ukrainians were not part of Maidan.
The muscle behind Maidan came from fascist, neo-Nazi, organizations like Right Sector with military experience and who had the full backing of Victorian Nuland, John McCain and Catherine Ashton. We also know that the snipers who fired on the Maidan were shooting from buildings controlled by the Maidan and that they killed their own members in a cynical attempt to blame it on Yanukovcych and the Berkut.
You have a slanderous, rather rabid hatred of Mr. Putin, one that is not based in factual reality. I feel sorry for you.Well, what else can I expect from a country that is being controlled by a lying, murdering, greedy megalomaniac who doesn’t care about world peace, i.e., they won’t blame their leader because he’ll put them in jail and torture them!!
Putin is a bully of the highest order who is not willing to see an independent Ukraine free of Russian interference, it’s the only reason he wants Yanukovych back as ruler (whatever is left of the Ukraine to rule).
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josie_L
Guest
I’m not justifying anything, but context is surely needed to explain the situation in Odessa, i.e., for more than a month now insurgents backed by Russia have been terrorizing parts of the Eastern Ukraine, the separatists in Odessa thought to continue that terrorism, as such they initiated the violence that was then reciprocated by the pro-Ukrainian side. These insurgents were carrying guns, grenades, clubs, knives and as such cannot be regarded as innocents per se, although I do not condone what was done to them, it was horrible.Please don’t try to justify or otherwise rationalize their actions.
From my understanding there those who saved people within the building:They trapped those people in a building then set it on fire and brutally assaulted anyone who tried to escape. That is a massacre and the new Kiev regime -if it wants any claim to respectability- must prosecute those who are responsible. They are in fact totally obliged by their own international agreements to do so.
**Pro-Russian crowd flees to Trade Unions building **
When the activists set the tents and stage on fire, Odessa Oblast council member Oleksiy Alba called on the pro-Russians in the camp to flee to the nearby Trades Union building.
The pro-Ukrainians attacked the building with rocks and Molotov cocktails, while the AntiMaidan supporters threw Molotov cocktails from the rooftop.
Several bottles of petrol bombs, thrown by activists outside, broke into the front entrance and the windows of the second and fourth floor, where the fire spread quickly.
The burning building trapped people inside. Eight of them died after jumping from the upper floors as they tried to escape from the fire. More than 20 people died of smoke inhalation alone.
**At the same time, pro-Ukrainian activists saved several dozen people from the rooms on the second and third floor. **
Firefighters slow to respond
Firefighters arrived an hour after the fire began.
kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/what-really-happened-in-odessa-a-step-by-step-reconstruction-of-a-tragedy-that-killed-46-people-video-346192.htmlMore than 100 people inside the building fled to the roof to safety. Police officers, who arrived after the fire was extinguished, took them outside and arrested them. Some football fans attempted to attack them, but were once again restrained by the pro-Ukrainian Self-Defense members.
There are so many things wrong with this statement that I don’t even know where to begin.
Firstly, please don’t imbibe our modern politicians’ horrid habit of slandering and accusing and refusing to supply any proof or evidence that could warrant it.
Secondly, assuming its a fact that they were Russians - even if they were Russian citizens properly speaking and only guests masquerading as Ukrainians - this does not justify burning them alive, otherwise known as murder. This was a lynching by a mob. The people who engaged in it are criminals. Period.
There is adequate proof of Russian involvement, i.e., many of the detainees arrested in Odessa were identified as Russian citizens and/or from Moldova by the police. And by the way, why were those detainees who were involved in rioting, terrorizing, and violence released from jail, i.e., where is the justice in that??? They were in part responsible in fomenting the horrible events that occurred in the Trade Union building.Thirdly, they may well have all been Russian as many Ukrainians are simply Russian by ethnicity.
I’ve already said I do not condone what was done, and I hope that justice is served, however, I’m afraid that I cannot help thinking that if you’re going to live by the sword then eventually you’re going to die by the sword.Now even if it was true that each and every single one of them was in fact armed and moreover engaging in violent crimes and mischief, this would not justify a mob’s trapping them into a building then proceeding to burn them alive. In real democracies we try people in a properly constituted court of law for their crimes before passing sentence even if they are guilty of wrongdoing beyond any doubt.
P.S. Surely BOTH sides will think twice about using violence, i.e., knowing that things can escalate.
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josie_L
Guest
Here let me read back your words:What a charitable thing to say, Josie.
Your true colors are starting to emerge.
So what do you think I meant by “you and your ilk”, i.e., if we are the anti-Putin crowd, then you are ipso facto the pro-Putin crowd, no???Right Sector and other pro-Fascist extremists were responsible for burning alive those pro-Russian Ukrainian protesters in Odessa.** Funny, how when pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists are being tortured and murdered there is crickets from the anti-Putin crowd. **There was also silence from the anti-Putin crowd when the Berkut were being murdered in the streets of Kiev. Also crickets for the fact that the Ukrainian military, acting under the orders of the criminal and illegitimate regime in Kiev, is currently engaged in a military operation against its own citizens
God bless you my brother in Christ!!
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Can you please give us concrete examples of where the news broadcast by RT has been shown to be false.For all those who believe anything that RT promulgates, I happen to have a bridge going from Manhattan to Brooklyn for sale.
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