Ukraine

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Somewhat escalating. I think ultimately the military will determine how this goes. I don’t get the impression they will be siding with the people?
 
Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) – A shaky truce crumbled Thursday as gunfire erupted at Independence Square, the center of anti-government protests and an increasingly violent crisis that has left dozens dead and hundreds injured in recent days. At least 100 people have died and 500 have been injured since Thursday morning, the head of the protesters’ medical service told CNN.
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Source: cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/europe/ukraine-protests/

Prayers for all involved! Any thoughts on the situation? Should US stay clear of this one entirely? Or perhaps limited involvement?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Somewhat escalating. I think ultimately the military will determine how this goes. I don’t get the impression they will be siding with the people?
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That is the big question.
Seems some of the units have gone with the people, but we need a Ukrainian speaker to tell us exactly what units these are.
Members of the military unit of the Interior Ministry in 1241 Ukraine will not prevent peaceful protests of citizens…
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“I am the commander of the military unit 1241 VV MVD Ukraine Lt. Col. Peter Y. Shulyak undertake in accordance with Art. Statute 36 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not give clearly criminal orders (orders) and assure that personnel will not perform parts clearly criminal orders (orders)” - said in a statement…
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Earlier it was reported that security forces Transcarpathia and Lviv announced the transition to the side of the people.
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espreso.tv/new/2014/02/20/odna_z_viyskovykh_chastyn_mvs_vidmovylasya_vykonuvaty_zlochynni_nakazy_vlady
 
Cojuanco said:
The problem is that a lot of posters here see Putin the Great Social Conservative, who is restricting abortion, fighting back against those who call for so-called ‘same sex marriage’, and other things that may very well be wonderful policies to support. They’re essentially buying Putin’s propaganda, in the hope that at least one state is powerful yet socially conservative. They seem to forget that Putin’s government is much less enamored of the Catholic populations in Russia and the near abroad, and seems to be on course to do to Ukraine’s Catholics what he does to those in Russia itself, through his stooge Yanukovych. But that’s OK, because he hates the abortionists and the same sex ‘marriage’ promoters, apparently. What’s the lives and religious practice of a few brother Catholics?:rolleyes:

I mean, at least with Catholics who supported Franco, it was somewhat understandable, as Catholics by and large were not persecuted by him, naturally. But Putin? Whose forces harass Holy Mother Church? And to see American Catholics, who should know better, shill for Moscow? Have you all gone mad?
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Maybe you can start posting articles about how Putin treats Catholics in Russia. I have never heard that it is problematic to be a Catholic in Russia as it is in Western and some muslim countries.

Putin is clearly the best world leader who stands up for fundamental (christian) values in society.
 
"Wir müssen erst einmal feststellen, wer wirklich für die Gewalt in Kiew verantwortlich ist", sagte der niederländische Außenminister Frans Timmermans. Es sei klar, dass Menschen von Regierungstruppen getötet worden seien. "Aber es ist auch klar, dass es auch auf Seiten der Opposition kleine radikale Gruppen gibt, die für exzessive Gewalt verantwortlich sind."

This is at least a fair statement from Holland’s Foreign Minister citing small extremist groups amongst the opposition responsible for violence. It would be interesting to see what sanctions the EU can impose on Ukraine or “those responsible for the violence” and how they would identify these individuals. I hear that’s not on the agenda today.

The US has issued visa restrictions on some individuals in Ukraine but they are refraining from publicly saying who they are. Strange.
 
kelvinf said:
By what means do they condemn the govt?
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You wanted the ‘EU’ to do some condemning and, since I don’t know how the ‘EU’ as an organization in and of itself does condemning, I was asking how they do it.

Simple as that.
 
Ukraine unrest: EU sanctions imposed

European Union foreign ministers have agreed to impose sanctions on Ukrainian officials “responsible for violence and excessive force”.
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt tweeted that asset freezes and travel bans would be adopted “as a matter of urgency”.
…
EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said the “prime responsibility” to get talks between the two sides under way lay with President Viktor Yanukovych.
Speaking after an emergency meeting of EU foreign minsters in Brussels, she said ministers had expressed their “dismay” at the latest violence and had agreed to “suspend export licences for equipment for internal repression”.
Implementation of the measures “will be taken forward in light of developments in Ukraine”, she added.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710
 
White House calls for Ukraine’s president to withdraw security forces

“We are outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people,” Carney said. “We urge President Yanukovych to immediately withdraw his security forces from downtown Kyiv and to respect the right of peaceful protest, and we urge protesters to express themselves peacefully.”

washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/02/20/white-house-calls-for-ukraines-president-to-withdraw-security-forces/
 
Kaninchen said:
You wanted the ‘EU’ to do some condemning and, since I don’t know how the ‘EU’ as an organization in and of itself does condemning, I was asking how they do it.

Simple as that.
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One way is through Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, for example:
EU condemns Beirut blast
EU condemns police violence during Turkey protests

And today:
Council conclusions on Ukraine
The European Union is appalled and deeply dismayed by the deteriorating situation in
Ukraine. No circumstances can justify the repression we are currently witnessing. We
condemn in the strongest terms all use of violence.
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kelvinf said:
Maybe you can start posting articles about how Putin treats Catholics in Russia. I have never heard that it is problematic to be a Catholic in Russia as it is in Western and some muslim countries.

Putin is clearly the best world leader who stands up for fundamental (christian) values in society.
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Yes, there is discrimination against Catholics in Russia, google it!
 
I think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill better call for a worldwide day of prayer and fasting for peace in Ukraine. One for Iraq wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
Heard the death toll is now 67 and only going to increase if this doesn't stop.
 
Seamus_L said:
I think Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill better call for a worldwide day of prayer and fasting for peace in Ukraine. One for Iraq wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
Code: 
                                   Heard the death toll is now 67 and only going to increase if this doesn't stop.
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This would be a good idea, I’ve also started a thread in the prayer intentions forum for the Ukraine, anyone willing to pray for peace in the Ukraine would be greatly appreciated (as opposed to wasting our time debating the politics of it all).
 
GraceSofia said:
One way is through Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, for example:
EU condemns Beirut blast
EU condemns police violence during Turkey protests

And today:
Council conclusions on Ukraine
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I realise that it’s a bit of a diversion from the OP but none of this actually explains how it’s done - which is what I was interested in. I’ve come across ‘EU moans about Israel again’ type headlines in the past but have never been bothered enough to dig deeper.
 
tomarin said:
Apparently the eastern part of Ukraine wants to be aligned with Russia and Putin, the western half wants to follow Europe’s lead and be a part of the EU. However from what I hear Ukraine’s President’s support is dwindling. My hope and prayer is that he steps down and the bloodshed ends.
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Yes, the Ukrainian people. Ethnic Ukrainians, who speak Ukrainian (and are mostly Greek Catholic/Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Orthodox-Kievan Patriarchate, or Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox) live in the West. The East is ethnically Russian.
 
BillyT926 said:
Yes, the Ukrainian people. Ethnic Ukrainians, who speak Ukrainian (and are mostly Greek Catholic/Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Orthodox-Kievan Patriarchate, or Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox) live in the West. The East is ethnically Russian.
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More than one Ukrainian has explained to me that the ethic Russians in Ukraine identify as Russians, not Ukrainians. There is apparently no love lost between the ethnic Russian segment and the ethnic Ukrainians.

One should worry about Ukraine, for that reason and for the further reason that Kiev was the ancient seat of what was then a single nation, to the extent nations existed at the time, and Russia has never forgotten it.

It is my understanding that Ukraine has the largest army in Europe, if Russia is not considered. Undoubtedly there are many who would not open fire on their own people. But it would not be hard in Ukraine to find Russian-oriented troops who would.
 
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