Ukraine

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Vouthon said:
A Sky News correspondent in Moscow has said that he witnessed both extensive anti-war and pro-war protests. The anti-war protesters were broken up by the police and many were beaten and arrested. The pro-war protesters had people dressed up in Soviet era WWII army outfits and were not broken up, in fact the police blocked traffic so as to allow them through.

Hilarious, were it not true.
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It is being reported that people were ordered by their bosses to attend the pro-invasion demonstration and that it only lasted 1 hour after which the streets were empty. Not sure what to make of that.
 
TRH1292 said:
Hmm, well this is surprising. Apparently, British Intellectual Peter Hitchins is supporting Russia, per a blog most he made on the Daily Mail. dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2571139/Russia-sick-humiliated-pushed-ignorant-outsiders-MoS-columnist-PETER-HITCHENS-says-Putin-DOES-right-intervene.html
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Yeah and he has spent the last decade in isolation from academics over his belief that Britain should not have went to war with Nazi Germany in 1939. He is a former Trotskyist who became a radical right-winger. I have always disliked his views. I preferred his atheist brother, Christopher, who died of cancer a couple of years back. Despite his anti-religion views, he had a much better grasp of foreign affairs and history.

Trust me, Peter Hitchens is the last person I’d want on my side for credibility.
 
That isn’t where I was going; please slow down.

Fascists, if they are I among the population of a nation, have a right to be heard in a truly democratic society, and they have “rights and liberties” too.

That doesn’t mean that a fascist is president, but is representing the opinion of his faction in duma, legislature, or bicameral government.

The fascist, like the labor, or conservative, or republican, or democrat doesn’t have a right to be in power. Rather, he has a right to be heard.

My point was seeking a reason for the fascist to be in the Ukrainian interim government. A marginalized (rightly so) voice to be included was meant to demonstrate unity and the principle I just explained.

However, the sad consequencw was vigilantism and disorder.

I hope I’ve explained this well and objectively a possible.
 
gilliam said:
It is being reported that people were ordered by their bosses to attend the pro-invasion demonstration and that it only lasted 1 hour after which the streets were empty. Not sure what to make of that.
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Simple: it’s prep for an international press release ala South Korea. (Propaganda.)
 
Ie on Peter Hitchens:
In a November 2007 column for The Mail on Sunday, Hitchens said that women who are raped should be denied anonymity and that he did not believe rape was a crime if the rape involved “men and women who have been engaged in a sexual relationship” or women who were “not specially chaste in their personal lives.”
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Or on his blog a few years back:
The people who sold us Iraq did so as if they were today’s Churchills. They were wrong.
In that case, how can we be sure that Churchill’s war was a good war?
What if the Men of Glory didn’t need to die or risk their lives? What if the whole thing was a miscalculated waste of life and wealth that destroyed Britain as a major power and turned her into a bankrupt pensioner of the USA?..
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But this is a minor issue beside his surgical examination of Britain’s guarantee to help Poland in March 1939. Hitler saw our “stand” as an empty bluff, and called it.
The Poles were crushed and murdered, and their country erased from the map. Hitler’s eventual defeat left Poland under the Soviet heel for two generations.
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We then embarked on a war which cost us our Empire, many of our best export markets, what was left of our naval supremacy, and most of our national wealth - gleefully stripped from us by Roosevelt in return for Lend-Lease supplies.
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As a direct result we sought membership of a Common Market that has since bled away our national independence.
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He is a neo-British imperialist. WWII ended European colonialism, so that makes it bad in Hitchens book.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-560700/Was-World-War-Two-just-pointless-self-defeating-Iraq-asks-Peter-Hitchens.html#ixzz2upTlXwRG
 
Appeal of Ukrainian Churches and Religious Organizations Regarding Foreign Aggression
Dear brothers and sisters!
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At this difficult time, when the military units of the Russian Federation, by breaching international and bilateral agreements, have invaded the sovereign territory of Ukraine, and the Council of the Federation as advised by the Russian President has given its consent to the use of the Russian troops in Ukraine, first and foremost we are urging all of you and all people of goodwill to unite with us in a prayer for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.
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We appeal to the Russian authorities to come to their senses and stop the aggression against Ukraine, immediately withdrawing its troops from Ukrainian land. The Russian authorities shall bear full responsibility before God and humanity for the irreparable consequences of further escalation of violence.
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In our country there is no harassment based on language, nation, or religion. Therefore, we attest, all attempts made by Russian propaganda to represent the events in Ukraine as a “fascist coup” and “extremists’ victory” do not correspond to reality.
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Dear brothers and sisters in Russia!
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Ukrainian people have only friendly and brotherly feelings towards the Russian people. Do not believe the propaganda, which incites hatred between us. We want to continue building friendly and brotherly relations with Russia, but only as a sovereign and independent state.
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We appeal to the international community, the guarantor countries of Ukraine’s security – the United States of America, the United Kingdom, the European Union, the UN and the OSCE – to stop the foreign invasion of Ukraine and the heavy-handed intervention in our internal affairs! Undermining peace and stability in Ukraine threatens to destroy the entire modern system of global security. Therefore, all possible measures must be taken in order to prevent war in Ukraine.
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Brothers and sisters!
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Churches and religious organizations in Ukraine are with the people of Ukraine. We strongly believe that God is not in force, but in truth. The truth is on the side of the Ukrainian people, and we shall win.
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May God keep you safe!
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The appeal has been signed by:
Patriarch Filaret (Denysenko), Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate;
Supreme Archbishop Sviatoslav (Shevchuk), Father and Head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church;
Yaakov Dov Bleich, **Chief Rabbi **of Kyiv and Ukraine of the Union of Jewish Religious Organizations of Ukraine;
heads of various Protestant groups.
 
It’s just been reported that G8 prep for Sochi has just been suspended.
 
GraceSofia said:
Appeal of Ukrainian Churches and Religious Organizations Regarding Foreign Aggression

The appeal has been signed by:
Patriarch Filaret (Denysenko), Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate;
Supreme Archbishop Sviatoslav (Shevchuk), Father and Head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church;
Yaakov Dov Bleich, **Chief Rabbi **of Kyiv and Ukraine of the Union of Jewish Religious Organizations of Ukraine;
heads of various Protestant groups.
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Did any Tatrars sign? If not, it is highly unlikely that the US will look at this seriously.
 
Miserissima said:
Did any Tatrars sign? If not, it is highly unlikely that the US will look at this seriously.
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LOL I forgot Obama cares more about 1% Muslims than all the rest Christians, but anyway, the Tatars are pro-Kiev and not pro-Russian invasion.

I posted it mostly for us, as I thought that Catholics would be interested in what Archbishop Shevchuk has to say.
 
gilliam said:
Berezovsky is part of the “new Crimea government” which was created last week and has pledged loyalty to Russia, not the Ukraine. In the US we would tall them traitors.
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Having been born in the North of Ireland and ‘ruled’ by Great Britain, I fully understand their position, and pledging loyalty to Russia, as I did to Ireland (although British born), does not make the Crimeans traitors, in anyway whatsoever. The Crimeans can align themselves with whomever they wish, the democratically elected government of the Ukraine has been overthrown - so each to their own, as they say!
 
GraceSofia said:
LOL I forgot Obama cares more about 1% Muslims than all the rest Christians, but anyway, the Tatars are pro-Kiev and not pro-Russian invasion.

I posted it mostly for us, as I thought that Catholics would be interested in what Archbishop Shevchuk has to say.
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I totally agree.

But i can’t remember the % of Tartars in crimea was none per cent or nineteen per cent. That alone should Be enough for Obama to weigh in heavily, just to “protect” them from their “protectors.”
 
pepipop said:
Having been born in the North of Ireland and ‘ruled’ by Great Britain, I fully understand their position, and pledging loyalty to Russia, as I did to Ireland (although British born), does not make the Crimeans traitors, in anyway whatsoever. The Crimeans can align themselves with whomever they wish, the democratically elected government of the Ukraine has been overthrown - so each to their own, as they say!
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I want to agree with you. The crown stocked the pond with a ruling, landed class that suppressed national identity.

Tell me how you would feel if Belfast said, “we are succeeding and allowing the south to be green?”

Would it be their right since they are both ethnically British, or wrong, as citizens of Eire? [This may bear a new thread.]

(I didn’t want to use this as as example since that’s as much as close to home as Ukraine is to me, but it works. Still, no one had addressed the question.)

Would your opinion be different if your family were from Wexford, or even Cork?
 
Miserissima said:
I totally agree.

But i can’t remember the % of Tartars in crimea was none per cent or nineteen per cent. That alone should Be enough for Obama to weigh in heavily, just to “protect” them from their “protectors.”
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I THINK I’ve been seeing 12% for the Muslims in news reports, but when I looked it up I found Crimean Tatars .5% and Tatars .2% in Ukraine. So…not sure. :confused:
Here in the last table. Population of Ukraine according to ethnic group 1959-2001
 
I meant to type “nine or nineteen per cent.” My phone had other ideas.

I heard on France24 those Tartars had no say, due to many factors by which they felt excluded. I’ll ask family next time I hear from them…I sent a sat phone for Christmas last year but it’s more costly to use than calling collect in 1983. 😉
 
Miserissima said:
I want to agree with you. The crown stocked the pond with a ruling, landed class that suppressed national identity.

Tell me how you would feel if Belfast said, “we are succeeding and allowing the south to be green?”

Would it be their right since they are both ethnically British, or wrong, as citizens of Eire? [This may bear a new thread.]

(I didn’t want to use this as as example since that’s as much as close to home as Ukraine is to me, but it works. Still, no one had addressed the question.)

Would your opinion be different if your family were from Wexford, or even Cork?
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I really don’t really understand your question. Over the past 40 years and a lot of conflict, there is now a devolved government in NI, with both sides having a say nationalists and unionists. The geographical south of the country of Ireland - is Ireland and it is ‘green’. 😃
 
pepipop said:
I really don’t really understand your question. Over the past 40 years and a lot of conflict, there is now a devolved government in NI, with both sides having a say nationalists and unionists. The geographical south of the country of Ireland - is Ireland and it is ‘green’. 😃
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You’re right, though the Beeb seriously under reports local unrest . I don’t see Ukraine having a "both sides " in power right now, and perhaps that should be on the table, a opposed to viewing Yanukovich as in someone else’s pocket.

Someday I hope to see Ireland for the Irish, but I guess it’s the best we can do so I’ll take it. I don’t see home rule on the horizon, either. That says to me that the troubles lessened when both sides had a place at the table, even with most of the splinter factions «being represented». What a good model for Russia.

Can Ukraine do the same? If so, how? How many tears?
 
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