Ukraine

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For the last time, pepipop, the current government of Crimea was established while under Russian (foreign) occupation (they ousted the last prime minister, even though he was part of Yanukovych’s government), i.e., there was no public election and parliament was not subject to public scrutiny while they formed the new government. Now they’re having a referendum, but there isn’t an option to respond “no”, how is this a legal referendum?
As I said before josie, I don’t think it will be viewed as a legal referendum. It’s probably part of the overall game, to assist Crimea to get more autonomy and Russia to get it’s agreement with the new Ukrainian government tightened, in relation to their naval base. The ultimate end may not be to have Crimea join Russia.
 
I don’t know what the answer to the situation in Crimea and Ukraine is. If Russia withdraws, I have little doubt that the de-facto government in Kiev will at some point begin taking action against pro-Russian demonstrators in the East and South, while in addition to that, it will very likely embolden the West to make there next move against Russia. There are already internet rumors (I said only rumors at this stage) that the next stop for Euromaidan is Belarus. 2 Belarusians were killed at the beginning of the riots in Kiev, and many protesters came to Ukraine, so I don’t it’s that far fetched an idea.
 
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pepipop:
*so you’re saying everyone on this thread should all be singing from the same hymn sheet, otherwise go away? I’m saying tell me how you’ve drawn your rather pro Russian opinions. If it’s simply a matter of you making poor choices in your media selections. Well, that’s something that can be worked on. If there is something else at work here. Then tell us and we can discuss it.

I really don’t know how to answer this, you think I am contributing on this thread to learn how to change ‘my’ opinion and told as to what media I should watch. :confused:

Possibly, because I come from a non-threatening nation, that get through this world on a totally different basis - but you can be rest assured we’re known nearly everywhere in the world and usually in a good light. We fully recognise unfairness, injustice and don’t like foul play, as we were under it ourselves for long enough. We support the underdog, anyone being bullied - or quite simply, we like to keep on the right side of right. We abhor injustice.

As someone commented, in relation to the US tax funded ‘body language’ analysis on Putin.* I could study the bees trying to predict their behavior. Or I could study The Idiot about to shake the beehive, and immediately understand what’s going to happen.* That about sums it up. Stay out of each others’ playpens!

It’s not like a game at all. Russia holds most of the cards because the cards are called military strength, and natural resources. I realize Ireland has very little of both. But in the world, they are what matter.

I fully recognise that is the case. I know nothing about the natural resources in Crimea but do not see them adding dramatically to Russia’s own. In relation to military strength - a misnomer to a point, as one nuclear weapon and over and out, planet earth. I thought most countries were reducing their military forces, at present.

*So, some crimean’s wish to be under russia’s wing, and some do not. Having a referendum while soldiers without insignia are occupying your lands. Well how could you defend that? As a further point, you seem to shine on what Vlad Putin is doing. As though either it’s not real, or somehow it doesn’t matter. Well as has been pointed out, the seizing of lands under any pretense is not going to be the way in this the 21st century. Eventually, either Russia does a course correction. Or, as many predict, Europe will be at war once again. Sadly, it may be left up to Russian Oligarch’s *

Keep the West out of other nation’s affairs, and none of this would have happened. He did not ‘seize’ the land, he was invited, I take your point as to the military presence in Crimea and the referendum, but they are meant to be there to protect the people, you assume they’re there to suppress the people and I don’t know which view is correct but no doubt it will come to light on the 16th, with the western media saying they are being suppressed, and other media saying they’re not - so we’ll all be none the wiser…*

Gotta keep it short.

Crimea’s resource is it’s warm water port, and access to the oceans by way of Turkey. Without it Russia’s navy is in trouble.

Your reference to Nuclear weapons being the end all for warfare is not accurate.

The troops deployed to Crimea are there to protect Russian interests in that area. People count for little when a table like that is set.

ATB
 
It would matter to me. I’d be interested in knowing who ordered the “intervention” and for what purpose.
Of course, it matters, that’s the point of my post, i.e., why not ask the Ukrainians how they feel about it?
 
I don’t know what the answer to the situation in Crimea and Ukraine is. If Russia withdraws, I have little doubt that the de-facto government in Kiev will at some point begin taking action against pro-Russian demonstrators in the East and South, while in addition to that, it will very likely embolden the West to make there next move against Russia. There are already internet rumors (I said only rumors at this stage) that the next stop for Euromaidan is Belarus. 2 Belarusians were killed at the beginning of the riots in Kiev, and many protesters came to Ukraine, so I don’t it’s that far fetched an idea.
Really, you have little doubt, you must think the de-facto government is crazy (and stupid), i.e., the Crimea is already occupied under false pretenses, do you therefore believe the government would risk the chance of providing Putin with a real reason to invade (again) ??? :rolleyes:
 
Really, you have little doubt, you must think the de-facto government is crazy (and stupid), i.e., the Crimea is already occupied under false pretenses, do you therefore believe the government would risk the chance of providing Putin with a real reason to invade??? :rolleyes:
Josie, you’ve just answered the reason why Putin is in Crimea! 🙂
I posted a link earlier of interviews with Irish Ukranians and those of Russian origin were delighted Putin was in Crimea, so as to stop a civil war.
 
Voters in Ukraine’s Russian-occupied Crimea who vote in the March 16 referendum have two choices – join Russia immediately or declare independence and then join Russia.

So the choices are “yes, now” or “yes, later.”

Voting “no” is not an option.

kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html

What a sham
You have given an incorrect translation of option number 2…
Here are the two questions:
  1. Ви за возз’єднання Криму з Росією на правах суб’єкта Російської Федерації?
  2. Ви за відновлення дії Конституції Республіки Крим 1992 року і за статус Криму як частини України?
    Translation from Ukrainian:
  3. Do you support the reunification of the Crimea with Russia as a federal subject of the Russian Federation?
  4. Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

My comment:
The 1992 constitution says that Crimea is part of Ukraine.
 
Of course, it matters, that’s the point of my post, i.e., why not ask the Ukrainians how they feel about it?
I’d be more interested in finding out how intervention was applied, who ordered it and for what purpose. Did a government agency order it? Was it a foreign policy think tank, or a group of globalist free-market bankers? …this is what i would be womdering, assuming anything of the sort even happened in the first place.
 
I’d be more interested in finding out how intervention was applied, who ordered it and for what purpose. Did a government agency order it? Was it a foreign policy think tank, or a group of globalist free-market bankers? …this is what i would be womdering, assuming anything of the sort even happened in the first place.
I hear you, more transparency.
 
You have given an incorrect translation of option number 2…
Here are the two questions:
  1. Ви за возз’єднання Криму з Росією на правах суб’єкта Російської Федерації?
  2. Ви за відновлення дії Конституції Республіки Крим 1992 року і за статус Криму як частини України?
    Translation from Ukrainian:
  3. Do you support the reunification of the Crimea with Russia as a federal subject of the Russian Federation?
  4. Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

My comment:
The 1992 constitution says that Crimea is part of Ukraine.
The Crimea has had, what, 3 constitutions since 1992?

In a free and fair referendum, you should be able to vote NO for each one.

The choice to vote NO has been held back from the people in this referendum. Which makes it a sham.
 
Hmm… possibly why the Crimeans never liked being or felt part of Ukraine. Pretty bad form, being handed over with no say in the matter.

english.pravda.ru/history/19-02-2009/107129-ussr_crimea_ukraine-0/

*USSR’s Nikita Khrushchev gave Russia’s Crimea away to Ukraine in only 15 minutes
19.02.2009

The Presidium of the Supreme Council of the Soviet Union passed the decree to hand over the Crimean region from the structure of the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) to the Ukrainian SSR within the Soviet Union. Then-Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, virtually gave Crimea away to Ukraine.

The delivery of the region from the Russian SSR to the Ukrainian SSR was just a formality during the years of the “indestructible” Soviet Union. Ukraine received such a gift on the occasion of the 300th anniversary since its unification with Russia. It could never occur to anyone back in those days that the USSR would collapse, and that Ukraine would no longer be a part of it.

Not a single protest was made; no one had any doubts about the decision. No one wondered how the population (presumably the Russian-speaking population) of Crimea would treat the decision. It turned out that such important issues as the territorial movement of regions could be solved without any difficulties at all.

The question should have been submitted to the open discussion of the Supreme Council of the Russian SSR. Moreover, a referendum should have been conducted to find out the opinion of the residents of the two republics. Nothing of that happened. The Presidium of the Supreme Council gathered for a session on February 19, 1954 - only 13 of 27 members were present. There was no quorum, but the decision was adopted unanimously.

The Supreme Council of Russia ruled in 1992 that the Crimean region had been delivered to Ukraine illegitimately.

Now the region is called the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.*
 
so you’re saying everyone on this thread should all be singing from the same hymn sheet, otherwise go away?
I’m saying tell me how you’ve drawn your rather pro Russian opinions. If it’s simply a matter of you making poor choices in your media selections. Well, that’s something that can be worked on. If there is something else at work here. Then tell us and we can discuss it.

We’re toying with WWIII …
used to be a fan of Bill O’Reilly until (among a few other reasons) in my humble opinion he started sounding like a nuclear tipped “pin-head”;
that is, thank God he did finally deny having any appetite for war in one of his more recent appearances.

Do Ukrainians expect the USA to go to war over this?
Do any of you other folks expect it?
Anyway, yes, that’s why I’m giving Putin and Mother Russia the benefit of the doubt …
it used to be Russian territory and the Crimea protects the soft under-belly of Russia so I personally understand why Putin wants it.

PS:
Take a look at the demographics of Russia:
Could you do Putin’s job?
Big deal … he was once in the KBG (the state security (like the FBI or the CIA));
But I still respect him and he did announce back in 2008 that he would take Crimea if anything like the Ukraine trying to join NATO were to happen.

rex
 
Hmm… possibly why the Crimeans never liked being or felt part of Ukraine. Pretty bad form, being handed over with no say in the matter.

The Supreme Council of Russia ruled in 1992 that the Crimean region had been delivered to Ukraine illegitimately.

Now the region is called the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.
This puts a new spin on it for me and is why Crimea should have the optition to be its own Nation without Ukrainian OR Russian influence.

In case no one noticed, I had kept to the hope that “Ukraine for Ukrainians” would be the battle cry.

Oh, man, if Crimea had the option to be a sovereignty, you bet that Ukraine would lose revenue (even in rent of the port), and Russia would still have a puppet government and kangaroo courts simply because Crimea doesn’t have its own national identity.

What a mess.
 
You have given an incorrect translation of option number 2…
Here are the two questions:
  1. Ви за возз’єднання Криму з Росією на правах суб’єкта Російської Федерації?
  2. Ви за відновлення дії Конституції Республіки Крим 1992 року і за статус Криму як частини України?
    Translation from Ukrainian:
  3. Do you support the reunification of the Crimea with Russia as a federal subject of the Russian Federation?
  4. Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

My comment:
The 1992 constitution says that Crimea is part of Ukraine.
No option for sovereignty, huh? This screams, “FIX!”
 
Josie, you’ve just answered the reason why Putin is in Crimea! 🙂
I posted a link earlier of interviews with Irish Ukranians and those of Russian origin were delighted Putin was in Crimea, so as to stop a civil war.
No, I haven’t as I don’t believe there was going to be a civil war, i.e., things have only escalated since Putin established his occupation in the Crimea. It is a pretext. Just like the referendum is a sham.
 
This puts a new spin on it for me and is why Crimea should have the optition to be its own Nation without Ukrainian OR Russian influence.

In case no one noticed, I had kept to the hope that “Ukraine for Ukrainians” would be the battle cry.

Oh, man, if Crimea had the option to be a sovereignty, you bet that Ukraine would lose revenue (even in rent of the port), and Russia would still have a puppet government and kangaroo courts simply because Crimea doesn’t have its own national identity.

What a mess.
I would agree, they should have a choice to be autonomous. They may still be, as this is all at the game stage IMHO. For all you know if the referendum says yes, then Russia, Crimea and Ukraine all sit around the table (as it gives Russia and Crimea a strong hand) and settle the best deals for themselves, whatever they may be. The loser (in one sense) being the Ukraine. Russia may stay the same, but with a stronger Crimean agreement and Crimea will be independent. OR maybe Crimea really want to be with Russia, again. Who knows?
 
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