Ukraine

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HansTrappist said:
Can you imagine what would happen if a “protester” threw a Molotov cocktail at an American Police Officer? .
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They probably would be shot and killed if the police thought they were threatened (we don’t tolerate physical violence against our police in the USA and the laws back them up on it.) One this is certain, the police would not sew someone’s mouth shut shut. That is torture and our police are not allowed to do that. And it would be assumed that if you had them in a position to be able to sew their mouth shut they would no longer be a physical threat to you.

There is no justification for torture in this case.
 
gilliam said:
They probably would be shot and killed if the police thought they were threatened (we don’t tolerate physical violence against our police in the USA and the laws back them up on it.) One this is certain, the police would not sew someone’s mouth shut shut. That is torture and our police are not allowed to do that. And it would be assumed that if you had them in a position to be able to sew their mouth shut they would no longer be a physical threat to you.

There is no justification for torture in this case.
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Exactly!

If these Ukrainian “protesters” had been “protesting” in any American city the way they have been “protesting” in Independence Square, they would have been shot dead long ago and the American media would be portraying them as “domestic terrorists” rather than as “protesters” against mean old Yanukovych. The hypocritical propaganda being passed off as reliable, trustworthy, unbiased “news” by the Western Media is sickening.

Now, regarding the man with his mouth sewn shut. Again, the key word in the “news” article you cited is “allegedly” (I think that word was used twice in the article). In other words, the article you cited gilliam is not really factual reporting but rather conjecture. There is no evidence that the Ukrainian police tortured that man by sewing his mouth shut. For all we know, the radical, extremist, violent opposition sewed his mouth shut and then lied about it in order to earn a few sympathy points.
 
gilliam said:
They probably would be shot and killed if the police thought they were threatened (we don’t tolerate physical violence against our police in the USA and the laws back them up on it.) One this is certain, the police would not sew someone’s mouth shut shut. That is torture and our police are not allowed to do that. And it would be assumed that if you had them in a position to be able to sew their mouth shut they would no longer be a physical threat to you.

There is no justification for torture in this case.
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But, the Ukrainian authorities according to some have shown " tremendous restraint"?

youtube.com/watch?v=zMpEKW8zcxY

youtube.com/watch?v=-JzoFv1kb7Y

youtube.com/watch?v=EV0xAn8EAqM

youtube.com/watch?v=5WhAjrec10o

youtube.com/watch?v=PU0_0IOS0Ng
 
josie_L said:
But, the Ukrainian authorities according to some have shown " tremendous restraint"?

youtube.com/watch?v=zMpEKW8zcxY

youtube.com/watch?v=-JzoFv1kb7Y

youtube.com/watch?v=EV0xAn8EAqM

youtube.com/watch?v=5WhAjrec10o

youtube.com/watch?v=PU0_0IOS0Ng
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Well, I guess the Berkut can only tolerate so many dead police officers before they have to respond in kind.

Here is a video of the “peaceful protesters” setting Ukrainian police officers on fire:

youtube.com/watch?v=0X2VqnS0E34

Here is a video of the “peaceful protesters” brutally attacking Ukrainian police officers:

youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

These “protesters” are not legitimate protesters. They are a bunch of criminals and terrorists who have been incited by the EU and the United States to overthrow the legitimate authorities in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian police have a duty to maintain law and order. These “protesters” have resorted to criminal behavior and deserve to be treated like the violent criminals that they are.
 
HansTrappist said:
Exactly!

**If these Ukrainian “protesters” had been “protesting” in any American city the way they have been “protesting” in Independence Square, they would have been shot dead long ago and the American media would be portraying them as “domestic terrorists” rather than as “protesters” **against mean old Yanukovych. The hypocritical propaganda being passed off as reliable, trustworthy, unbiased “news” by the Western Media is sickening.

Now, regarding the man with his mouth sewn shut. Again, the key word in the “news” article you cited is “allegedly” (I think that word was used twice in the article). In other words, the article you cited gilliam is not really factual reporting but rather conjecture. There is no evidence that the Ukrainian police tortured that man by sewing his mouth shut. For all we know, the radical, extremist, violent opposition sewed his mouth shut and then lied about it in order to earn a few sympathy points.
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If Americans were dealing with the kind of government that the Ukrainians are living with, then I’m pretty certain there would be civil war, i.e., no American would allow the kind of obscenely autocratic behaviour exhibited by the present Ukrainian government to continue leading them. No human being for that matter would stomach living under a regime with no regard for it’s people and/or democracy.

God bless!
 
HansTrappist said:
Well, I guess the Berkut can only tolerate so many dead police officers before they have to respond in kind.

Here is a video of the “peaceful protesters” setting Ukrainian police officers on fire:

youtube.com/watch?v=0X2VqnS0E34

Here is a video of the “peaceful protesters” brutally attacking Ukrainian police officers:

youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

**These “protesters” are not legitimate protesters. They are a bunch of criminals and terrorists who have been incited by the EU and the United States to overthrow the legitimate authorities in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian police have a duty to maintain law and order. These “protesters” have resorted to criminal behavior and deserve to be treated like the violent criminals that they are**.
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Where are you getting your information from??? And the brutality was initiated by police/ government, not the protestors, I.e., they are fighting back!!!
 
josie_L said:
Where are you getting your information from??? And the brutality was initiated by police/government, not the protestors, do you blame them for fighting back?
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Where are you getting your information from?
 
Before the protests even began
KyivAndrew said:
View attachment 19109

This is what happened to the Ukrainian journalist Tetanya Chornovol, after she took pictures of the massive sick mansion the thuggish President of UkraineYanukovych built for himself on the public purse. She gets beaten to near-death late at night when a car full of Yanukovych’s thugs crash into her car, take her out, and begin punching and kicking her. Those who wish to defend Yanukovych on CAF basically have to defend this policy as well, beating young girls to a pulp, because Yanukovych is resorting to such methods more often with respect to his political critics.

And this is why people are protesting to put an end to Yanukovych’s regime. They have no wish of living in fear in a police state where thugs (titushky) and the militia beat and kill people with impunity and threaten the existence of its Catholic Church, among other things.
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Watch the video of her being chased:

youtube.com/watch?v=_hGzAHxHZeQ
 
HansTrappist said:
Where are you getting your information from?
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Well, the Economist, Sun News, Youtube, Kyiv Andrew (whose Ukrainian background and political interest of the Ukraine is well known to me), just to name a few, so I ask again, where are you getting your information from?

Here’s an article from the “Economist” written from the point of view of the Ukrainian PEN association (it’s an association of Ukrainian writers);
According to the Ukrainian PEN statement, signed by Kurkov, his fellow PEN vice-president, Mykoła Riabchuk, and its president, Myroslav Marynovych, the Ukrainian government has “crossed the red line that separates semi-authoritarian regimes from genuine dictatorships”.
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“They persistently tighten the screws, encourage lawlessness and provoke more confrontation and violence. They remain deaf to all moderate voices and calls for peace. They seem to understand only the language of force,” write Kurkov and his fellow authors, calling on the international community “to use such language too”.
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“We call on our international colleagues not only to express their support for Ukrainian writers and journalists and their solidarity with the Ukrainian people. We call on you to mobilise your democratic societies and increase pressure on your governments to take a tougher stance against a regime that is leading its country to further violence and bloodshed,” they write. “We call for sanctions against a regime that is violating human rights, including the most fundamental ones: the right to life and the right to freedom.”
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Kurkov said today that the situation in Ukraine was “not improving”, and was “moving in a very dangerous direction”.
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The PEN statement focuses particularly on “police brutality aimed at journalists” in Ukraine, claiming that “all the evidence shows that the police forces not only ignore journalists’ badges and vests but deliberately target, detain and beat them, break their cameras and destroy video materials”.
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International PEN said in a separate statement that it was also “deeply concerned by the attacks suffered by journalists covering events at Euromaidan” and also by the recent introduction of “new, draconian legislation aimed at curtailing freedom of expression, prohibiting almost all protests and stifling dissent and debate”.
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"Ukraine is following Russia’s lead in more ways than one: like Russia, Ukraine has now recriminalised defamation, providing punishments of up to two years in prison for violations. At a time when the current European trend is to move away from the criminalisation of speech offences, this law is a backward step and is clearly designed to silence dissent," said the writers’ organisation, calling on the Ukrainian government to “amend these new laws to ensure that the fundamental right to freedom of expression is fully respected”.
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"Ukraine must comply with its obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to protect freedom of expression," said International PEN.
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economist.com/node/215950…ts#commentForm
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They don’t seem to think that the protestors are the ones doing harm to the country, rather they blame the government. And rightly so!
 
HansTrappist said:
Where’s the proof that Yanukovich was behind this attack?

For all we know the same Western-supported terrorists that have been murdering Ukrainian police officers were behind this attack.
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And what reasons would “western-supported terrorists” have in beating up Tetanya Chornovol, when she was in the process of exposing corrupt government officials, including Yanukovych, right before she was almost beaten to death:
Since 2004, she began specializing in investigative journalism, contributing to several Ukrainian online newspapers, including Ukrayinska Pravda,[3] Levyi Bereg[3] and Obozrevatel. Her focus topics are suspicious personal wealth of the politicians, public servants and businessmen, as well as their involvement in crime.
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Among Chornovol’s many investigative publications are those addressing alleged organized crime background of Ukraine’s richest man Rinat Akhmetov and the current President Viktor Yanukovych, as well as lavish countryside property of the latter.[3][4]
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In August 2012 she “scaled the walls of Mr. Yanukovych’s residential compound, which includes 345 acres of forested hills along the Dnieper River and is called “Mezhyhirya” after the park where it is situated, and spent nearly three hours wandering the property and taking photographs before being detained by security”.[4] Chornovol is not the only, but the first investigative journalist researching the “Mezhyhirya”: she started the topic back in 2006.[11]
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetiana_Chornovol
 
I will be the last American standing if I have to worry about freedom of speech!
😉
 
grotto said:
“For all we know”…etc. is disgusting. You obviously do not know anything!:mad:
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What is truly “disgusting” is pretending that terrorists that murder and mutilate Ukrainian police officers are legitimate “protesters.”

But back to Chornovol’s beating, again, I ask you to cite any facts that document that Yanukovich was behind it. In the absence of any facts demonstrating that Yanukovich was behind her beating, I find the insinuation that he was truly “disgusting,” slanderous, and suspect.
 
These “protesters” are not legitimate protesters. They are a bunch of criminals and terrorists who have been incited by the EU and the United States to overthrow the legitimate authorities in Ukraine.
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If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…it may NOT necessarily be a duck. That’s the state of affairs in todays world folks. Truly, truly, don’t dismiss this point because otherwise YOU ARE A SITTING DUCK.

Have the EU and US planted pot-stirrers and professional “leftists” in Ukraine to light it up like a barrel of fireworks? Possibly. They have the money, resources and determination to make it happen. Is that just Russian propaganda? Possibly. They are savvy enough to make a lie believable.

What is the truth? It’s hard to know for sure.

Here’s what we do know:

The media no longer is impartial. Ever. And hasn’t been for years. No matter what channel you are watching (Fox, CNN, MSNBC), there’s a spoon feeding going on (them telling you what to think in subtle and not so subtle ways). It’s no longer about the truth, about the news, it’s now about shaping your mind and how you think and perceive things.

Russia wants Ukraine. The “good old days” aren’t over in Russia’s eyes, it’s just smoke and mirrors. The West (used to be Christian but openly is no longer) wants Ukraine not because they are freedom fighters, but because the West has its own agenda.

We are living in very, very interesting times. It will no longer do for anyone (you and me) to follow news reports and accept what your eyes and ears are seeing and hearing. It’s time to THINK CRITICALLY. Be smart. Learn how to debate on facts and not emotion. Learn how to detach yourself when it comes to politics and keep your emotions under control. Learn how to spot “half-truths”. Learn how to spot media manipulation (if you look honestly at the headlines and writing style during the Sarah Palin period, study them and keep your Palin opinions out of it, you will see how they do it and can apply what you learned everywhere). Learn how to flip an issue and see it from all sides. Be calm, rational.

Because if you aren’t, you and your country may be next (if it needs “help” conforming to the West’s plan) and you will find yourself in a middle of revolution and wonder how the heck that even happened. You will be angry and furious and willing to set fire and burn property and spit in the face of authority and kill people. And be self righteous about it the whole time.

Is Putin dangerous? Yes. Do I trust him? No Way. Is it really shiesty that Ukraine is so loaded up with a Russian people (because years ago Russia starved to death so many Ukrainians they needed to populate the land again with Russians to work and reap it) and these folk are the ones responsible for voting in a Russian-friendly government? Yes.

But there’s no hard and fast, black and white anymore. There’s shades and clouds and sinister stuff on all sides. The Ukrainian people are being played and manipulated by both sides. They are the ones that are dying. Which superpower will rise from the ashes of Ukraine? The West or the Russians? Only God knows how this will end. All we can do is pray for them and hope for a miracle that they come out as UKRAINIANS and not puppets of the West or the East.
 
josie_L said:
…so I ask again, where are you getting your information from?
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From my own eyes:

youtube.com/watch?v=0X2VqnS0E34

youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

cbsnews.com/news/us-victoria-nuland-wades-into-ukraine-turmoil-over-yanukovich/

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561895/Protesters-clash-police-Ukraines-capital.html

theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/19/russian-ukraine-putin-blames-west-protest

Again, these Ukrainian “protesters” should be thankful that the Ukrainian Berkut were so tolerant for so long. If these Ukrainian “protesters” had beaten American Police with hard objects and had thrown molotov cocktails at American Police, every last one of them would have been dead weeks ago.

Here’s a great op-ed piece accurately identifying the source of the “protests”: policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukraine

In part, it reads:

So what are the protests really about?

On December 18, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych inked a deal with Russia whereby Moscow would buy $15 billion worth of Ukraine’s eurobond debt and slash its gas bill by a third, saving the country from almost certain bankruptcy.

The story told by Western media has been that the peace-loving masses spontaneously erupted in direct action to support the EU deal, and President Yanukovych, as deemed by the New York Times, is betraying his citizens by “bow[ing] to Russia’s threats” and “payouts.”

Leaving aside which deal was more advantageous to Ukraine’s population, there’s reason to be skeptical of the current protestors’ demands, and how genuinely they represent the will of a deeply divided country. Like all events in which geopolitics is afoot, an illustrative historical context eludes the eyes of those watching CNN.

Since the USSR crumbled in 1991, the United States and its NATO partners have attempted to chip away countries of the former Soviet bloc from their traditional links to Russia, including Ukraine. Their favored method? Form protests, splash a little color on them, then call it a revolution.

What do all of these “revolutions” of the past two decades have in common? They were all organized, financed, and/or significantly aided by American “pro-democracy” outfits like USAID, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), Freedom House, George Soros’ Open Society Institute, and a whole constellation of public-private affiliates.

For those who don’t recall these “color revolutions,” here’s a primer: They began with Serbia’s Bulldozer Revolution in 2000; then Georgia’s Rose Revolution of 2003, which rose the psychotic Mikhail Saakashvili to power (who, in turn, started a war with Russia that destroyed his country and almost brought the U.S. into World War III); Kyrgyzstan’s 2005 Tulip Revolution, which later led to massive violence and near-ethnic cleansing; and Ukraine’s 2004 Orange Revolution, which deserves closer examination in light of the recent deluge of support for the political opposition from the U.S. Senate and the Worst Batman…
 
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