Ukraine

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Great read, Josie!

So, since this thread has been almost up to the minute, what’s the skinny now?

The Russian response was subdued during the Olympics. There were pro-Russia protests in the East. The Russian Ambassador has been recalled, and Russia does not recognize Ukraine’s interim government.

An arrest warrant has been issued for Yanukovich, who, after trying twice to enter Russia, remains in hiding.

Am I tracking?
 
I was in Georgia the week before Russia’s invasion on Aug. 8, 2008. The parallels between that situation and the current crisis in Ukraine are crystal clear.
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Worrying.
Good advice, wrong address: Russia responds to Susan Rice ‘no tanks to Ukraine’ warning
Washington would be a more appropriate recipient of the piece of wisdom.
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“We have noted the expert assessment of Susan Rice based on multiple cases when American troops were sent to various places of the word, especially those where the US administration believed the norms of Western democracy were in danger, or where the local regimes were getting out of hand,” a Russian Foreign Ministry source told news agencies on Monday.
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LOL They do have a point there.
 
In all honesty, it has not been the Americans who had been advising Yanukovych’s government on how to kill Ukrainians, but the Kremlin, according to the following story:

Ukraine averted greater bloodbath, Moskal alleges

"The top law enforcement official for Viktor Yanukovych, the disgraced former Ukrainian president who is now a fugitive fleeing mass murder charges, had planned an even greater bloodbath to suppress anti-government protests, according to a member of parliament who said he has documents to prove his allegations, Hennadii Moskal…

The plans called for the deployment of 22,000 police officers, including 2,000 Berkut riot police, and 224 Security Services of Ukraine anti-terrorist Alpha Group officers, including seven snipers.

He also said that, according to the documents, Russia played a role in the planned mass murders.

Moskal said that the former first deputy head of the general staff of the Russian Armed Forces’ Main Intelligence Directorate played a major role in planning the operations…"

kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/ukraine-averted-greater-bloodbath-moskal-alleges-337526.html
 
From m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26327211

[Medvedev] added: “We do not understand what is going on there. There is a real threat to our interests and to the lives of our citizens.”

Is this a poor translation of “citizens?” I ask because if eastern Ukraine is mostly ethnically Russian, aren’t they citizens of Ukraine?

It just struck me as Medvedev sounding as is Ukraine is just a province of Russia…shades of the UK and Ireland, if you will.

I’ve seen the language maps, does anyone have an immigrant/citizenship map?
 
Miserissima said:
From m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26327211

[Medvedev] added: “We do not understand what is going on there. There is a real threat to our interests and to the lives of our citizens.”

Is this a poor translation of “citizens?” I ask because if eastern Ukraine is mostly ethnically Russian, aren’t they citizens of Ukraine?

It just struck me as Medvedev sounding as is Ukraine is just a province of Russia…shades of the UK and Ireland, if you will.

I’ve seen the language maps, does anyone have an immigrant/citizenship map?
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No, eastern Ukraine is not mostly ethnically Russian. The largest ethnic group in Ukraine is of course the Ukrainians who constitute some 78% of Ukraine’s population. Ethnic Russians make up some 17% of Ukraine’s population.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

The confusion may lie in the fact that some Ukrainians use the Russian language predominantly (after years of Russification under the Soviet Union) but still consider themselves Ukrainian. Indeed on the Maidan, among the protestors the Russian language could be heard among the people as much as Ukrainian. This East/West split is overstated a lot and things are a lot more complex.

The BBC article is also wrong in writing that “On Sunday, Ukraine’s parliament reduced the official status of the Russian language by cancelling a law brought in by Mr Yanukovych.” The law brought in by Yanukovych** in effect **would have reduced the Ukrainian language’s status completely. The situation in law is now as it was since independence from the Soviet Union since 1991.

The number of Russian “citizens” per se in Ukraine is really quite small, it’s just that the Kremlin has been giving out Russian passports in Crimea recently.
 
KyivAndrew said:
population. Ethnic
The number of Russian “citizens” per se in Ukraine is really quite small, it’s just that the Kremlin has been giving out Russian passports in Crimea recently.
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France TV and the BBC keep reiterating try eastern Ukraine, split almost along the language map, is “ethnicallt Russian,” and unlike Ms. Rice, I apologize for passing on misinformation. 😃

What is the current Russian military strength in.Ukraine? Anything else in addition to the Navy that took over from the British stationed there in the Certain War?
 
Miserissima said:
As always Andrew, thank you for for wisdom and patience.
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Oh, no worries. I kind of just post on the run now, no time to worry about grammer (correction: grammar) because until this thread I think I was only posting once a day, if that. 🙂
 
Miserissima said:
France TV and the BBC keep reiterating try eastern Ukraine, split almost along the language map, is “ethnicallt Russian,” and unlike Ms. Rice, I apologize for passing on misinformation. 😃

What is the current Russian military strength in.Ukraine? Anything else in addition to the Navy that took over from the British stationed there in the Certain War?
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No worries. It’s a complex situation, and to keep the stress on an East/West split is kind of overdone by many media outlets. There have been many pro-democracy Maidan protests in Eastern Ukraine; it is just that some of the governors there appointed by Yanukovych still hold sway.

As for Russian military strength, it is focused in Crimea with the Black Sea Fleet, which Yanukovych allowed to stay for a long lease hoping to get concessions from Putin for that, which he did not get. Right now, I think Ukrainians would be more worried about the Russian secret services destabilizing the situation in Ukraine, or Russia using economic blackmail, which would be against the WTO which it just joined.
 
Miserissima said:
[Medvedev] added: “We do not understand what is going on there. There is a real threat to our interests and to the lives of our citizens.”

Is this a poor translation of “citizens?” I ask because if eastern Ukraine is mostly ethnically Russian, aren’t they citizens of Ukraine?

It just struck me as Medvedev sounding as is Ukraine is just a province of Russia…shades of the UK and Ireland, if you will.
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A couple of Russians that I have spoken with (and I know that two people is not a scientific poll!) did give me the impression that that was how they viewed Ukraine. They were sort of indignant that Ukraine would want to wiggle out of the big bear hug and look more Westerly. It needn’t be an either West or East situation… but politics may make it so.

The “threat to our citizens” reminds me of Turkey using an unstable situation in Cyprus to invade under the pretext of protecting the Turkish Cypriots (who were Cypriots, not Turks) in 1974. The Turkish army still occupies 37% of Cyprus. 😦
 
Its not good for Ukraine’s economy. Dialogue is best option, i go with US…
 
GaryTaylor said:
Its been quiet last 24 hrs. I hope they find a peaceful solution.

news.yahoo.com/ukraine-ushers-era-president-39-whereabouts-unknown-111638516.html
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The quiet is what makes me pay attention. I have no doubt that agitators are being planted in the south and east.

If the Ukrainian mutineers were really thugs, wouldn’t they have looted the palatial residences?
At a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday, Mr Lavrov warned other states against seeking “unilateral advantages” in Ukraine, but said Russia’s “policy of non-intervention” would continue.
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from here: m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26333587

What is this policy of non intervention? Not dealing with the interim government?

It’s like a wife who finally leaves her abusive spouse but the bank account is in his name.
 
Fears of a new government are not all that irrational to Russian speakers in parts of Ukraine. Animosity towards all things Russian is not an uncommon trait in Western Ukraine, and when you include plans to join the EU, NATO, and prevent the adoption of Russian as one of the two national languages, yes, alot of people in parts of the country are going to feel marginalized. Why a supposedly religiously conservative nation would want to establish integration with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc is beyond my understanding.
 
Do you like to read? Tom Clancy is a legendary author of “staying up all night, nail biting, informative, great” thrillers and every other written works. May I recommend, “Command Authority” by Tom Clancy. Go ahead, read it and get shaken by his grasp of world situations.:coffeeread:
 
Read the book - watch the news - hang on things are tense! When its the real deal - pray for strength everybody and I will be praying for you. Protect the children and the elderly and ask for advice from the elderly - they have been there. I really don’t have a clue about my fellow Americans knowing what is going on - we seem to be going through a whole lot of stuff here.
We have a lot on our plate as they say. Putin’s big show is over (Olympics) and he is probably all pumped up. Be prepared for whatever. I did hear a report that the fugitive Yanu got shot in the leg and his muscle man was also injured. True? I dunno:shrug: Sure could use a little good news!
 
I am at a loss over the emerging graffiti and vandalism such as swastikas painted inside buildings and synagogues attacked.

Who are these punks?!
 
Seamus_L said:
Fears of a new government are not all that irrational to Russian speakers in parts of Ukraine. Animosity towards all things Russian is not an uncommon trait in Western Ukraine, and when you include plans to join the EU, NATO, and prevent the adoption of Russian as one of the two national languages, yes, alot of people in parts of the country are going to feel marginalized. Why a supposedly religiously conservative nation would want to establish integration with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc is beyond my understanding.
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Poland is part of the EU, Croatia, Italy, Lithuania, Latvia . . etc., i.e., why would it forsake building ties with these nations, when the history between Russia and the Ukraine has been so volatile? And so what if there is animosity towards “all things Russian”, is it not understandable considering the continuous interference of Russia into Ukrainian affairs? And if the Russian-speaking Ukrainians are afraid they sure do have a weird way of showing it, i.e., did you not see how aggressive they were being towards peaceful Maidan protestors (you yourself put up the video)? And with Russia a stone’s throw away, I hardly think the new government is going to “persecute” or make problems for the East or the Ukraine as a whole, quite frankly, my worry is Russia, not the new Ukrainian government.
 
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