Ukraine

[OrdinaryMelkite]

No the EU is not considering putting sanctions against the country Ukraine now and it never did, only against those members in government responsible for orders to shoot to kill civilians.

Plus, it is not true the majority of Ukrainians rejected membership in the EU before everything hit the fan as you aver. The last poll done by the Razumkov Center (a respectable polling centre) confirmed this. It’s getting late here so I’m out, sorry.

Even the folks to the east of the country? And the south central portion of it? The ethnic Russians?

I’m not kidding.

Just wanted to know.

 

[josie_L]

It seems like an easy choice: $800 million from the EU or 15000 million (15 billion) and cheap gas from Russia.

Yanukovych is for Yanukovych, or have you not noticed this?

 

[josie_L]

Even the folks to the east of the country? And the south central portion of it? The ethnic Russians?

I’m not kidding.

Just wanted to know.

Post #391, and if you look a few pages back you’ll find more information (on the ethnic composition and fighting in the Crimea, i.e., the Tatars do not want to be part of Russia).

 

[gilliam]

Crimean MPs have elected Serhiy Aksionov, the leader of the Russian Unity party, as the region’s new prime minister, reports from Simferopol say.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Post #391, and if you look a few pages back you’ll find more information (on the ethnic composition and fighting in the Crimea, i.e., the Tatars do not want to be part of Russia).

Thank you.

One thing though…

Some of the people on the other forums keep mentioning Svoboda…does he really have any influence in this? Guess not…

 

[josie_L]

That’s funny, but I did not see any Berkut snipers in that video.

We must be very careful before we lay blame without all the facts and based on an ambiguous video. It may have just as well been Right Sector firing on the protesters in order to blame Yanukovych.

But Yanukovych was perfectly within his rights to use lethal force against violent protesters who did nothing but thrown molotov cocktails at and commit other crimes against the Ukrainian Police. In fact, initially the Ukrainian Police TOLERATED the violence against their own and responded patiently with non-lethal measures before they were forced to respond lethally after dozens of Berkut were murdered.

Do you believe that the Berkut snipers could have been behind the killings, because they way I see, you are denying this possibility?

 

[josie_L]

I thought this would be an interesting read about the geopolitical landscape in Eastern Europe, and/or Russia’s influence in former Soviet nations:

Moscow Puts the Soviet Squeeze on Neighbor Nations

November 13, 2013 • From theTrumpet.com

Putin’s goal of reversing the ‘greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century’ underpins the bulk of Russian policy. Europe is taking note.

By Jeremiah Jacques

The European Union will hold a summit in Lithuania on November 28 to offer several former Soviet nations economic and “association” deals under its Eastern Partnership program. Russian President Vladimir Putin wants these nations to instead join the Eurasian customs union that Moscow created with Belarus and Kazakhstan. And he is not above bullying them into joining up.

**In August, Russia halted all Ukrainian imports crossing the Russian border for tedious customs examinations. After a week the Kremlin removed most of the restrictions, but said it might permanently reinstate them if Ukraine accepts the EU deal. **

Armenia has long been dependent on Moscow for security, and the country’s President Serzh Sargsyan was apparently reminded of this during a September meeting with Mr. Putin. He emerged from the talk saying Armenia would ditch years’ worth of efforts it made toward joining the Eastern Partnership program, and instead join Russia’s group.

Meanwhile, in Georgia, Russian forces have worked over the last few months to build barricades along the border of South Ossetia, the breakaway region that Putin’s forces have occupied since the 2008 war. Georgia sees the barricades as a gradual annexation.

Last month, the Kremlin banned Lithuania’s dairy products, and temporarily doubled up customs inspections on the nation’s other goods. Since Lithuania is already an EU member, the moves are apparently just punishment for its decision to host the upcoming summit.

Then there’s Moldova. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin recently said it would be “a grave mistake” for Moldova to try to build warmer ties with Europe. The impoverished nation is completely reliant on Russian gas for heat, and Rogozin threatened to cut off that supply, adding, “We hope that you will not freeze.” Russian then outlawed Moldovan wine and brandy, some of the nation’s chief exports, and said it may ban apples and other produce too. Rumors have also circulated that tens of thousands of Moldovans who hold jobs in Russia may be kicked out, severing the financial lifeline for myriad Moldovan families

thetrumpet.com/article/11102.19.0.0/asia/moscow-puts-the-soviet-squeeze-on-neighbor-nations?preview

 

[josie_L]

continued . . . . .

The 20th Century’s Greatest Catastrophe?

The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 reversed a development that had been in the works since the 17th century when the Russian Empire first emerged. This development was the systemic integration and centralization of Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Siberia and the Caucasus. Its core was Moscow. Its goal was challenging European powers.

Although economically brittle, Russian forces were militarily powerful enough to heavily contribute to Napoleon’s and Hitler’s defeats. Russia even held its ground for more than four decades against the mighty United States during the Cold War.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Western world rejoiced, heralding it as a victory for liberty, a triumph for democracy, and evidence of the supremacy of capitalism over socialism. Most of the former Soviet nations were optimistic and inspired by goals of rebuilding and democratizing.

But not everyone saw the collapse as a positive event.

**“[T]he demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said in 2005. **

The aftermath of the collapse presented hardships, not just for Russia, but also for several of the former Soviet states that initially rejoiced when the USSR fell. Those countries without energy to export suffered a colossal decline in standard of living, followed by a period of economic stagnation.

The strain was enough to nudge some of these nations back into Russia’s arms, as demonstrated most plainly by the establishment of Putin’s Russia-Belarus-Kazakhstan trade union. Mr. Putin intends the partnership between these three countries to be a permanent feature within the sphere of the former Soviet Union, and is bent on absorbing other nations into it.

Under Mr. Putin’s reign, Moscow is laboring to recreate the geography of the Soviet Union, and to reassert Russia’s influence in the region. The goal of reversing the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” undergirds almost every facet of the Kremlin’s foreign policy. And Russia’s focus is not lost on Europe.

thetrumpet.com/article/11102.19.0.0/asia/moscow-puts-the-soviet-squeeze-on-neighbor-nations?preview

 

[josie_L]

continued . . . .

The ‘Spark’ to Unite Europe

An increasing number of European leaders recognize Putin’s determination to recreate the Soviet Union’s former glory. Last week, 6,000 nato soldiers participated in drills in Estonia to defend the nation against invasion from a fictional country called Bothnia. The fact that the drill—nato’s largest in seven years—took place in one of only three former Soviet states now in the EU demonstrated Europe’s ongoing suspicion of Russia.

The nato exercise came weeks after Russian troops simulated fending off an invasion of Belarus, a former Soviet country still under Russia’s sway.

Russia and Europe wield critical influence over each other, which forces them to choose either to respect each other as friends or to compete as foes. For now, the two are mostly cooperating, but Europe is increasingly anxious about the squeeze Russia is putting on its former satellites. This anxiousness was evident in the drills in Estonia. The more pushy and power-thirsty Moscow grows, the more the European nations feel forced to forfeit political and economic autonomy in exchange for the EU’s militarily assurance.

thetrumpet.com/article/11102.19.0.0/asia/moscow-puts-the-soviet-squeeze-on-neighbor-nations?preview

 

[grotto]

Not being skillful in posting photos that accompany news clippings, I can just say that on December 19th last, Putin and Yanukovich appeared sitting together in close conversation. Putin was smiling and Yanukovich was smiling with a wink. This picture appeared among the front page stories of the latest Kiev struggle. The article accompanying the pic said that Putin was loaning the Ukraine 19B and dropping the price of gas by half.

Has anyone else come across this and could you put it up? Thanks if you can, it was worth a thousand words!

 

[Tomdstone]

I thought this would be an interesting read about the geopolitical landscape in Eastern Europe, and/or Russia’s influence in former Soviet nations:
"Last month, the Kremlin banned Lithuania’s dairy products, and temporarily doubled up customs inspections on the nation’s other goods. "

Why should Russians be forced to drink milk poisoned with the antibiotic tetracycline which had been found in the dairy products from Lithuania? Russia has every right to protect the health of its citizens.

 

[Miserissima]

I’m watching the Russian saber rattling and am of two minds over Crimea.

First, I’m not sure if all the ethnic Russians in Crimea are citizens of Ukraine. A analogy that was made irl was if all the immigrants and citizens from South and Central America wanted a piece of Texas or California as its own territory and just took over in the name of one of those countries.

It’s ethnocentrism at its best, you see. It also comes down to ethnic identity v. national identity – Americans should know this struggle all too well!

The other half of me says that if the people of a local region want to secede or be annexed, true democracy should let them. If northern Maine wanted to be part of Canada, who is the US to to stop it? Wait, right, the UNITED States.

The Russians sure “stocked the pond” on this one, with its ethnic Russian citizens and descendants in Crimea who have eschewed or are willing to forfeit Ukrainian citizenship (of they ate true citizens of Ukraine). It’s subtle colonialism and overt strategic future economic planning. As I’ve said before, this has shades of Northern Ireland coloring Ukraine Green all over, with Crimea as a bit of Orange…painted by Russia, of course.

And Ukraine losing Crimea does not help the economic outlook.

When I was little, we sent care packages to “the old country.” We put in six candy bars in hopes the recipient would receive just one. I’d better start putting together care packages now. War or no war, someone in the old country is going to need one sooner rather than later.

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t see it as colonialism, more like the West trying to carve up what was left of the Russian empire. Don’t be surprised if the next target is Belarus or Kazakhstan.

 

[gilliam]

I don’t see it as colonialism, more like the West trying to carve up what was left of the Russian empire. Don’t be surprised if the next target is Belarus or Kazakhstan.

The Russian empire? Other than Putin who thinks there is a Russian empire anymore?

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Panorama_dentro.JPG/450px-Panorama_dentro.JPG
A little history lesson for those who don’t know. The Crimean War

 

[gilliam]

Actually Germany is doing more in this case than the US. I know people like to hate the US, but we are pretty much hands off in this instance.

 

[josie_L]

Wow, I’m just amazed at the leeway given to Russia, by some posters on here!!!

 

[josie_L]

Yes, the American Empire under Obama is really scary!!! Can anyone say oxymoron?

 

[pepipop]

I don’t see it as colonialism, more like the West trying to carve up what was left of the Russian empire. Don’t be surprised if the next target is Belarus or Kazakhstan.

Exactly, and their $5 billion bargain-buy has possibly let them get a way in.

 

[josie_L]

If you believe that Obama is a greater threat to world peace than Putin, who am I to argue?? But here’s a little taste of who Putin really is:

“[T]he demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said in 2005.

That says a lot.

 

[pepipop]

If you believe that Obama is a greater threat to world peace than Putin, who am I to argue?? But here’s a little taste of who Putin really is:

“[T]he demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said in 2005.

That says a lot.

As a stand alone it can be construed as such. However when added to the remainder of his sentence within that speech it makes more sense:

*“The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-political catastrophe of the century. And for the Russian people, it became a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens found themselves outside the Russian Federation…”

• Russia “will decide for itself the pace, terms and conditions of moving towards democracy”.
• “Any unlawful methods of struggle … for ethnic, religious and other interests contradict the principles of democracy.”
• “In past years we have taken several major steps in the fight against terror. But … the threat is still very strong. We are taking very painful blows. Criminals are still committing dreadful acts with the aim of intimidating society.”*