Ukraine

[Miserissima]

I don’t see it as colonialism, more like the West trying to carve up what was left of the Russian empire. Don’t be surprised if the next target is Belarus or Kazakhstan.

In that train of thought, not Belarus because a. No economic interest and b. Too much aid to medical fallout from Chernobyl with no economic return.

Not anything “-stan” because of a. No economic interest and b. Unpopular Muslim interest/participation.

 

[Miserissima]

If you believe that Obama is a greater threat to world peace than Putin, who am I to argue?? But here’s a little taste of who Putin really is:

“[T]he demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said in 2005.

That says a lot.

I learned about this in high school, never expecting to be in the Balkans. Without a federated union, war among newly emerging countries emerged, using ethic identity as a way to land grab, especially for economic resources.

 

[josie_L]

As a stand alone it can be construed as such. However when added to the remainder of his sentence within that speech it makes more sense:

“The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-political catastrophe of the century. And for the Russian people, it became a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens found themselves outside the Russian Federation…”

• Russia “will decide for itself the pace, terms and conditions of moving towards democracy”.
• “Any unlawful methods of struggle … for ethnic, religious and other interests contradict the principles of democracy.”
• “In past years we have taken several major steps in the fight against terror. But … the threat is still very strong. We are taking very painful blows. Criminals are still committing dreadful acts with the aim of intimidating society.”

Maybe you missed the fact that he’s ex KGB, or the fact that he lauds Soviet criminals (read Kyiv’s last post), or the fact that since his rule he’s revived the Soviet anthem, or that. . . .

Mr. Putin, who served as a colonel in the KGB intelligence agency, has resurrected some communist symbols during his presidency, bringing back the music of the old Soviet anthem and the Soviet-style red banner as the military’s flag.

In the 50-minute address at the Kremlin, Mr. Putin avoided mentioning the need to work more closely with other former Soviet republics — in contrast to previous addresses — and made passing reference to the treatment of Russian-speaking minorities in former Soviet republics.

“First and foremost, it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Mr. Putin said.

“As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory. The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself.”

Russia regularly complains about discrimination against Russian-speaking minorities, particularly in the Baltic countries of Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. There was no immediate reaction from officials in the three countries, which have often stormy relations with Moscow.

Mr. Putin’s popularity has been bruised in the past year by widespread street protests over painful social security reforms and his unsuccessful attempts to head off a popular uprising in the former Soviet republic of Ukraine.

Critics also have criticized the Russian leader for reacting to terrorist attacks last year by pushing through legislation ending the election of independent lawmakers and the popular elections of provincial governors.

The 60th anniversary Victory Day celebrations, to be held May 9 in Moscow, will be a major celebration for Russia. Dozens of heads of state are expected to attend, including President Bush, French President Jacques Chirac and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Workers are frantically painting and scrubbing the city — **red, star-studded posters hailing war veterans are plastered throughout the capital and vintage Soviet war films are being shown almost nightly on television. **

washingtontimes.com/news/2005/apr/26/20050426-120658-5687r/?page=all

Ahh, those good old Soviet days, when the government could do whatever it wanted, to whomever it wanted.

 

[josie_L]

I learned about this in high school, never expecting to be in the Balkans. Without a federated union, war among newly emerging countries emerged, using ethic identity as a way to land grab, especially for economic resources.

Well, that’s what’s happening in Georgia, i.e., South Ossetia is being barricaded by Russian forces, which would more or less annex that region to Russia (they invaded Georgia in 2008).

Meanwhile, in Georgia, Russian forces have worked over the last few months to build barricades along the border of South Ossetia, the breakaway region that Putin’s forces have occupied since the 2008 war. Georgia sees the barricades as a gradual annexation.

thetrumpet.com/article/11102.19.0.0/asia/moscow-puts-the-soviet-squeeze-on-neighbor-nations?preview

 

[Seamus_L]

Most Westerners can’t figure it out, but the reason that Vladimir Putin is popular in Russia is because he stands up to America-NATO. America’s increasing support for perversion in the West and radical Islam in the Middle East doesn’t go over well everywhere.

 

[josie_L]

For whom?

 

[pepipop]

For whom?

For the Russian government and its’ people.

Imagine if a similar scenario occurred in the USA, 50% of the states went it alone and became ‘whatever’, I am absolutely positive the acting president of the country remaining as the USA would make the same statement!

 

[josie_L]

For the Russian government and its’ people.

Imagine if a similar scenario occurred in the USA, 50% of the states went it alone and became ‘whatever’, I am absolutely positive the acting president of the country remaining as the USA would make the same statement!

Mere hypotheticals, and I don’t deal with hypotheticals, just reality.

 

[josie_L]

For the Russian government and its’ people.

Oh, yes the Russians prospered well under Soviet rule and so did the rest of the world, in fact, I’m sure Our Lady Fatima would agree!!!

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pope Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.[6]

 

[pepipop]

Mere hypotheticals, and I don’t deal with hypotheticals, just reality.

OK. I can’t actually find any quotes from Cameron regarding Scotland leaving the UK, however they’re being ‘bullied,’ to make sure they do not leave. One warning being they will not have access to the British pound and then the EU makes their move stating that Scotland could not leave the UK and become a stand alone EU member country, etc…

So no country (e.g. the UK) likes to see their great ‘empire’ disintegrated.

news.sky.com/story/1210805/osborne-warns-scotland-no-union-no-pound

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.html

bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26214193

 

[pepipop]

 

[Miserissima]

I am a descendant of John Redmond (Mr. political Suicide). That having been said, I assume this flag bears no orange.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

NOT wanting to start a war of words, but I wanted to link this article by Paul Craig Roberts here-----and the guy (personally to me) is NOT afraid to start one----------wanted to see how some here would react to this:

paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/23/democracy-murdered-protest-ukraine-falls-intrigue-violence/

The Ukrainian right-wing is in a stronger position than Washington’s paid Ukrainian puppets, essentially weak and irrelevant persons who sold out their country for Washington’s money. The Right Sector is organized. It is armed. It is indigenous. It is not dependent on money funneled in from Washington and EU financed NGOs. It has an ideology, and it is focused. The Right Sector doesn’t have to pay its protesters to take to the streets like Washington had to do.

Most importantly, well-meaning but stupid protesters–especially the Kiev students–and an Ukrainian parliament playing to the protesters destroyed Ukrainian democracy. The opposition controlled parliament removed an elected president from office without an election, an obvious illegal and undemocratic action. The opposition controlled parliament issued illegal arrest warrants for members of the president’s government. The opposition controlled parliament illegally released criminals from prison. As the opposition has created a regime of illegality in place of law and constitutional procedures, the field is wide open for the Right Sector. Expect everything the opposition did to Yanukovich to be done to them by the Right Sector. By their own illegal and unconstitutional actions,

Also. later on:

The American media is a useless news source. It serves as a Ministry for Government Lies. The corrupt propagandists are portraying the undemocratic removal of Yanukovich as a victory for freedom and democracy. When it begins to leak out that everything has gone wrong, the presstitutes will blame it all on Russia and Putin. The Western media is a plague upon humanity.

There is also these tidbits of “disagreement”:

paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/25/crisis-ukraine-paul-craig-roberts/

There is no doubt whatsoever that the coup is a strategic move by Washington to weaken Russia. Washington tried to capture Ukraine in 2004 with the Washington-funded “Orange Revolution,” but failed. Ukraine was part of Russia for 200 years prior to being granted independence in the 1990s. The eastern and southern provinces of Ukraine are Russian areas that were added to Ukraine in the 1950s by the Soviet leadership in order to water down the influence of the nazi elements in the western Ukraine that had fought for Adolf Hitler against the Soviet Union during World War 2.

The loss of Ukraine to the EU and NATO would mean the loss of Russia’s naval base on the Black Sea and the loss of many military industries. If Russia were to accept such strategic defeat, it would mean that Russia had submitted to Washington’s hegemony.

Whatever course the Russian government takes, the Russian population of eastern and southern Ukraine will not accept oppression by Ukrainian ultra-nationalists and neo-nazis.

Just thought I would link to this out there for folks to comment on.

Not saying I agree with these links/posts, necessarily:

Just thought I would throw these out there for the folks to agree/disagree with.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Just thought I would link to this out there for folks to comment on.

Not saying I agree with these links/posts, necessarily:

Just thought I would throw these out there for the folks to agree/disagree with.

My impression is that Ukraine has its internal divisions and that those divisions are very old. Western Ukraine was once part of the Catholic kingdom composed of Lithuania/Poland/Ukraine. It was resisted by the Orthodox cossacks, some of whom were agents of the Tsar and some of which were his bitter enemies. The Crimea was a Turkish possession until Imperial Russia took it by force.

Ukraine was added to the Russian Empire by force. It was briefly independent in the 20th Century, then again taken by force by the Soviets. The Soviets embarked on a genocidal program to rid the country of Ukrainians and fill it with ethnic Russians. It is now independent, but the old divisions are still there.

One would like to think Ukraine can be a united country under nobody’s domination. But that might not be possible. I cannot begin to picture western Ukrainians wanting ever to be under Russian rule again. If Ukraine is truncated in the future, it will be a very insignificant state in the west and no state at all in the east. The Crimea will be under Russian rule but will contain a significant number of very dissatisfied people.

But I have not the slightest doubt that Putin intends to so utterly dominate Ukraine that it might as well be part of Russia. Failing that, he will eventually sever the eastern part and the Crimea.

Something that I find remarkable in this thread is that some seem to excuse Russian imperialism. When has that been a happy history for its foreign subjects?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

My impression is that Ukraine has its internal divisions and that those divisions are very old. Western Ukraine was once part of the Catholic kingdom composed of Lithuania/Poland/Ukraine. It was resisted by the Orthodox cossacks, some of whom were agents of the Tsar and some of which were his bitter enemies. The Crimea was a Turkish possession until Imperial Russia took it by force.

Ukraine was added to the Russian Empire by force. It was briefly independent in the 20th Century, then again taken by force by the Soviets. The Soviets embarked on a genocidal program to rid the country of Ukrainians and fill it with ethnic Russians. It is now independent, but the old divisions are still there.

One would like to think Ukraine can be a united country under nobody’s domination. But that might not be possible. I cannot begin to picture western Ukrainians wanting ever to be under Russian rule again. If Ukraine is truncated in the future, it will be a very insignificant state in the west and no state at all in the east. The Crimea will be under Russian rule but will contain a significant number of very dissatisfied people.

But I have not the slightest doubt that Putin intends to so utterly dominate Ukraine that it might as well be part of Russia. Failing that, he will eventually sever the eastern part and the Crimea.

Something that I find remarkable in this thread is that some seem to excuse Russian imperialism. When has that been a happy history for its foreign subjects?

I myself hope for a totally independent (of Russia AND the EU) Ukraine----but I agree this might not be the best that can be wrought right now.

Just do not like the EU, for many reasons. It being an ultra-secular, quasi-socialistic collection of mostly irreligious states, for one. IMO.

I just have the feeling we as a country are being manipulated into something very disastrous.

Sincerely hope I am wrong.

Seriously.

 

[josie_L]

Most Westerners can’t figure it out, but the reason that Vladimir Putin is popular in Russia is because he stands up to America-NATO. America’s increasing support for perversion in the West and radical Islam in the Middle East doesn’t go over well everywhere.

America’s current administration is awful, however, if I had to pick my neighbour, it would still be the U.S… I am very very happy that I don’t have Russia as a neighbouring country.

P.S. Thank goodness, Alaska is an American state.

 

[gilliam]

As for the Ukraine even if the US wanted to do something, there is nothing we can do.

 

[josie_L]

OK. I can’t actually find any quotes from Cameron regarding Scotland leaving the UK, however they’re being ‘bullied,’ to make sure they do not leave. One warning being they will not have access to the British pound and then the EU makes their move stating that Scotland could not leave the UK and become a stand alone EU member country, etc…

So no country (e.g. the UK) likes to see their great ‘empire’ disintegrated.

news.sky.com/story/1210805/osborne-warns-scotland-no-union-no-pound

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.html

bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26214193

And that’s wrong, as is Russia’s intent to continue it’s soviet legacy via former soviet states.

 

[gilliam]

Report: Armed men seize airport in Ukraine’s Crimea

SEVASTOPOL, Ukraine — Dozens of armed men seized an airport in Ukraine’s Crimea region early Friday, according to a report from the Interfax news agency.

The 50 or so men were wearing the same uniforms as the armed men who took control of government buildings in the regional capital of Simferopol on Thursday and raised the Russian flag, witnesses reported.

The men who surrounded Simferopol Airport’s domestic flights terminal wore “Russian Navy ensigns,” Interfax reported.

usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/27/ukraine-yanukovych-whereabouts/5857331/

 

[HansTrappist]

Here is one of the leaders of the Ukrainian Opposition displaying his true colors:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=q8JC-ZjqFb4&app=m