Ukraine

[OrdinaryMelkite]

• In a televised address, Mr Turchynov said Moscow was trying to play out an “Abkhazian” plan, waiting for the Ukrainian side to react to provocations so that Moscow could annex Crimea.
• Mr Turchynov called on Russian President Putin to “stop provocations”, start negotiations and immediately “pull out” Russian troops.
• Ukraine’s acting leader said that the “Ukrainian army is not responding” to the provocations in Crimea.

Marker set

Meanwhile: Russian aircraft carrying nearly 2,000 suspected troops have landed at a military air base near Simferopo, senior Ukrainian official Sergiy Kunitsyn is reported by the AFP to have told Crimea’s ATR television channel. Mr Kunitsyn says 13 Russian planes have landed with 150 people in each one. (BBC)

Putin is not going to give up Ukraine-------and especially Crimea. Ukraine is too tied up with the ideal of the Russian Federation.

At the very least, I see East Ukraine breaking away and going with Russia and Western Ukraine going with the EU.

If that does not work, we may have war.

 

[josie_L]

Everybody knows what side Russia is on and what side the EU is on.
The EU favors LGBT “rights”, P- Riot, Femenism. Do you want the P-Riot group singing their foul mouthed lyrics and doing their thing in Catholic Churches? The Russian Orthodox don’t appreciate their music the way that many in the EU seem to. Do you want to see homosexual propaganda in kindergartens in grade schools? If so, go with the EU and oppose the laws which have been passed in Russia.

Russia is not a haven of morality, i.e., apart from the homosexual propaganda that they’ve outlawed, and putting emphasis on reducing abortion (being that at the moment abortions, I believe, outnumber live births). And the Ukraine will not fall into a morass of immorality by joining the EU or by creating closer economic ties with the West. Moreover, this is not simply a question of morality, but independence and economy as well (although poverty usually exacerbates immorality), the Ukraine has the right to assert itself. The ties that bind Ukraine and Russia are too lopsided, i.e., the Ukrainians are at a serious disadvantage economically and politically. Thus, the Ukraine needs to branch out and away from Russian influence (which has caused much of the massive corruption we have seen in the Ukraine) for greater economic and political freedom, otherwise, things will remain as they are (hence the reason they wish to reinstate Yanukovych).

 

[josie_L]

Well at least, Russia has not been found to be spying on all the other countries of the world, ‘friends’ and otherwise nor to spying on its’ own population.

Operative words being “has not been found”, i.e., it doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. And if you think the U.S. is the only country doing this . . . . .

 

[stevegravy]

Well as things go I predict this ends with a Ukraine partition. Crimea back to mother Russia and a rump broke state left for the EU to fix. Who is going to stop Russia when they decide to move the tanks.?

 

[Miserissima]

Operative words being “has not been found”, i.e., it doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. And if you think the U.S. is the only country doing this . . . . .

a quick Google search for “Russia spying on it’s own people” and you can take your pick of reputable resources.

 

[pepipop]

Operative words being “has not been found”, i.e., it doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. And if you think the U.S. is the only country doing this . . . . .

Well they were the only ones ‘caught’, and as they are spying on the other countries they no doubt should know who else is spying on others. They’ve had plenty of time to squeal and point the finger at other countries that are spying.

 

[josie_L]

Those are false accusations against Putin and have no basis in fact.

Yes, everything we say about Putin is false, and everything you say about him is true (don’t bother to read my posts or that of Kyiv’s which support our views).

 

[grotto]

Well they were the only ones ‘caught’, and as they are spying on the other countries they no doubt should know who else is spying on others. They’ve had plenty of time to squeal and point the finger at other countries that are spying.

---

Why not keep to the discussion of this thread; these are serious times for people and the situation doesn’t need exploitation for other purposes.

 

[josie_L]

Well they were the only ones ‘caught’, and as they are spying on the other countries they no doubt should know who else is spying on others. They’ve had plenty of time to squeal and point the finger at other countries that are spying.

Do a google search of countries spying on other countries, you might find some interesting information.

 

[josie_L]

I feel the same way too.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Who is going to stop Russia when they decide to move the tanks.?

Ukrainians, who ethnically make up 78% of Ukraine’s population. They suffered too much at the hands of the Kremlin in history, whether by the Tsars who continually outlawed and persecuted their language and culture and brought in serfdom, whether by the communist Kremlin which orchestrated the Holodomor which killed about 5 million in Ukraine and which Kremlin murdered Ukraine’s intelligentsia and churchmen, or whether at the hands of Putin’s Kremlin which up until now has used economic blackmail and political blackmail but is bringing its military in now.

Many will fight, even old women and kids, probably, if Putin really wants to go that way. They will never submit to the Kremlin again, which has been such a baleful force on Ukrainians.

 

[josie_L]

KyivAndrew happens to be fully aware of Ukrainian history and politics (being that he’s Ukrainian and has actually been to the Ukraine), do you wish to have a conversation with him instead? Or will you suggest that he too improve his knowledge of Ukrainian/ Russian relations, being that you’re an expert on all things regarding Russia?

 

[gilliam]

The head of police in Sevastopol, Gen Vitaliy Malikov, has resigned according to the ATR television channel. (BBC Monitoring)

THIS IS INTERESTING: Turchynov to veto the Rada decision to repeal the language law. Turchynov vetoes cancellation of language bill is significant. Had been viewed as a snub to Russian speakers. Some in the Crimea had complained.

BBC: Visitors to the YanukovychLeaks.org website can browse through what appear to be the expense payments for running the sprawling compound of the former president’s home just outside Kiev, AP reports.

White House Press Secretary Carney says US watching closely to see if Russia crosses “intervention line” in Ukraine.

Ukraine’s UN Ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev says “we are strong enough to defend ourselves”, Reuters reports.

Ukraine is not the pushover that Georgia was.

Here is the statement by Ukrainian acting president Oleksandr Turchynov

"In an act of naked aggression against Ukraine, and under the pretense of military exercises, Russia has brought military forces into the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Not only have they seized Crimea’s parliament and Council, they’ve tried to take control of civilian facilities and communications, and tried to block the positions of Ukrainian forces.
“They are provoking us into an armed conflict. Based on our intelligence, they’re working on scenarios analogous to Abkhazia, in which they provoke conflict, and then they start to annex territory.

“Ukraine’s military will fulfill its duties, but will not succumb to provocation, and is not entering into armed conflict, understanding the high danger that this would expose to the civilian population of Crimea.

“I personally address President Putin with the demand that he immediately end this provocation and recall troops from Crimea, and that we work within the frames of existing agreements.

“In 1994 Ukraine unilaterally renounced nuclear weapons in exchange for a guarantee of its safety from the US, Russia and Great Britain. … The whole civilized world supports Ukraine.”

“We are trying to neutralize this provocation, we are trying to normalize the situation. We are sure that Ukraine will preserve its territory, Ukraine will defend its independence, and any attempt at annexation, invasion, will have very serious consequences.”

 

[Miserissima]

I love this thread and it’s helped to bring me back to CAF.

Please stop talking about each other before this gets closed. I know it’s a hot button issue but there’s no need to go down that path. Let’s watch the war unfold before we have one here.

 

[KyivAndrew]

This is true, but it (the Famine in Russia and Ukraine in 1921-22) was not strictly an artificially orchestrated famine by the Kremlin. It was a result of the Civil War in Russia (War communism confiscation of foods from peasants as well as Whites vs Reds) and the independence wars of various nations like Ukraine. And, unlike during the Holodomor, the Kremlin accepted outside help from the West (Herbert Hoover) at that time whereas in 1932-33 Stalin refused to accept any outside help to starving Ukrainians, even when offered by Ukrainians in western Ukraine (Metropolitan Sheptytsky of the Ukrainian Catholic Church) then under interwar Poland. Stalin simply exported Ukraine’s wheat to the West and let the people die, forbidding starving Ukrainians from crossing the border into Soviet Russia in search of food.

In the 1920s the Kremlin accepted, initially very reluctantly, help from the West. You could say the US saved tons of lives in the Soviet Union, all out of humanitarian reasons back then. During the Holodomor, Stalin did not allow any help. He committed genocide.

Stalin’s Genocides by Norman Naimark is a good read on this.
books.google.ca/books?id=DFooT8zZ2hIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=stalin%27s+genocides&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Kv8QU8_lAsO02gXMt4GgBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stalin%27s%20genocides&f=false

 

[josie_L]

And what does that have to do with Ukrainian/Russian history/relations of which KyivAndrew is referring to?

 

[Megan7]

Russia has more legal restrictions against the world’s two greatest evils - Abortion and Sodomy - than does the West.

Russia currently is the only superpower with a Leader who is not afraid to defend Christianity in Public.

Russia has been converted and the errors of Russia have spread - to the West.

The demonization of Putin is predictable given his defense of traditional Christain values. The devil always attacks Nations and Men that respect the Natural and Moral Law.

Russia now has the Moral High Ground that the West abandoned.

Nicely said, thank you & God bless

 

[KyivAndrew]

Yes. Sorry for terse reply, but it’s dinner time over here.

 

[josie_L]

But you have not lived in the Ukraine!!! So what makes you an expert on Ukrainian/Russian relations other than that you lived in Russia? Moreover, I did not make the claim about the Russian military flag, the Washington Post did (in 2006), or did you not read my entire post? Moreover, if I have made “several odd claims” then please do bring them up, so I can deal with them, i.e., I have been doing my best to reply to all posts directed at me!

 

[josie_L]

That’s not what I said.