Ukraine

[TK421]

If the UN does go to war with Russia the real reason is because Putin rejected the gay agenda, and Russia is becoming more Christian. The left would rather that Russia return to communism.

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[esieffe]

Our current President is mad himself (sorry to be so blunt, but that is the way I feel)------to be honest, I would not be surprised if he decides to go ahead and listen to Neuland (who’s basically a neo-conservative) and others and goes ahead and goes to war with Russia.

You are expecting an immoral, socialist, purveyor of death-on-demand and gay marriage to act rationally on this?

Yeah, right…

When you fight a cold war, which is possible in this situation, the cold war playbook involves the use of proxies, innocent or otherwise. This is what Putin is risking. US and RF troops will never meet on the battlefield, just pawns.

It is more likely that Russia will be kicked out of the G8, which would be a well deserved slap in the face, which Putin would deserve should their troops cross the border.

 

[livingwordunity]

When you fight a cold war, which is possible in this situation, the cold war playbook involves the use of proxies, innocent or otherwise. This is what Putin is risking. US and RF troops will never meet on the battlefield, just pawns.

It is more likely that Russia will be kicked out of the G8, which would be a well deserved slap in the face, which Putin would deserve should their troops cross the border.

Haven’t all of these recent so-called “revolutions” been wars by proxy with the real ones behind it pretending to have nothing to do with it?

 

[esieffe]

Andrey Illarionov knows Vladimir Putin better than anybody here. He was Vladimir Putin’s senior economic adviser from 2000 and Putin’s personal representative to the G8 from 2000 to 2005. He wrote on his blog today, that:

“Putin is doing everything to start a full-scale civil war in Ukraine… to provoke one. The goal is to force and provoke the Ukrainian authorities to react, use force, shoot… for there to be losses. Corpses are required. Lots of corpses. The more the ‘better.’ The more glaring the deaths of this or that social group, the more effective [Putin’s] progaganda”

David Remnick from the New Yorker on CNN said Putin is “playing with fire” while General Spider Marks called it a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Thank you for that very important post! The Russian leadership are MASTERS of propaganda. Look how many fans they have right here in the CAF! This situation is much more grave then all the hot air from North Korea. Even if the US does not get involved, we could be talking about another Syria here.

The world has got to stand up to this aggression as firmly and as united as possible, so that lives are NOT lost, and civil ward does NOT happen. I will certainly be praying about this situation, and also that those people who have been deceived by Moscow’s ploys, open their eyes about who and what we are dealing with here!:knight2:

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen

 

[Seamus_L]

America and the UK should look at things consistently. If the mobs in Kiev decided the government of Viktor Yanukhovych was no longer legitimate, then they should also recognize perhaps, that the Russian majority population in Crimea have decided the same thing about the government in that region.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Thank you for that very important post! The Russian leadership are MASTERS of propaganda. Look how many fans they have right here in the CAF! This situation is much more grave then all the hot air from North Korea. Even if the US does not get involved, we could be talking about another Syria here.

The world has got to stand up to this aggression as firmly and as united as possible, so that lives are NOT lost, and civil ward does NOT happen. I will certainly be praying about this situation, and also that those people who have been deceived by Moscow’s ploys, open their eyes about who and what we are dealing with here!:knight2:

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen

Amen, Lord Have Mercy!
I agree esieffe.

 

[josie_L]

I think you also forget-----Putin is of the “old school” of Soviet-style states-craft-------you back down, you are showing weakness--------

Russia is not going to give up Ukraine without a fight. They consider it part of the standard Russian “motherland.” There is also the matter of the millions of ethnic Russians and Russian-leaning Ukrainians in the east and south central part of the country. And Crimea as well. Crimea has a Russian naval base there. An important one, as well. They have a say in this matter as well.

I sincerely hope you are right. But given the situation here-----it is not illogical or irrational to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Russian ethnics that were put there by Soviets after WWII, and the Ukraine is 78% Ukrainian stock (there are also Muslim Tatars in the Crimea who don’t want to be part of the Russian Federation).

 

[josie_L]

America and the UK should look at things consistently. If the mobs in Kiev decided the government of Viktor Yanukhovych was no longer legitimate, then they should also recognize perhaps, that the Russian majority population in Crimea have decided the same thing about the government in that region.

Russia wants to reinstate Yanukovych.

 

[esieffe]

Haven’t all of these recent so-called “revolutions” been wars by proxy with the real ones behind it pretending to have nothing to do with it?

Absolutely. This is the game that the US and the Soviets/ Russian Federation have been playing since WWII.

On occasion cold wars heat up, like the October missile crisis, but that is how it is done. It is evil, but this is what is going on. The danger is when someone miscalculates. The US and the Russians have done this as well.

Even Osama Bin Laden was quoted as having said “The US lacks the will to fight, they are weak.” A bad miscalculation on his part. The Japanese miscalculated when they bombed Pearl Harbor. We miscalculated with Iraq and Vietnam. This is how bad things happen. Our “leaders” drive their countries over cliffs. Earth is ruled by barbarians.

 

[Petaro]

Putin is a strong man, but may not gamble world peace on such a backward State like Ukraine . Obama is a weak man, but he is not that stupid to enter yet another war where there is not even the hint of oil.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Russian ethnics that were put there by Soviets after WWII, and the Ukraine is 78% Ukrainian stock (there are also Muslim Tatars in the Crimea who don’t want to be part of the Russian Federation).

Yes, josie L. There was also forced Russian resettlement into Ukraine even before WW2. The 1926 Soviet census showed there were 31 million Ukrainians in the USSR. The 1937 census (hidden by Stalin to hide the incredible decimation of Ukrainians during the genocidal Holodomor Famine and anti-Ukrainian purges and only recently declasified), showed only 26 million Ukrainians. Thus a direct loss of five million Ukrainian souls at the very least, a third of them starving children, over these 11 years (1926-1937). During the exact same 11 years, the ethnic Russians in in the USSR increased by 23%.

No wonder Stalin had the 1937 census banned; I don’t even know if he shot the census takers. After the Holodomor Famine (1932-33), Soviet Ukraine was covered by empty villages, death by starvation all around. As Robert Conquest made clear in his pioneering Harvest of Sorrow, these areas were repopulated by settlers from Soviet Russia.

It also marked the end of any pretense of Kremlin internationalism, and the Kremlin embarked upon a vigorous (and at times lethal, literally) campaign to Russify Ukraine and make the Ukrainian language and culture be marginalized if not put down. Ukraine’s Autocephalous Orthodox Church and later Ukraine’s Greek Catholic Church were all forced to join the Russian Orthodox basically at the point of a gun. Many of the Russian re-settlers took pride in never having to utter a single word in Ukrainian which they looked down upon, even though they were living in the land. It’s a tragic story.

I know wikipedia is not perfect but “Russification in Ukraine” does some of the explaining:

*In the Tsarist Russian Empire, in 1862, all Ukrainian Sunday schools, numbering over 100 at the time, were abolished and proscribed. In 1863, minister of internal affairs Petr Valuyev issued the so-called Valuev Circular, in which he stated that *the Ukrainian language never existed, doesn’t exist, and cannot exist. **
In Soviet times, Russification policy was more intense in Ukraine than in other parts of the Soviet Union

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

p.s. last week Lviv in western Ukraine, which is always portrayed as the hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism, a full day was declared Russian Language Day, news, papers (even nationalist ones), all in the Russian language. Unfortunately, proclaiming a full day of Ukrainian language in Russophone Donetsk let’s say on the other hand would be more hard. One language has historically been repressed, the other, Russian, is not under any threat of vanishing in Ukraine, believe me. One can just look at the numbers of periodicals in Russian in Ukraine.

In any event this whole issue is not Ukrainian vs Russian speaking; it’s predominantly: do you wish to live in a rule of law state, or under a corrupt regime supported by the Kremlin like Yanukovych’s. This division crosses linguistic and generational lines, and probably is best understood as people with a Sovietized mindset versus Ukrainians without one. Homo Sovieticus (i.e. protect Lenin statues, listen to the Kremlin) remains a big problem in Ukraine. And Yanukovych is Homo Sovieticus, and Putin’s background and makeup is Homo Sovieticus (laws curbing freedom of assembly, press, a strong secret police body modeled on Soviet secret police leaders, blaming everything on the West).

 

[livingwordunity]

Putin is a strong man, but may not gamble world peace on such a backward State like Ukraine. Obama is a weak man, but he is not that stupid to enter yet another war where there is not even the hint of oil.

Russian President Putin has consistently shown that he has more wisdom than Obama. The Boston bombing could have been avoided if the U.S. would have listened to Putin when he told us before hand that those guys posed a terrorist threat to America and that we should watch them.

 

[robwar]

You don’t have to stop with the Daily Mail, I am sure that would include most all American Jounralists as well.

 

[GraceSofia]

The Ukrainians have their naval base in Sevastopol, too. I hope the Russians don’t massacre all those boys there, as I imagine the Russians have overwhelming firepower and numbers.

BREAKING NEWS: Russian Troops Raid Crimea as Ukraine Condemns ‘Armed Invasion’

Russian Helicopter Fleet Closes in on Crimea

Obama Warns Moscow as 2,000 Russian Troops Descend on Crimea I be THAT scared Putin.

Russia Ready to go to War over Crimea This is a week old, but

“If Ukraine breaks apart, it will trigger a war,” the unnamed official told the Financial Times.

“They will lose Crimea first [because] we will go in and protect [it], just as we did in Georgia,” the official continued.

Please stop talking about each other before this gets closed. I know it’s a hot button issue but there’s no need to go down that path.

Yes, please. I report about one person a year, and it crossed my mind reading this thread.

 

[GraceSofia]

It won’t be hard at all. They’ll just ignore the treaty. A US-Russian war would be madness, and everybody knows it.

Treaties aren’t worth the paper… Britain was supposed to guarantee Cyprus’ independence, but when the Turks invaded, they didn’t do anything AND they had bases on the island.

America has lost all credibility. In the event of a war between Christian majority Armenia and Muslim majority Azerbaijan, it would be Russia with the Christians and America with the Muslims.

And (many) Muslims would still hate America. Look how much they appreciated America creating a Muslim state in the middle of Europe for them.

I think you also forget-----Putin is of the “old school” of Soviet-style states-craft-------you back down, you are showing weakness--------

Russia is not going to give up Ukraine without a fight. They consider it part of the standard Russian “motherland.” There is also the matter of the millions of ethnic Russians and Russian-leaning Ukrainians in the east and south central part of the country. And Crimea as well. Crimea has a Russian naval base there. An important one, as well. They have a say in this matter as well.

I sincerely hope you are right. But given the situation here-----it is not illogical or irrational to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

I think they will definitely fight and hold on to Crimea; I’m not sure whether they think it worth fighting for the rest of Ukraine. I think we are about to find out, though.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

What if a group from the Ukraine infiltrates a Russian military base and launches a nuke at the US to provoke the US to get involved against Russia? (Kind of like what happened in Star Trek VI: the undiscovered country.)

I think if something like this ever happened, I would end up being glad that O is in office. I think that he would just pretend the whole thing never happened, and he would not retaliate.

Read a news report earlier about a WH press briefing he gave, and the report of his comments and behavior when fielding a question regarding possible nuclear war with Russia was scary. I couldn’t tell if he was being overly cavalier or just plain clueless to the possible severity of the situation.

There’s no way that they get a nuke, but if they did drop a nuke on the US then you can bet your life that the USA is going to war. The outrage and pressure would be way too much for him to handle.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

America has lost all credibility. In the event of a war between Christian majority Armenia and Muslim majority Azerbaijan, it would be Russia with the Christians and America with the Muslims.

The U.S. is killing Muslims almost every week in Iraq and Afghanistan.

From 2004 to 2009, more than 66,000 civilians, surely almost all Muslims, perished in Iraq as a result of the U.S. invasion and subsequent occupation. That 66,000 only counts the civilians, and only counts the deaths between 2004 and 2009. I’m not sure what the count is if you throw Afghanistan in there or you start adding the military deaths. We’re probably looking at several hundreds of thousands of dead Muslims since 2001.

 

[Nelka]

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html#ixzz2ufSUR7H9

I don’t see anything major coming from this.

Its the Daily Mail, your wife is probably more quick-witted than half the journalists that work for that paper put together

My dog is more quick witted than those brownshirts.

Although, I don’t like your president whatsoever, I think Putin is tyrannical. And rationality needs to go both ways.

I always liked Putin, people hate him because he doesn’t promote homosexuality which is why he has a bad press in the UK.

 

[HansTrappist]

Thank you for that very important post! The Russian leadership are MASTERS of propaganda. Look how many fans they have right here in the CAF! This situation is much more grave then all the hot air from North Korea. Even if the US does not get involved, we could be talking about another Syria here.

The world has got to stand up to this aggression as firmly and as united as possible, so that lives are NOT lost, and civil ward does NOT happen. I will certainly be praying about this situation, and also that those people who have been deceived by Moscow’s ploys, open their eyes about who and what we are dealing with here!:knight2:

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen

No, you are wrong.

Western Media is the Master of Propaganda.

The West is directly responsible for the violence in Ukraine and for lying about the causes of these protests.

It was Victoria Nuland and John McCain, not Vladimir Putin, who traveled directly to Independence Square in Kiev to lend moral support to the militant Ukrainian “protesters.”

Obama, a man who has no problem seeing the brains sucked out of unborn children, has the gall to lecture Vladimir Putin. And commentators here on CAF act like Putin is the monster? LOL! This is the same Barack Obama who provided funds and arms to the “Syrian Rebels” who have done nothing but murder and torture Syria’s Catholic, Jewish and Alawite minorities in much the same way that the Ukrainian “protesters” murdered and maimed Ukrainian Police.

What is truly sickening, though, is witnessing so many commentators here on CAF irrationally attack Vladimir Putin and Russia. It is not just sickening but truly hypocritical and empty given the recent interventionist foreign policy of the once great, once Christian, once law-abiding United States of America.

It is well time to remember that we are Catholics first and Americans second.

 

[GaryTaylor]

In any event this whole issue is not Ukrainian vs Russian speaking; it’s predominantly: do you wish to live in a rule of law state, or under a corrupt regime supported by the Kremlin like Yanukovych’s. This division crosses linguistic and generational lines, and probably is best understood as people with a Sovietized mindset versus Ukrainians without one. Homo Sovieticus (i.e. protect Lenin statues, listen to the Kremlin) remains a big problem in Ukraine. And Yanukovych is Homo Sovieticus, and Putin’s background and makeup is Homo Sovieticus (laws curbing freedom of assembly, press, a strong secret police body modeled on Soviet secret police leaders, blaming everything on the West).

Sounds right to me.