Ukraine

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Kerry: “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in a 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pretext,”

What about Iraq mate?
 
Don’t forget America’s shameful actions in Panama in 1989. Where was the international community on that one ?
 
“You just don’t invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests," - John Kerry.

^ I think I laughed at that one for about five minutes.
 
Monkey1976 said:
It’s hard to say how serious this could become. The Crimea was part of Russia until Khrushchev “gave” it to the Ukraine in 1954, the population is almost entirely ethnic Russian - not Ukranian - and the Russian Navy’s largest warm-water base is there.

The smartest thing the “interim government” could do might be to simply cede the Crimea back to Russia and wash their hands of the problem altogether.
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Neville Chamberlain, is that you?

The problem with making little moves is that it encourages an aggressor to make bigger moves. You know the old saying, “You give an inch and they take a mile”. This map basically explains the possible results, but that’s just Ukraine. Putin keeps talking about how he “wants to protect Russians”. Well, there’s a lot of Russian citizens in former Soviet states (even more so when the Kremlin hands out Russian passports like candy, thereby providing their own future justification).
esieffe said:
I have been screaming that from the hilltops since all of this talk about Russia and it’s “suddenly new found” popularity began here. I have been simply dumbfounded by it all. Now the tiger has shown it’s stripes.
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So have I. Sure, everyone isn’t real pleased with the moral direction of the US, but throwing your adoration at a man like Putin … he’s not a great guy to put it nicely.
Vouthon said:
Actually, the “pro-Russian” protesters who took over two airports and the legislature have been shown by numerous news agencies to be a small minority. This has all the hallmarks of a calculated takeover of the Crimea. It is the age-old canard to make it appear like one’s army is going in to protect “minorities” in a state, so as to blithely conceal an armed invasion. For fear of invoking Goodwin’s law, consider 1938 Sudetenland crisis. Germany occupies the most industrialized and important region of Czechoslovakia because German minorities were agitating for union with the Reich and claiming that they were being discriminated against. Putin is using the exact same tactic. He is a former KGB master of intrigue.
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I agree. The way this is playing out is very reminiscent of the Anschluss (even Bloomberg thinks so).

And what does that make the President of the Russian Federation? The Second Coming of Christ?

Putin’s on a pretty clear power-grab and land-grab. Anyone with eyes can see that.
Nelka said:
Russia is in Crimea not the rest of Ukraine.

Crimea is semi-autonomous and asked Russia for help.

Crimea will just end up like Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

I think it will just die down after a while.
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And all of the above are against International Law regarding the territorial integrity of sovereign nations.
KyivAndrew said:
It’s interesting because ethnic Russians have not been beaten up on the Maidan, or Kyiv, or Lviv. If anything there are provocations in areas like Crimea which are now in the hands of the, let’s be clear, Russian military who, as Miserrisima stated, won’t even wear any insignia. There have already been provocative moves in Crimea to tarnish the pro-Ukrainian supporters. khpg.org/en/
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I could be wrong, but isn’t it a requirement of International Law (I think Geneva Conventions or something) that your military has to be identifiable? You know, you have to wear uniforms, can’t be plainclothes, and you have to identify your allegiance.
JordanJD said:
Russia has not sent one soldier or one military craft outside the Crimean peninsula, Putin said his goals are to protect Russian people in the Crimean region and so far that is all he has done.
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And I’m sure that even Neville Chamberlain would believe that. :roll eyes:

I haven’t checked lately, but is Iraq a client state of the US? How about Afghanistan? It seems to me like they’re being run by their own people and American troops have largely left. Unlike, say, Abkhazia and South Ossetia which have become de-facto annexed to Russia. And Russia looks like they’re going to be in the Crimean for the long-term.

When you are trying to play the Tu Quoque fallacy (which is still a fallacy…), it works better if the comparisons are approximately equal. For example, the American invasion of Afghanistan is more similar to the Soviet one then the Russian invasion of Georgia (which is in a totally different category).
 
TRH1292 said:
And, let’s get this straight. Germany did not randomly invade the Sudetenland in a manner similar to what is going on right now in Crimea.

Germany invaded Sudetenland and annexed it after the UK and France very foolishly told Hitler it would be acceptable for him to do so.

Putin/Russia is sending more troops into a province that they already have a military presence in, because the autonomous province is in a serious dispute with a new and perhaps illegitimate national government days after it was installed, and does not have adequate forces to protect themselves from an assault from said government.

Those are two very different situations.
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Not at all, actually. The only difference is that the Crimean invasion hasn’t evolved to that point yet. There are several people on this forum alone who have voiced the exact same opinion of “Just give Crimea to Russia”. Commentators (that have been quoted in many pages here) see this as Putin’s strategy of taking over little parts of the old Soviet empire at a time (starting with Georgia, and now the Ukraine).

And by the way, the only thing “illegitimate” about the government in Kiev is that they are not pro-Russian.
TRH1292 said:
“A number of high ranking Ukrainian military and security officials in Crimea have sworn their allegiance to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, as Simferopol pushes for its autonomy from the self-imposed government in Kiev.”

rt.com/news/military-commanders-sworn-allegiance-crimea-497/
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Again from RT. RT is a puppet of the Kremlin. It’s like calling the People’s Daily an unbiased source of news.
 
Yeah, please go on ignoring the 1994 referendum in which Crimeans voted overwhelmingly for separation from Ukraine
 
Medvedev said that, while Viktor Yanukovych had practically no authority, he remained the legitimate head of state according the constitution, adding: “If he is guilty before Ukraine - hold an impeachment procedure … and try him.”

He’s quite right. They did not impeach him according to their own Constitution. They seized power. It was a coup and this new dude is not the legitimate leader of the country.
 
JordanJD said:
At the back of Pentagon minds, no doubt, is the dream that a US navy will one day replace the Russian Black Sea fleet in the Crimean ports of Sevastopol and Balaclava."
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Not the Black Sea Fleet, impossible. Geez, I hope Putin doesn’t start feeling abandon and paranoid now. 😃 He’s probably worried about the G8. Sochi too.
 
Nelka said:
Kerry: “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in a 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pretext,”

What about Iraq mate?
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What about Iraq?
 
curlycool89 said:
I agree. The way this is playing out is very reminiscent of the Anschluss (even Bloomberg thinks so).
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Fascinating article, by a Russian no less.

The resemblances are uncanny. I defy anyone on this thread not to see a disturbing parallelism at work here…
“It is not only the same people but above all a long communal history and culture which bind together the Reich and Austria,” Adolf Hitler said in February, 1938.
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On March 11, Austrian Nazis seized power in Vienna, and the following day, Josef Goebbels read this statement from Adolf Hitler on German and Austrian radio: “The German Reich will not tolerate persecution of Germans in this region because they belong to our country or because they hold certain opinions. There must be peace and order. I have therefore decided to help the millions of Germans in Austria with the resources of the Reich. Since this morning, soldiers of the German Wehrmacht have marched over the German-Austrian borders. The new National Socialist government in Vienna has itself summoned panzer troops, infantry divisions, and SS legions on the ground and the German Luftwaffe in the blue sky. Our soldiers guarantee that the Austrian people will shortly be given the opportunity to determine their future themselves and thereby their fate with a plebiscite."
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In the plebiscite, held soon afterwards, 99.7561 percent of the “Austrian people” gave their support to the Anschluss.
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“We are one people”, Russian President Vladimir Putin said of Russians and Ukrainians in September 2013. “We have, unquestionably, common historical roots and a common destiny.”
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On Feb. 27, 2014, the local parliament in Ukraine’s Autonomous Republic of Crimea appointed Sergei Aksyonov, head of the Russian Unity Party, the republic’s prime minister and set a referendum for May 25 on expanding the autonomous government’s powers. The parliament was meeting in a building seized by armed people who wore no insignia but who raised a Russian flag.
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On March 1, Aksyonov asked Russian President Vladimir Putin for “aid in establishing peace and quiet” in the Crimea. Putin responded immediately by asking the Russian parliament for permission to invade Ukraine. The request mentioned “a threat to the lives of Russian citizens.” Permission was gleefully granted.
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He is definitely using Hitler’s foreign policy tactics.

I know that any comparison with Hitler sounds insane (I hate even having to admit it), but the similarities are stark.
 
JordanJD said:
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/not-too-late-for-ukraine-nato-should-back-off

*"Nato should refrain from interfering in Ukraine by word or deed. The fact that it insists on getting engaged reveals the elephant in the room: underlying the crisis in Crimea and Russia’s fierce resistance to potential changes is Nato’s undisguised ambition to continue two decades of expansion into what used to be called “post-Soviet space”, led by Bill Clinton and taken up by successive administrations in Washington.

At the back of Pentagon minds, no doubt, is the dream that a US navy will one day replace the Russian Black Sea fleet in the Crimean ports of Sevastopol and Balaclava."*
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Yes of course - the US is a reactionary imperial capitalist power bent on world domination. Reminds me of the Cold war.
 
The US propaganda, I think that’s part of the mandatory after work indoctrination state program of Putin talked about above. 😛
 
United States: We reserve the right to invade, occupy and/or bomb any country in the world for whatever BS reason we can come up with, but Russia, don’t you dare do any self-defense operations along your borders, why that would be aggressive and a threat to world peace…
 
Are you talking about Poland? Because although the made a weak statement regarding Ukraine’s sovereignty, they then leery Russia, send MORE trips to their border.

Poland did not join Latvia and Lithuania for pleas against military action from Russia.

And there is also a long and bitter history between Poland and Ukraine.
 
JordanJD said:
Yeah, please go on ignoring the 1994 referendum in which Crimeans voted overwhelmingly for separation from Ukraine
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Given that the Soviets pretty much removed the native population of the Crimea and replaced it with ethnic Russians that shouldn’t really be a surprise. Or are we ignoring history that took place prior to 1994?
 
JordanJD said:
United States: We reserve the right to invade, occupy and/or bomb any country in the world for whatever BS reason we can come up with, but Russia, don’t you dare do any self-defense operations along your borders, why that would be aggressive and a threat to world peace…
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You know this is just some silly little trumped up pip-squeak excuse for a proper argument. :rolleyes:

Maybe the US is this that or the other thing, maybe it has done this that or the next thing, maybe it has invaded illegally this that or the next thing…

Regardless, this is no excuse for Russia’s actions. There is international law and when countries break it, they have broke it. Like criminals on the national level other nations and international organisations are entitled to take measures against states that contravene law and order.

If a proper response was or wasn’t given once to the US, who cares? It doesn’t help us at the moment. It is irrelevant.

That doesn’t excuse what Russia has done. It is just a stupid diversion from what Russia is doing that does not actually make a proper justification for their actions.
 
JordanJD said:
Germany: Putin accepts Merkel contact group idea
news.yahoo.com/germany-putin-accepts-merkel-contact-group-idea-202813058.html

German foreign minister against excluding Russia from G8
news.yahoo.com/german-foreign-minister-against-excluding-russia-g8-195939270.html

Funny how Germany is the only grown up right now among NATO. And they have every reason to dislike Russia, historically speaking.
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Germany has legit reasons to dislike Russia? When exactly did Russia ever do anything to Germany?
 
ishii said:
Didn’t they just seize Crimea? Last I checked, that is part of Ukraine.

Ishii
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Nope, they placed their troops in Crimea, as per a previously signed agreement that has being accepted,for years, between both countries.
 
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