Ukraine

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KyivAndrew said:
Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not the leader of a Ukrainian neo-Nazi party and anyone who says so is lying. (Look up the Batkivshchyna Party) The Ukrainian military is bravely accepting orders from Kyiv and not responding to the massive provocations from Putin’s forces who are itching for a fight apparently. One Ukrainian naval commander has defected, possibly due to the enormous coercion Ukrainian military entities have come under. I think one Ukrainian military base just had to repulse a Russian attempt at sabotaging its electricity supply. What is the point of all this? To maximize the chance of death of innocent young men. People are going to die because Putin is doing this, not the Ukrainians, but Putin.

I note how mighty Putin arrested an assembly of Russian anti-war protestors in Moscow using the ruthless OMON, while a rally, possibly staged, assembled no problems in Moscow. Obviously Putin runs an autocratic state. Most Ukrainians do not wish to live in an autocratic state.
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This makes total sense to me. I have no idea why some here are defending Russia’s actions. Perhaps some are for longstanding family reasons. It amazes me to hear people bring up Iraq and Afghanistan as reasons to support a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Then they call an invasion a “placement of troops.” I guess the truth is the big casualty here.

Ishii
 
JordanJD said:
Wrong, the units without insignias are contractors (think Blackwater) working for several pro-Russian groups in Crimea. Regular Russian military units are still at normal levels

Here we go again, falling back on the Hitler argument :rolleyes:

That’s right: It was defaced by the neo-nazis who are agitating Russia right now: twitter.com/MillerMENA/status/439464222011830272/photo/1
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You know I have no idea who you are other than the fact that you just joined CAF today, are a trial member, and have gone on to lecture several old CAF stalwarts all within one day with numerous non-stop posts. Your information is wrong in any event. The current leaders of Ukraine’s government are Yatseniuk, Turchynov, and Klichko - all moderate democrats. This government has been supported by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in Ukraine as well as the Chief Rabbi who have criticized Putin’s intervention. You evidently know better.
 
JordanJD said:
Do you have a hard time with reading comprehension? I was saying Germany had every right to hate Russia for doing that. But since we are talking Nazi’s vs Communists I really don’t think either side was in the right in that war.

conspiracy theory? It’s no conspiracy, it is right out there in the open. President George Bush literally talked about it in his state of the union address in 1991 and was promoting it!

youtube.com/watch?v=byxeOG_pZ1o
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Wow! Are there guidelines for everyone that uncharitable comments are inflammatory? youtube really? Why not just blame George Bush … again, and again…:sleep:
 
KyivAndrew said:
Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not the leader of a Ukrainian neo-Nazi party and anyone who says so is lying. (Look up the Batkivshchyna Party) The Ukrainian military is bravely accepting orders from Kyiv and not responding to the massive provocations from Putin’s forces who are itching for a fight apparently. One Ukrainian naval commander has defected, possibly due to the enormous coercion Ukrainian military entities have come under. I think one Ukrainian military base just had to repulse a Russian attempt at sabotaging its electricity supply. What is the point of all this? To maximize the chance of death of innocent young men. People are going to die because Putin is doing this, not the Ukrainians, but Putin.

I note how mighty Putin arrested an assembly of Russian anti-war protestors in Moscow using the ruthless OMON, while a rally, possibly staged, assembled no problems in Moscow. Obviously Putin runs an autocratic state. Most Ukrainians do not wish to live in an autocratic state.
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Gee that’s funny because in the last 2 elections there were antiwar protests in front of both the Democratic and Republican conventions and in both instances they were forced to relocate or get arrested.
 
grotto said:
Wow! Are there guidelines for everyone that uncharitable comments are inflammatory? youtube really? Why not just blame George Bush … again, and again…:sleep:
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“I asked you for evidence for the NWO and you gave me direct video evidence and now that I have egg on my face instead of admitting I was wrong I will say something about blaming Bush despite the fact no one said that ever”
 
JordanJD said:
Well then let me ask for the 2nd, actually 3rd time, please give me SPECIFIC and EXACT answer as to what Obama should have said or done differently than he already has?
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I didn’t realize you asked me 3 times. My comment is that Obama has acted weak his entire presidency. That is part of the problem. Perhaps if he had been decisive during his presidency then Putin would at least expect some kind of response - be it economic sanctions, etc. I realize that just as was the case with the similar situations - Soviet invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, there is little we can do militarily. What can we do? As George Will said, Russia is basically a 3rd world country economically and very vulnerable as such. We ought to start there. Weakness, indecision and lack of resolve has historically been a dangerous combination - as it encourages aggression.

Ishii
 
JordanJD said:
Do you have a hard time with reading comprehension?
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I know this is a hot button issue and Lord knows I’ve had to censor myself and edit posts. This was uncharitable and I (and presumably most posters here) would like to keep this thread open.
 
JordanJD said:
United States: We reserve the right to invade, occupy and/or bomb any country in the world for whatever BS reason we can come up with, but Russia, don’t you dare do any self-defense operations along your borders, why that would be aggressive and a threat to world peace…
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Well, that settles it doesn’t it, the U.S. did it so why can’t Russia, because really this is ALL about the U.S. and Russia, NOT the Ukrainians!!
 
KyivAndrew said:
You know I have no idea who you are other than the fact that you just joined CAF today, are a trial member, and have gone on to lecture several old CAF stalwarts all within one day with numerous non-stop posts.
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And that is relevant how? I did not realize evidence relied upon how long you were stuck in your basement posting on a web forum
KyivAndrew said:
as well as the Chief Rabbi who have criticized Putin’s intervention.
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You mean the same Rabbi who warned about the neo-nazi protestors?

*Ukrainian Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman, called on Kiev’s Jews to leave the city and even the country if possible, fearing that the city’s Jews will be victimized in the chaos, Israeli daily Maariv reported Friday.

“I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city all together and if possible the country too,” Rabbi Azman told Maariv. “I don’t want to tempt fate,” he added, “but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.”

According to the paper’s report Azman closed the Jewish community’s schools but still holds three daily prayers. He said the Israeli embassy told members of the Jewish community to avoid leaving their homes.*
 
ishii said:
I didn’t realize you asked me 3 times. My comment is that Obama has acted weak his entire presidency. That is part of the problem. Perhaps if he had been decisive during his presidency then Putin would at least expect some kind of response - be it economic sanctions, etc. I realize that just as was the case with the similar situations - Soviet invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, there is little we can do militarily. What can we do? As George Will said, Russia is basically a 3rd world country economically and very vulnerable as such. We ought to start there. Weakness, indecision and lack of resolve has historically been a dangerous combination - as it encourages aggression.

Ishii
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Unbelievable, you avoided my question yet again! So I will ask ANOTHER time: What would you say or do differently than Obama has in the last 2 to 3 days?
 
JordanJD said:
Unbelievable, you avoided my question yet again! So I will ask ANOTHER time: What would you say or do differently than Obama has in the last 2 to 3 days?
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It is too late to suddenly try to come off as a decisive and resolute leader. It probably doesn’t matter what Obama says in the past two or three days. That is why I don’t support him. Note that I did say what we ought to do in response to this invasion. 🤷

As someone who has had to learn the hard way, might I respectfully remind you that there are charity standards on this forum - for what its worthy. Its nice to have different opinions, but I’m guessing most would consider them if they were expressed in such a strident manner.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
It is too late to suddenly try to come off as a decisive and resolute leader.
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Huh?! What?! What on earth does that mean? What does being “decisive and resolute” have to do with a conflict across the globe that is none of our business?
ishii said:
It probably doesn’t matter what Obama says in the past two or three days.
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I guess this is the closest i am going to get to making you admit that Obama did exactly the right thing
 
josie_L said:
And did you know that Yanukovych is a puppet of Putin?
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You mean the “puppet” who was democratically elected by the majority of Ukraine under a fair election monitored by international observers, including our own?
 
JordanJD said:
You mean the “puppet” who was democratically elected by the majority of Ukraine under a fair election monitored by international observers, including our own?
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He’s a puppet and now he’s gone to his puppet master for help. 🙂
 
“Weakness” “indecision” “lack of resolve” I love these keywords used over and over by the warmonger chickenhawks, because logically if you want a leader who is the opposite of that then you literally admit you are a fan of Stalin, Tamerlane, Ghengis Khan, etc
 
curlycool89 said:
And by the way, the only thing “illegitimate” about the government in Kiev is that they are not pro-Russian.

Again from RT. RT is a puppet of the Kremlin. It’s like calling the People’s Daily an unbiased source of news.
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Exactly, and according to a CAF mod. RT is not encouraged on CAF, though some people here link to conspiracy sites with people commenting on Ukraine on these sites who don’t have the faintest understanding of Ukraine’s history, but feel free to comment because they are self-declared experts on neo-cons, American imperialism, zionism, etc.
 
JordanJD said:
Huh?! What?! What on earth does that mean? What does being “decisive and resolute” have to do with a conflict across the globe that is none of our business?

I guess this is the closest i am going to get to making you admit that Obama did exactly the right thing
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Being decisive and resolute means that leaders know exactly what they can and cannot get away with. It also makes them understand that there will be consequences. I wonder if Putin thought the response from the west would be swift and punitive - would he still have invaded? Who knows, but I I seriously doubt Putin has for one second been concerned about what Obama will do in response. Obama is weak. Further, I believe that it is very much our business - just as the similar invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia were our business. I am not concerned about what Obama says or doesn’t say now. His whole foreign policy has been a failure. That is my main concern.

Ishii
 
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