Ukraine

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Well my friend… sometimes that’s all there is.
Quite a pickle, as we say out here. Or as another American said today: Putin’s playing chess while Obama’s playing marbles.

I don’t think the US or NATO really can do anything about this. The Crimea was really a territory of Russia even prior to this last week; in practice, if not in name. The US isn’t going to start WWIII over this and we aren’t going to ask American taxpayers to spend $30 billion to bail out Kiev because their last series of leaders were corrupt.

Putin is willing to spend the money to create a greater Russia. Maybe they should take it.
 
Gilliam and Andrew, thank you. 😊

I do think it’s interesting that Poland is throwing it’s hat in with Ukraine. Perhaps enough time has passed since the Polish–Ukrainian War. I know, I know, it was almost a century ago but my family still talks about it, and anecdotally I spoke with a Polish Immigrant about it recently and we had to agree to disagree.

And since Warsaw was nuked in the last war games, I see the flip side where I wouldn’t be the one to poke the bear too much. Maybe just fling a pebble at it. 😉

I heard from my family that two are still not in touch with family but the rest are “cold and safe.” I’m.starting to put care packages together again (with six chocolate bars so at least one gets to the recipient) because when the mail gets going regularly again, I’m expecting it to be like the old days.
 
Putin arrests 40, while Obama arrests hundreds today. Actually it was neither Putin nor Obama, but the local police. Still, there were hundreds of young students arrested today in Washington, DC as they tried to protest near the white house.
huffingtonpost.com/jamie-henn/keystone-xl-protest_b_4886208.html
If you take time to read the article the kids wanted to be arrested. The purposely went through the motions to obstruct traffic so whey would be arrested. They get arrested, peacefully, they get processed, they get released, and oh, by the way, they get on the news. It is all part of the protest event as planned. In fact they seemed to be trying to break some kind of record. Here is a bit more on the event. They warned the police about it ahead of time, and it was all staged quite nicely with the police playing their part in a way so that no one was hurt.
foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/02/keystone-pipeline-protesters-arrested-outside-white-house/

Not exactly the same as what happens in Russia.
 
Putin arrests 40, while Obama arrests hundreds today. Actually it was neither Putin nor Obama, but the local police. Still, there were hundreds of young students arrested today in Washington, DC as they tried to protest near the white house.
huffingtonpost.com/jamie-henn/keystone-xl-protest_b_4886208.html
Yes, I left when it started raining. As usual, there is nothing against the right to peaceably assemble, they didn’t get a PERMIT. :rollseyes:

That’s not Obama. That’s the DC local government. And that, my friend, is a whole 'nother thread. 😉
 
Yes, I left when it started raining. As usual, there is nothing against the right to peaceably assemble, they didn’t get a PERMIT. :rollseyes:

That’s not Obama. That’s the DC local government. And that, my friend, is a whole 'nother thread. 😉
I did not bring up the question of people being arrested for protesting. It was brought up by someone else on this thread who thought it was unfair for Moscow police to arrest 40 protestors, while at the same time hundreds of protestors are arrested in the city of Washington, DC.
 
Putin is willing to spend the money to create a greater Russia. Maybe they should take it.
The only problem is that Putin’s signature is not worth much. In previous gas deals signed with previous Ukrainian administrations agreeing on a gas price let’s say for 3 years, Putin would solely change the contract a third of the way through and up the price of gas, in effect breaking the contract but Putin kept the contract. Nothing could be done, and the increased price stood, until it was increased again.

The same thing with the 15 billion dollar loan he offered. Analysts who looked at it pointed at the real danger of Putin just upping the interest rate continually higher to milk Ukraine for all its worth when he claimed the loan. Putin isn’t willing to spend money, but lend money, and he has a history of singularly changing the conditions and what can one do? Doesn’t seem like he would listen to arbitration if a conflict developed between the Ukrainian and Russian sides and he would resort to blackmail if needed. Look at the blackmail Putin resorted to to force Armenia to join his Eurasian Union, when Armenia desperately was aiming for the EU. Apparently, Putin read the leaders of Armenia all the harmful consequences they would suffer if they even tried to join the EU. So there Armenia is in Putin’s Eurasian Union. Putin apparently was quite thorough in arguing with Yanukovych about all the bones he would break if Yanukovych signed with Europe.

And any deal would come at a cost: Putin would swallow up Ukraine’s internal assets, its pipelines, its factories, its sovereignty basically, and ship profits back to Moscow, back to himself and his oligarch friends, not to ordinary Ukrainians. Like the Guardian says, Putin runs a virtual mafia state.

I don’t think Ukrainians really would see a future for their kids in such a state, but would emigrate. Any agreements with Putin would also come at a political cost which would eventually turn Ukraine into a colony for Moscow, in my opinion. After what’s happened this past week with Putin, I can’t see this being agreed to at all by the majority of Ukrainians.

Just my two cents.
 
The alternatives aren’t much better. Like a domestic violence victim who left without safety plan.
 
We pray peace, Brothers Sisters, and peace to Russian and Ukraine. Think of it: Ukraine has nothing to fight, And we pray Russian and Ukraine can make a agreement and peace; think, then, no matter Russian or Ukraine or any other countries, no one want war, no one would want see loved ones walk on the street and there are bullets? We pray peace !

Hail Mary! Full of Grace!
 
Putin doesn’t respect the US because Obama and Kerry are effete liberals - much like Jimmy Carter in the 1970’s. I recall the meeting between Medvedev and Obama in which Obama said something like, “don’t worry, I’ll have much more flexibility after the election.” Recall JordanJD that this is an administration that invites the muslim brotherhood into the white house and stood idly by while the intelligence showed a likely terrorist attack on our embassy in Libya. I don’t blame Putin at all for not respecting a weak president like Obama. I don’t respect him either. Too often instead of leadership from Obama we get, “um…uhhh…uhhh…er…ummm.”

Ishii
Obama has squandered any moral authority the US had by keeping quiet while Islamists terrorised Christians in Egypt last summer and continue to do so in Syria, etc. Benghazi. To people in the East and M.E., this is incomprehensible. Then he had a hissy-fit about homosexuals and refused to go to the Olympics. He doesn’t come off as a serious statesman. (I am not defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but) Putin has more gravitas, IMO.
Ah so! The game plan by someone on this thread is to get it shut down! Not gonna happen!
Just a general reminder in case some don’t know or have forgotten, it is possible to set your preferences so that a user’s posts are blocked from your view.
I don’t know about other people, but generally on international news (especially European) I trust the BBC most. The AP and Reuters have also been doing a good job. I haven’t read anything by Fox or MSNBC (and only a few things by CNN).

I’ve distrusted news coming out of Russia for years, no matter what branding.
The BBC is good except they try omit or bury anything that makes Muslims look bad (the web site, that is). I am starting to like Reuters more and more. For this particular story, this thread has been helpful in identifying news sources. I am looking at the BBC, the Guardian, twitter from Shaun Walker and Ukrainian Updates, espresso.tv, and quickly checking on RT.
You know, Putin is really making the situation in Ukraine tragic, worse than I initially thought possible of him. He claims to be defending lives in Ukraine, but the biggest risk of violence and killing comes at the hands of the deceitfully unmarked and masked Russian armed forces he has sent into Crimea in the thousands.

What other country would tolerate a foreign force surrounding and blocking access to its own country’s armed units on its own territory? In Crimea, Ukrainian military bases are surrounded by these men in masks without military identification who now are apparently trying to block off communication to these Ukrainian bases, steal their arms from them, keep them hostage, and fool them into surrendering - young Ukrainian guys soldiers, with parents worried about them, surrounded by a numerically overwhelming foreign force at the command of the KGB President in the Kremlin. No military insignia, just masks on the Russian forces. If Putin is worried about violent gangs, well the best armed is the gang (it’s not an army as it’s unmarked) he has sent in in the thousands into Crimea who are now playing with stealing weapons from Ukrainian forces legally there, and with Russian forces illegally there as per the 1994 Budapest Treaty on Ukraine’s inviolable borders and per the lease given to Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Putin has broken international law.
Agree.
I feel so bad for those young men trapped in the Ukrainian bases. I wish the Ukrainian gov’t would give them orders to stand down. They don’t have a chance.
 
Does anyone here actually remember the footage of the so-called ''freedom protestors" in Kiev last week? They smashed windows, pulled down statues, rode on motorcycles and cracked the heads of Jews who they were driving by with baseball bats.

Would you take seriously a movement who’s idea of protesting here in the USA was to go into Washington DC and burn down the Library of Congress, destroy the Jefferson memorial and begin looting and ransacking the Smithsonian museum?
 
Sorry this is so big. The caption says, “So this is the Ukrainian base. Russians everywhere outside.” Perevalne outside Simferopol. Just wondering, if anybody knows, are these women Russians or Ukrainians? I think a whole story could be written from this photo, but I haven’t seen it.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Ukraine Jews Call on Russia To End ‘Invasion’
Join Call by Religious Groups for End of Crisis


*Religious communities in Ukraine, including the Jewish community, called on Russia to “stop its aggression against Ukraine” and pull out its troops.

The religious communities also appealed to the international community, including the United States, Great Britain, the European Union, the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, to “stop foreign invasion into Ukraine and brutal interference into our internal affairs.”

Rabbi Jacob Dov Bleich, president of the Jewish Federation of Ukraine and a chief rabbi in the country, was among the signatories of the letter circulated by the Institute for Religious Freedom. Other signatories include the heads of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate; the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church; the Evangelical Baptist Union of Ukraine; the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Ukraine; and the Ukrainian Lutheran Church.

“Dear Brothers and Sisters in Russia! The Ukrainian people have only friendly, fraternal feelings toward the Russian people. Do not believe the propaganda that enflames hostility between us. We want and we will continue to build friendly and fraternal relations with Russia but only as a sovereign and independent state,” the letter states.

In a statement released Friday, Rabbi Michael Kapustin of the Ner Tamid Reform synagogue in Simferopol, in the Crimean Peninsula, said he would go to his synagogue to light candles even though services were canceled for security reasons.

“The city is occupied by Russians. Apparently Russians intend to take over the Crimea and make it a part of Russia,” Kapustin said. ”If this were the case I would leave the country. In this case, I will leave this country since I want to live in democratic Ukraine.”*

forward.com/articles/193695/ukraine-jews-call-on-russia-to-end-invasion/
 
The only problem is that Putin’s signature is not worth much. In previous gas deals signed with previous Ukrainian administrations agreeing on a gas price let’s say for 3 years, Putin would solely change the contract a third of the way through and up the price of gas, in effect breaking the contract but Putin kept the contract. Nothing could be done, and the increased price stood, until it was increased again.

The same thing with the 15 billion dollar loan he offered. Analysts who looked at it pointed at the real danger of Putin just upping the interest rate continually higher to milk Ukraine for all its worth when he claimed the loan. Putin isn’t willing to spend money, but lend money, and he has a history of singularly changing the conditions and what can one do? Doesn’t seem like he would listen to arbitration if a conflict developed between the Ukrainian and Russian sides and he would resort to blackmail if needed. Look at the blackmail Putin resorted to to force Armenia to join his Eurasian Union, when Armenia desperately was aiming for the EU. Apparently, Putin read the leaders of Armenia all the harmful consequences they would suffer if they even tried to join the EU. So there Armenia is in Putin’s Eurasian Union. Putin apparently was quite thorough in arguing with Yanukovych about all the bones he would break if Yanukovych signed with Europe.

And any deal would come at a cost: Putin would swallow up Ukraine’s internal assets, its pipelines, its factories, its sovereignty basically, and ship profits back to Moscow, back to himself and his oligarch friends, not to ordinary Ukrainians. Like the Guardian says, Putin runs a virtual mafia state.

I don’t think Ukrainians really would see a future for their kids in such a state, but would emigrate. Any agreements with Putin would also come at a political cost which would eventually turn Ukraine into a colony for Moscow, in my opinion. After what’s happened this past week with Putin, I can’t see this being agreed to at all by the majority of Ukrainians.

Just my two cents.
Tymoshenko was the one who was deputy prime minister responsible for fuel. She started the crisis by proposing an increase in gas prices in Ukraine and said that Ukraine should pay Gazprom close to the price paid by the western Europeans. She was going to pay for this through a subsidiary owned by organised crime figures. After the crisis, Gazprom agreed to supply gas to Ukraine at about one-half of the current west European gas prices. Now why should Russia continue to supply gas at artificially deflated lower prices to Ukraine, when you have a situation where Ukrainians in parliament are threatening Russia with nuclear weapons?
 
Well, apparently Putin is willing to have Russia go down with him economically for his imperial dream:

Russian central bank tightens policy after rouble plummets on Ukraine

*Reuters) - Russia’s central bank hiked its key lending rate by 1.5 percentage points on Monday after the rouble hit an all-time low on President Vladimir Putin’s declaration at the weekend of his right to invade Ukraine.

The central bank did not mention Ukraine in its statement, but said the decision to raise rates was aimed at preventing “risks to inflation and financial stability associated with the recently increased level of volatility in the financial markets”.

On Saturday, Putin requested and won parliamentary approval to send troops into Ukraine to protect Russians and the Black Sea Fleet in the southern region of Crimea if the situation worsened. His spokesman said he had yet to take the decision.

In response, the United States threatened to impose sanctions, including severing trade and freezing assets, and the seven other countries belonging to the Group of Eight leading industrial nations stopped preparations for a summit due to take place in Russia’s Black Sea resort of Sochi in June.

“There’s a sell-off of everything right now,” said Artem Argetkin, trader at BCS in Moscow. “Brokers, for sure, are trying close their positions at any price.”

Shares in some Russia’s blue chips, such as Gazprom (GAZP.MM) were down more than 10 percent. Shares in state banks Sberbank (SBER.MM) and VTB (VTBR.MM) also slid.

The key question for investors is whether any country will move beyond verbal threats to punish Russia and impose sanctions.*

reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-russia-markets-idUSBREA220A520140303
 
Sorry this is so big. The caption says, “So this is the Ukrainian base. Russians everywhere outside.” Perevalne outside Simferopol. Just wondering, if anybody knows, are these women Russians or Ukrainians? I think a whole story could be written from this photo, but I haven’t seen it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhuFbBMIEAALIGL.jpg
Yes, they are Ukrainian women protecting the held-hostage Ukrainian soldiers inside behind the Ukrainian trident gate. I don’t even know if these Ukrainian soldiers can phone their families. I believe the Ukrainian ladies were singing Ukrainian religious hymns. Sad indeed, but apparently these people are now Putin’s enemies. They were standing there while Putin’s masked military units outnumbering them stood in front of the Ukrainian base with weapons. Really sad, and all Putin’s work.

Off to bed, sorry. Goodnight all.
 
tinyurl.com/mubw95f

“While Western headline-writers are telling us Russian troops are moving into Ukraine, in reality they are moving into Crimea – which is not the same thing. While Crimea is officially an autonomous region formally within Ukraine, it has its own Parliament and, up until 1995, its own President. The majority of Crimeans are Russian-speakers, and they have voted repeatedly for close relations with Russia. Crimea’s post-Soviet history is a rocky one. Unilaterally handed over to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 – in a move of dubious legality – Crimea was caught between Russia and Ukraine as the old USSR collapsed. In 1991, the Movement for a Republic of Crimea gathered 180,000 signatures on a petition calling for a popular referendum on Crimean independence, an informal “opinion poll” was held in which the modified demand for close relations with Russia passed overwhelmingly, and the elected Parliament adopted a resolution declaring Crimean sovereignty.”

“Kiev responded to this with the threat of force, and at that point the bargaining began. The Crimeans, for their part, used the separatist threat to gain some leverage in the negotiations with Kiev: what they wanted – and got – was control over local resources, which were about to be “privatized” by the crooks in Kiev and looted by various Western Ukrainian oligarchs. The local oligarchs took exception to this, and in the end they won out: Kiev basically caved and the resulting compromise kept Crimea within Ukraine, albeit with full economic and political autonomy. The compromise, however, didn’t last long: in 1993, as the Ukrainian economy collapsed, the Ukrainian currency approached worthlessness, and the social fabric of what was essentially an administrative unit of the old Soviet Union rather than an actual nation came apart at the seams, a national movement for Crimean independence gained traction. The presidential and parliamentary elections of 1994 gave Yuri Meshkov, a Russian nationalist, a big majority and a subsequent referendum on closer ties with Russian won nearly 80 percent of the vote. Kiev went ballistic, and Meshkov appealed to the Russians for protection, but President Yeltsin was more interested in appeasing the West and the Crimeans were ultimately left to fend for themselves. The Crimean presidency was abolished by unilateral decree of the Ukrainian Rada, and troops from Western Ukraine were sent in.”

“That same year, Yeltsin signed a tripartite agreement with Ukraine and the US, in which the Ukrainians agreed to give up their nuclear weapons – left over from the old Soviet days – with the secret protocols (never made public to this day) widely believed to guarantee Western support for Ukraine in the event of a threat to its arbitrarily-defined borders. Yet the Crimean desire to be free of the Ukrainian yoke did not abate: in 2008, the Crimean Parliament voted to recognize Abhkazia and Ossetia, two former Soviet autonomous regions that had been arbitrarily handed over to Georgia and subsequently voted to rejoin Russia. That same year, one million Crimeans signed a petition demanding the Russian fleet be allowed to retain its presence in Sevastopol. In spite of threats of force, and a series of heavy-handed administrative measures, Crimean separatism has continuously bubbled just beneath the surface, and polls show the majority of Russian-speakers and Ukrainian-speakers favor separation. This desire to get away has no doubt been amplified a thousand-fold as a coalition of corrupt oligarchs and outright fascists with US support overthrew Viktor Yanukovich, the elected President, and the country teeters on the edge of bankruptcy and chaos.”

“With officials of the ultra-rightist Svoboda party – formerly the “Social National” party – in top positions in the new government in Kiev, and with the outright neo-Nazis of “Right Sector” being handed control of police and law enforcement bodies, Crimeans are refusing to recognize Kiev’s authority. The Crimean Parliament has – once again – declared independence and appealed to Russia for security guarantees, while the head of the Ukrainian navy, which is stationed in Sevastopol, has defected to the Crimean side. The real story of what is happening in Ukraine is somewhat more complicated than the little morality play now being staged by the “mainstream” Western media. But then again there’s nothing new in that: the role of the American press as loyal servitor of the State has been repeatedly confirmed in recent years, from the Iraq fiasco to the demonization of Edward Snowden.”
 
By the way, to those complaining about the Russians disarming the Ukrainian troops, remember they are doing this for good reason: by taking their weapons instead of the Ukrainian soldiers giving them up themselves, the Russians have given the Ukraine troops a safety net for when the Russians return home, since Kiev then cannot court martial the troops for “abandonment” since the soldiers can then rationalize that they were “forcefully disarmed”
 
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