Ukraine

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JordanJD said:
By the way, to those complaining about the Russians disarming the Ukrainian troops, remember they are doing this for good reason: by taking their weapons instead of the Ukrainian soldiers giving them up themselves, the Russians have given the Ukraine troops a safety net for when the Russians return home, since Kiev then cannot court martial the troops for “abandonment” since the soldiers can then rationalize that they were “forcefully disarmed”
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Unless they have a completely different military justice system than the US or most other countries they can be court martialed for letting the Russians take the weapons. Want to take a guess at the charges these soldiers could face if war breaks out between Ukraine and their “we were just protecting your soldiers by disarming them” neighbors?

I won’t even go into the logic you had to use in order to justify what Russia is doing.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Unless they have a completely different military justice system than the US or most other countries they can be court martialed for letting the Russians take the weapons.
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That is why they are being “forcefully disarmed”, that is different then “letting them have weapons”
oldcatholicguy said:
Want to take a guess at the charges these soldiers could face if war breaks out between Ukraine and their “we were just protecting your soldiers by disarming them” neighbors?
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IF war did break out either the Ukrainian soldiers would either defect or be detained. One means that they don’t face trial anyways, the other means they can claim they were held prisoner
oldcatholicguy said:
I won’t even go into the logic you had to use in order to justify what Russia is doing.
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And I cannot understand why you would totally ignore all the facts I posted in my previous post # 11761789
 
*Last month’s revolution in Ukraine saw thousands of students, workers and families take to the streets to demand political reform.

But amongst the crowds of ordinary citizens were a small number of far-right groups, who were often responsible for the most organised and violent protests.*

youtube.com/watch?v=tOVI7daEOBo

Sasha Beliy - a Ukrainian gangster and a lieutenant of Dimitri Yarosh - a Maidan protest leader. Here he is attending a session of Rovno regional parliament. Note AK and knives he is using to back his ‘advice’ to vote for a free housing for ‘Maidan heroes’ and to criminalize Communist party and Party of Regions:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xpVXi3kPbAs

This same person again visiting a district attorney. Note how he is using necktie to suffocate attorney and beats his deputy in a face:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zXfg1NFMrU
 
**Sky News - Russia And China ‘In Agreement’ Over Ukraine
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Russia has said China is largely “in agreement” over the situation in Ukraine after the other G8 nations condemned its intrusion into the country.**
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Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov discussed Ukraine by telephone with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, on Monday, and claimed they had “broadly coinciding points of view” on the situation there, according to a ministry statement.
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Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, he said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine “until the normalisation of the political situation”.
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He added: “We call for a responsible approach, to put aside geopolitical calculations, and above all to put the interests of the Ukrainian people first.”
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**As a tense stand-off continues between Russian and Ukrainian forces on the borders of Crimea, the other seven nations of the G8 urged Moscow to hold talks with Kiev.
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“We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation’s clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine,” they said in a statement**.
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Military personnel, believed to be Russian servicemen, stand guard outside territory of Ukrainian military unit in village of Perevalnoye outside Simferopol
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“We have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G8 Summit in Sochi in June.”
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British Foreign Secretary William Hague, who is in Kiev for talks on the crisis, said Russia has taken operational control of Crimea and described its intervention in Ukraine as the biggest crisis in Europe in the 21st century.
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At a news conference with Ukraine Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, he said: "If this situation cannot resolve itself, if Russia cannot be persuaded to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, there will have to be other consequences and other costs.
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“Russia should be in no doubt about this, this is something we take very seriously, that we have to take very seriously, because if this becomes the normal way of behaving in the world, of intruding or violating the sovereignty of neighbours, well then clearly that would be an even bigger crisis in international affairs.”
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news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine
 
JordanJD said:
That is why they are being “forcefully disarmed”, that is different then “letting them have weapons”
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-First it’s clear you have little knowledge on military law. The only time a soldier is allowed to surrender his weapon is when he is ordered to a) surrender to the enemy or b) hand it over to someone authorized to take it. Last I checked the Russian military wasn’t in the Ukrainian military’s chain of command and Russia has not yet declared war on the Ukrainian people, or as some will most likely rationalize it “a pro-active defensive move to protect Ukrainians from themselves.”
-Second, your above pretty much has you admitting that Russia has committed an immoral act of war. “Forcefully disarming” another country’s military on that country’s soil without this action having an international mandate or being covered in a treaty between the two countries is an act of war. It’s immoral due to the fact that Russia is the aggressor. Congratulations, you’ve effectively destroyed your prior arguments supporting Russia by trying to rationalize it illegally seizing the Ukrainian military’s weapons and equipment.
 
From the Telegraph:
10.45 Vladimir Putin has been compared to Adolf Hitler by a former Czech foreign minister who says he is repeating history by acting in Crimea much like the Nazi leader did in central and eastern Europe in the late 1930s.
“What’s happening in Ukraine is history repeating itself,” Karel Schwarzenberg said in an interview with Austrian daily Osterreich.
“Putin is acting along the same principle as Adolf Hitler” did during his invasions of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1938 and 1939, he said.
“Since he wanted to invade Crimea, he needed a pretext and said that his compatriots were oppressed,” the 76-year-old Schwarzenberg said, adding that Russians in Crimea, where they are a majority, were not facing any discrimination"
“When Hitler wanted to annex Austria, he said that Germans there were oppressed,” he said.
Europe should “clearly tell him that this is a violation of law that will not pass,” said Schwarzenberg, who served as Czech foreign minister from 2007-2009 and 2010-2013.
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telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10672417/Ukraine-live.html
 
As Russian military forces intervened in the Ukraine’s Crimean region, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church said that “we must stand up for our country” and "be ready, if …

More…
 
Great we have a paranoid ego maniac loose and now confirmed by Merkel. I see the special forces commandeered a ferry to move the mechanized units in also. Putin got an early start today.

I feel terrible for the Ukraine troops on the base’s.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
-First it’s clear you have little knowledge on military law. The only time a soldier is allowed to surrender his weapon is when he is ordered to a) surrender to the enemy or b) hand it over to someone authorized to take it. Last I checked the Russian military wasn’t in the Ukrainian military’s chain of command and Russia has not yet declared war on the Ukrainian people, or as some will most likely rationalize it “a pro-active defensive move to protect Ukrainians from themselves.”
-Second, your above pretty much has you admitting that Russia has committed an immoral act of war. “Forcefully disarming” another country’s military on that country’s soil without this action having an international mandate or being covered in a treaty between the two countries is an act of war. It’s immoral due to the fact that Russia is the aggressor. Congratulations, you’ve effectively destroyed your prior arguments supporting Russia by trying to rationalize it illegally seizing the Ukrainian military’s weapons and equipment.
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If Russia is the aggressor then why did the president of the region INVITE Russia in for protection and why has their been almost no resistance to Russia? Not much of an “invasion” if the people are greeting you in happiness…
 
JordanJD said:
If Russia is the aggressor then why did the president of the region INVITE Russia in for protection and why has their been almost no resistance to Russia? Not much of an “invasion” if the people are greeting you in happiness…
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Ah, so Nazi Germany really didn’t invade Russia because they met little resistance among some of the Russian populace (like the Cossacks that no longer live in the Crimea due to being either murdered wholesale or forcibly relocated by the Soviets after WW2 for example)?

As for Russia having so much support by the current populace in the Crimea, shouldn’t be a surprise given why there are so many ethnic Russians in the Crimea and so few non-ethnic Russians there.
 
JordanJD said:
Um, and yet this would suggest otherwise:

news.yahoo.com/germany-putin-accepts-merkel-contact-group-idea-202813058.html

BERLIN (AP) — The German government said Russian President Vladimir Putin on Sunday accepted a proposal by Chancellor Angela Merkel to set up a “contact group” aimed at facilitating dialogue in the Ukraine crisis.
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themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-agrees-to-establish-contact-group-on-crimea-germany-says/495484.html

President Vladimir Putin has agreed to form a fact-finding mission and a contact group under the auspices of the OSCE to facilitate dialogue on the Crimea.

The proposals were made by German Chancellor Angela Merkel during a telephone conversation with President Putin that took place Sunday, said Georg Streiter, a German government spokesman, the AP reported Sunday.

Fifty-seven countries, including Russia, Ukraine and the U.S., are members of the OSCE, or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
 
GaryTaylor said:
I feel terrible for the Ukraine troops on the base’s.
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Me, too.
This is the best article I’ve seen on their situation:
theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-crisis-russia-crimea-standoff
The Guardian reports from the Crimea, where Ukrainian troops are caught in a standoff with Russians demanding they disarm
Asked what would happen if, next time, the Russians came with orders rather than requests, the men claimed to have no doubt. “I am Russian myself, I was born there,” he said. “But we are professional soldiers and we have given an oath of duty. We will not give up this place without a fight.”
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oldcatholicguy said:
Ah, so Nazi Germany really didn’t invade Russia because they met little resistance among some of the Russian populace (like the Cossacks that no longer live in the Crimea due to being either murdered wholesale or forcibly relocated by the Soviets after WW2 for example)?
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GOTTA BUST OUT THE HITLER ANALOGY!!!
oldcatholicguy said:
As for Russia having so much support by the current populace in the Crimea, shouldn’t be a surprise given why there are so many ethnic Russians in the Crimea and so few non-ethnic Russians there.
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Exactly, and if you would have read my earlier post on the history of Crimea, you would have seen why Crimea has accepted Russian forces there and how Kiev has always looked down on that region
 
From all the reports I am reading on actual numbers, the total amount of forces in addition to what is already in the Crimea is only a couple thousand. This is certainly no offensive operation. They also are reporting the forces are in defensive positions, so it is obvious that

A. They want to maintain a minimal defense force in the Crimea
B. They have no plans to go any further in Ukrainian territory
C. They have made no actions to replace the Crimea government

It should be obvious that Russia has no plans to annex anything or to invade any of Ukraine proper, since both these actions would have happened already. Putin is doing these actions precisely because he is angry at several western NGO’s who engaged in the false “color coded revolutions” in hopes of surrounding Russia with NATO nations, Russia is now doing this booga-bogga stunt as a way of saying “back off”. I hope right now Obama is furious at the Neocon outfits here in the US that financially assisted these NGO’s. More info here:

consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/
 
JordanJD said:
GOTTA BUST OUT THE HITLER ANALOGY!!!

Exactly, and if you would have read my earlier post on the history of Crimea, you would have seen why Crimea has accepted Russian forces there and how Kiev has always looked down on that region
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You can’t actually invoke Godwin’s Law when the reference to the Nazis and/or Hitler is valid. Godwin’s Law only works when the reference is invalid to the discussion. You claimed it wasn’t an invasion because the ethnic Russians in the Crimea were happy Russia sent in troops. I countered with another prior invasion of the Crimea in which the populace was happy another country sent in troops.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
You can’t actually invoke Godwin’s Law when the reference to the Nazis and/or Hitler is valid. Godwin’s Law only works when the reference is invalid to the discussion. You claimed it wasn’t an invasion because the ethnic Russians in the Crimea were happy Russia sent in troops. I countered with another prior invasion of the Crimea in which the populace was happy another country sent in troops.
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When Hitler invaded the other countries, whether the people liked him or not, he was never invited or asked to come by the governments.

But if you read the news a couple of days ago, the parliament and president of the region of Crimea sent a request to Russia to assist their region.
 
JordanJD said:
When Hitler invaded the other countries, whether the people liked him or not, he was never invited or asked to come by the governments.

But if you read the news a couple of days ago, the parliament and president of the region of Crimea sent a request to Russia to assist their region.
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Hitler was begged by the Sudeten Germans and the Austrian Nazis to takeover both their countries. The Sudeten Germans had already declared their own independence and Nazi dominated assembly.

The same thing occurred with the Danzig Germans which by the way was a free city under the League of Nations so only quasi-under Polish control. It had its own Nazi controlled government. Hitler invaded Poland using these Germans and the ones living in Poland itself, as a pretext.

So the German minorities acted exactly like the Russian minorities have in the Ukraine, in Crimea.

And the Ukranians have acted exactly like the Czechs and Poles did: Get out of our country!

The Czechs were willing to fight alone without Western help but were eventually tied into a corner by the Munich agreement.
 
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