Ukraine

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GaryTaylor said:
The man is conflicted.

“Later, at a reception in Kiev, Putin and Patriarch Kirill took part in a prayer service with Ukrainian leader Viktor Yanukovych. He urged the leaders of Ukraine to turn towards a greater unity with Russia, and away from its overtures to the European Union, citing a natural cultural and spiritual relationship that is not present with the heavily secularist EU.”

They disagree with the US moral equivalence. Its really that simple. And as you see when you are talking orthodoxy, the only gauge for morality is Jesus Christ “aka” the Church.

And for sure the Olympics were an insult from Obama towards Putin. It certainly didn’t help. You don’t get to insult your host. Where in the world is that moral ideal taught?

I mean is it really any wonder???
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Er…no. LOL. 😛
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
AFAIK, all that Yanukovych’s ouster accomplished was to have the Constitution go back to 2004 specifications-----------so basically, they went “by the book,” so to speak.
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From what I have read, the constitution did not yet return to the one of 2004 when he was ousted meaning that it was still illegal, as it was not done to in the manner prescribed in the most recent constitution. A subtle difference, but it makes a world of difference.
 
GaryTaylor said:
And for sure the Olympics were an insult from Obama towards Putin. It certainly didn’t help.
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Why did Obama go out of his way to insult Putin? Perhaps it had something to do with Snowden. But Russia did not ask for Snowden to come to Moscow.
 
KyivAndrew said:
The Russians are going back to that one agreement but even their rep. didn’t sign it. Yanukovych is a crook who shot at his own people. He lost his legitimacy after he committed several impeachable offenses which I went through much earlier in this thread. He arrested all his political opposition, coerced the courts, and falsified the parliamentary elections of 2012.

The Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine’s Parliament, ousted him. He stole billions from the Ukrainian people. The American people and Congress would not tolerate such a leader, neither should have Ukrainians.
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True------but I sincerely hope that the new government does everything it can to oust the alleged/apparent “majority” of right-wing Svoboda members who want to fight until “all the Russians and Jews” are gone from its ranks.

And cut back on its supposedly “anti-Russian” legislation. 👍

The new government should not insist, for example, that the Ethnic Russians accept an Ukrainian-only language. :yup::yup:

You may disagree, but that’s fine by me. I don’t live there-----but it seems to me that this should be time for some compromise and diplomacy on both sides. :sad_yes:

AFTER the Putin “problem” is solved, of course.
 
KyivAndrew said:
He couldn’t have been impeached properly because he had paid millions to transfer representatives to his party, against the Constitution.
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Even if he couldn’t have been impeached properly, it would be irrelevant if the opposition kept rubbing the February 21st agreement in his face instead of undermining it. This agreement would have an election to potentially and legally oust him by the end of the year. Now the actions of the opposition have put their legitimacy into question.
KyivAndrew said:
The American people and Congress would not tolerate such a leader, neither should have Ukrainians.
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And yet we tolerate a leader who champions the slaughter of innocents that is abortion. What does that say about us?
 
Barricade said:
From what I have read, the constitution did not yet return to the one of 2004 when he was ousted meaning that it was still illegal, as it was not done to in the manner prescribed in the most recent constitution. A subtle difference, but it makes a world of difference.
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Yes, it does.

Yanukovych is indeed a puppet of Russia and a criminal, but one does not necessarily oust a criminal with illegal, “undemocratic” (arguably, I know) methods.

Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
Barricade said:
Even if he couldn’t have been impeached properly, it would be irrelevant if the opposition kept rubbing the February 21st agreement in his face instead of undermining it. This agreement would have an election to potentially and legally oust him by the end of the year. Now the actions of the opposition have put their legitimacy into question.

And yet we tolerate a leader who champions the slaughter of innocents that is abortion. What does that say about us?
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👍👍👍
 
Tomdstone said:
Why did Obama go out of his way to insult Putin?
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Gay rights agenda which I have to believe was intended to create conflict in an already conflicted area with this debate. Its an agenda and one which as you see from above plays right into the borders of Russia, or as stated “his people”. As Putin put it.
 
KyivAndrew said:
A video has went viral in Ukraine which I will link to at the end of this post. Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea, locked up basically like animals in cages for days by armed Russian forces in the thousands who have surrounded their bases illegally and who wear no insignia, finally attempted to do their job. In today’s paranoid press conference by Putin, Putin claimed there are no Russian armed men in Crimea doing this but self-defense units who could simply buy army wear by themselves. (This of course is not true). These Russian forces have bazookas, machine guns, matching uniforms, masks. They may be Russian paratroopers, though Putin knows who they are for sure For over a week now Putin has been lying about threats to ethnic Russians in Ukraine, even staging fake scenes ostensibly showing such violence.
This article is informative:
Putin’s Crimea Propaganda Machine
To justify its invasion of Crimea, the Kremlin and state-run media went into full fabrication mode this weekend. Here are the lies that Russia is telling its viewers back home.
thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/03/putin-s-crimea-propaganda-machine.html

People are pointing out the obvious in saying that old KGB colonel Putin is now listening to FSB yes-men to fortify him in his delusions that Russians are under attack in Ukraine, which has been and would be his pretext for launching an invasion. He is even shipping in Russian citizens into Ukraine to tear down Ukrainian flags and raise Russian ones. This story, one among many along these lines, from CNN by a photographer who herself half-Russian:

I just talked to my friends in Crimea.
Yuri in Simferopol told me that it’s a handful of pro-Russian extremists in the streets trying to make a scene for Russian video cameras – they are showing that these are the Russians who request protection!
Meanwhile, the rest of the city is terrified by the presence of Russian military forces and are evacuating their families to central or western Ukraine.
I got a similar report from Luda in Kharkov. She said that a large group of Russians were brought across the border by buses, and they were the ones inspiring and instigating unrest that resulted in putting a Russian flag on a municipal building.
The amount of propaganda Russia has poured onto Ukraine is hard to comprehend. Putting troops on Ukrainian land is going to bring the very opposite result from what Putin expected: I believe it’s uniting Ukraine.
edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/ukraine-divided-opinion-irpt/index.html

Here is the video from the BBC showing the video I mentioned at the beginning. Brave young Ukrainian soldiers march out of their base to fulfill their job. They are singing the Ukrainian national anthem carrying a blue and yellow Ukrainian national flag, along with a Soviet flag with hammer and sickle which they hope will deter the Russians. The Russian military without insignia start firing in the air, and then one real rough-looking Russian says he’ll shoot at their legs next. The first shots fired in Crimea have been by Russian forces, not Ukrainian who marched unarmed. To the Russian claim that this is a provocation, the Ukrainians reply we’re unarmed!

Putin is itching for a fight. This really could have turned fatal quite easily. The Ukrainian soldiers then played football, until some real mean-looking Russians showed up.

These boys’ moms and wives and girlfriends are worried about them. They are there legally. The Russian forces are there illegally and they have now used lethal weapons. The threat to Ukraine’s peace comes from Putin, not Ukrainians. Some of these Russian military were asked point blank who was giving them their orders “Sergei Aksyonov?” (the man who only got 4% of the vote in the last Crimean election but whom the Russians have made PM in Crimea and who Putin relies on as being the man who asked Russia for help). “Whose Aksyonov?”, the Russian military replied.

Here is the video of the event the BBC took (I’ll find more if need be). It’s gone viral in Ukraine and really united people.
Russian troops fire into air as Ukrainians march on Crimean airbase
bbc.com/news/world-europe-26443227
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Thanks for the links, the BBC video was quite enlightening in a sad sort of way, I just pray God that nobody makes a false move, i.e., I don’t want to see this escalate further. And it was good to have the perspective of someone from the Crimea who is Russian-speaking.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
The new government should not insist, for example, that the Ethnic Russians accept an Ukrainian-only language. :yup::yup:
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Yes, and under the new government there has been no ethnic violence, despite Putin’s attempts to inflame the situation. When Kerry showed up to lay flowers at the Maidan, the Heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches were with him as well as the Chief Rabbi. I think the latter actually warned the Russians about invading and trying to tarnish the new interim government with staged religious violence to be blamed on Ukrainian nationalists. The poster Vouthon gave the link. The Russian secret police is not above using provocations. There has been no looting in Kyiv or Ukraine, but only violence now in places like Donetsk and Kharkiv where Putin is shipping in “volunteers” who basically beat people up, tear down Ukrainian flags on buildings and raise Russian ones. Something like this could be used as a pretext to an invasion to protect Eastern Ukrainians who wish “to join” Russia, which is not the case, even in Eastern Ukraine. They might join an economic union, but they accept and believe Ukraine as their country predominantly, but the Russians who are bused in start chanting “Putin, Putin” and Russian-speaking Ukrainians are puzzled by this.

The political situation needs to find stability and and this will lead to de-radicalization of hotheads. Putin is not helping but exacerbating the situation.

On the language law, Russian of course could be used and it was and has been in schools. The language law that Yanukovych forced through the Rada was terribly drafted, would have cost tons of money, but it should stay on the books and Russian should be allowed to flourish. Indeed, there is no danger of Russian vanishing from Ukraine, and one only need look at the massive amount of Russian books, periodicals, and shows in Ukraine, which are significantly Russian, really. I know this. I speak Ukrainian (my mother tongue, first language) and can read, understand Russian as well. Indeed, Russian is spoken by many ethnic Ukrainians and as I said before on the Maidan against Yanukovych one could find equally Ukrainian and Russian speakers.
 
KyivAndrew said:
Yes, and under the new government there has been no ethnic violence, despite Putin’s attempts to inflame the situation. When Kerry showed up to lay flowers at the Maidan, the Heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches were with him as well as the Chief Rabbi. I think the latter actually warned the Russians about invading and trying to tarnish the new interim government with staged religious violence to be blamed on Ukrainian nationalists. The poster Vouthon gave the link. The Russian secret police is not above using provocations. There has been no looting in Kyiv or Ukraine, but only violence now in places like Donetsk and Kharkiv where Putin is shipping in “volunteers” who basically beat people up, tear down Ukrainian flags on buildings and raise Russian ones. Something like this could be used as a pretext to an invasion to protect Eastern Ukrainians who wish “to join” Russia, which is not the case, even in Eastern Ukraine. They might join an economic union, but they accept and believe Ukraine as their country predominantly, but the Russians who are bused in start chanting “Putin, Putin” and Russian-speaking Ukrainians are puzzled by this.

On the language law, Russian of course could be used and it was and has been in schools. The language law that Yanukovych forced through the Rada was terribly drafted, would have cost tons of money, but it should stay on the books and Russian should be allowed to flourish. Indeed, there is no danger of Russian vanishing from Ukraine, and one only need look at the massive amount of Russian books, periodicals, and shows in Ukraine, which are significantly Russian, really. I speak Ukrainian and can read Russian as well. I know this. Indeed, Russian is spoken by many ethnic Ukrainians and as I said before on the Maidan against Yanukovych one could find equally Ukrainian and Russian speakers.
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Good to hear. 👍👍
 
Barricade said:
Even if he couldn’t have been impeached properly, it would be irrelevant if the opposition kept rubbing the February 21st agreement in his face instead of undermining it. This agreement would have an election to potentially and legally oust him by the end of the year. Now the actions of the opposition have put their legitimacy into question.
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Do you think that Yanukovych would have abided by this agreement when he didn’t even abide by the constitution or democratic laws of the Ukraine? The momentum was such that the Opposition had the opportunity to oust him, and they did so as quickly as possible, which is understandable considering who they were dealing with, i.e., I think the longer they would have waited the less chance they would have had of ousting him. Moreover, I don’t believe that this could have played out differently and/or with different outcomes, i.e., Yanukovych is Russia’s puppet and if Russia wants him to stay then he will stay, therefore, whether it be now or later, I think Russian intervention was unavoidable.
And yet we tolerate a leader who champions the slaughter of innocents that is abortion. What does that say about us?
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Is Yanukovych a pro-life champion?
 
josie_L said:
Do you think that Yanukovych would have abided by this agreement when he didn’t even abide by the constitution or democratic laws of the Ukraine? The momentum was such that the Opposition had the opportunity to oust him and did so as quickly as possible and this is understandable considering who they were dealing with, i.e., I think the longer they would have waited the less chance they would have had of ousting him. Moreover, I don’t believe that this could have played out differently and with different outcomes, i.e., Yanukovych is Russia’s puppet and if Russia wants him to stay then he will stay, therefore, whether it be now or later, I think Russian intervention was unavoidable.

Is Yanukovych a pro-life champion?
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ukrinform.ua/eng/news/russian_opponents_of_abortions_to_picket_yanukovych_administration_293352

True, he’s a Putin puppet and when he wavered he fell out of favor.
 
GaryTaylor said:
ukrinform.ua/eng/news/russian_opponents_of_abortions_to_picket_yanukovych_administration_293352

True, he’s a Putin puppet and when he wavered he fell out of favor.
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Well, he’s now an exiled Putin-puppet that better be nice to his master or he may find himself either disappearing off the face of the earth or being left out to dry and sent back to Ukraine in humiliation and almost-certain conviction in an international court. IF he makes it to court, to be honest—and not a little bit cynical. 👍👍
 
GaryTaylor said:
Putin said what about Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, he said its a double standard.

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/04/putin-defends-his-course-on-ukraine-seeks-to-turn-tables-against-west/

“We have to remind them about the U.S. action in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, where they acted without any sanction of the United Nations Security Council, or wilfully interpreted its resolution as in the case of Libya,” he said. “Our partners, particularly in the United States, always clearly formulate their geopolitical and state interests and aggressively pursue them. They try to pull the rest of the world under them and start hitting those who put up resistance, eventually finishing them off, as a rule.”
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Not to mention stirring the pot in Syria which has resulted in 100,000 deaths at least and the decimation of the Christian population. And to no clear benefit to the American people, but it will stoke more (justified) anti-American feeling.
EmperorNapoleon said:
Thats a tired meme.
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But it’s true.
KyivAndrew said:
A video has went viral in Ukraine which I will link to at the end of this post.
[cut]
Putin is itching for a fight. This really could have turned fatal quite easily. The Ukrainian soldiers then played football, until some real mean-looking Russians showed up.
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So the 7 thugs are not wearing uniforms so that if things go south, Putin can tell the world, nope, nope, don’t know those guys, those weren’t Russian soldiers, they were civilians who just wandered onto the air base. :rolleyes:
 
What’s this about, I wonder. Protect from whom?

Odessa forms Orthodox militia
Orthodox Christians, youth and Cossack organizations of Odessa and nearby residential areas are forming Orthodox militia to help parishes, RIA Novosti reports.
The militia groups will protect religious centers, places, priests and church-goers from aggression and extremism, RIA Novosti reports.
The Headquarters of the Orthodox Militia has been formed to coorinate volunteers. They will have special labels and maybe even uniforms.
The United Fatherland organization says that fugitive President Victor Yanukovych was still the leader of Ukraine.
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Will they protect Catholic centers, places, priests and church-goers? Or is this against Catholics and Muslims?
 
gilliam said:
BBC:
Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier denied that troops surrounding bases in Crimea were Russian, instead he said they were “pro-Russian self-defence forces”…
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Then they were probably pro-Russian self-defence forces. See news is always like that , it might not will be a war between Russian and Ukraine in the beginning, News is always — like when Bitcoin price drops, then many news all said it will collapse before 2013, but it still here. News is always like that, but we need check News. And this world have so many troubles, we pray our Redeemer come, then all will be well. No matter what situation now we Christians all over the world should always love and praise God and hold kindness and love and keep God Commandments and endure everything patiently till new earth and new Heavens comes.
Remember this, Endure!
 
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