Ukraine

[TaurusRex]

PS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings:

The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.\l "

rex

 

[GraceSofia]

Channel 4’s international editor, Lindsey Hilsum, has tweeted this observation from Crimea.

#Russian forces have left some #Ukrainian bases in #Crimea but destroyed equipment including aircraft in others.

— Lindsey Hilsum (@lindseyhilsum) March 6, 2014

Not very brotherly of them. It’s an act of war, isn’t it?

It has been that way for a while now, hasn’t it? When country A does it, it is absolutely right. But when country B does it, it is absolutely wrong. Where is the logic in international relations?

There might be some logic based on the weapons trade; no moral logic, though.

Those in the present coalition in Ukraine and the USA want to block the vote in Crimea. Why shouldn’t people of a given region have the right to self determination and independence. Wasn’t it a glorious occasion when the US declared its independence from Great Britain? Isn’t this event celebrated with fireworks and parties every year on July 4?

I don’t think it’s the same at all. An army from another country didn’t come in to “help.”

An article from two days ago that I forgot to post:

ncronline.org/news/global/crisis-ukraine-replay-what-led-world-war-ii-says-priest

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I met a Bulgarian Latin Rite sister (about 35 or 40 years old now) who said it was the same in Bulgaria. Her grandmother got her baptised secretly and taught her.

The problem with Kissinger (I can’t find the revealing quote from his book Diplomacy) is that he is quite often blind to issues of morality and justice in international politics.

That’s for sure. His role in the invasion of Cyprus was reprehensible.
“Kissinger approved of the preparations by Greek Cypriot fascists for the murder of President Makarios, and sanctioned the coup which tried to extend the rule of the Athens junta (a favoured client of his) to the island. When despite great waste of life this coup failed in its objective, which was also Kissinger’s, of enforced partition, Kissinger promiscuously switched sides to support an even bloodier intervention by Turkey. Thomas Boyatt … went to Kissinger in advance of the anti-Makarios putsch and warned him that it could lead to a civil war. ‘Spare me the civics lecture,’ replied Kissinger, who as you can readily see had an aphorism for all occasions.” ~ Christopher Hitchens

 

[GaryTaylor]

But anyway, I’m sorry, but I still can’t see how Putin can be condemned for intervening in a circumstance where protesters can be compared to terrorists throwing boulder sized rocks and even Molotov cocktails at policemen and even killing some of them;
And yes. protesters have been killed by police in the USA for much less.

A sovereign state has supreme independent authority over its geographic area.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sarah Palin ran for vice president of the USA. She also was governor of Alaska. It has been reported that her husband, Todd Palin for several years belonged to the Alaskan Independence Party (AIP) which is a political party in the U.S. state of Alaska that advocates an in-state referendum which includes the option of Alaska becoming an independent country. Why is it OK for Alaska to have a vote on whether or not to become independent, but if Crimea has it, the USA will impose sanctions on Russia. Why did not the USA impose sanctions on Todd Palin, the husband of Sarah Palin, when he belonged to the Alaskan Independence party?

He didn’t show up with the military to confiscate a state by overthrowing the powers established and “then” impose a referendum to proceed in 10-days while the free population remained hostage to a hostile force.

Dictation at gun point isn’t advocating.

 

[GaryTaylor]

PS: rex

Whats your point with Kent State?

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is under repeal which has been an issue since 73.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

On 16 January 2014, Senators John McCain and Tim Kaine unveiled legislation that would repeal the existing War Powers Resolution and replace it with a new law for greater presidential consultation to Congress before committing military forces to a war or armed conflict. Senator McCain justifies the effort by pointing out that Congress has not formally declared war since June 1942 and that the nature of war has changed since then. Senator Kaine said that modern threats require a re-examination of consultation between a president and the legislature. Since the War Powers Resolution was passed after involvement during Vietnam in 1973, the U.S. has been involved in several military actions of varying scales without any real effect from the resolution. Recent events like U.S. intervention during the 2011 Libyan Revolution and the attempted call for congressional approval for action in the Syrian Civil War in 2013 have ignited debate over presidential authority and the effectiveness of the War Powers Resolution. The proposed replacement law would require the president to consult with Congress before deployment into a “significant armed conflict” or engage in combat operations expected to last over seven days. It extends the time needed to consult Congress of the deployment to three days, but reduces the time required for a resolution to be passed by Congress for extending operations to 30 days. The proposed legislation does not affect humanitarian missions and covert operations. The proposal is based on the work of the bipartisan National War Powers Commission

 

[Nelka]

Some of the comments on here are going beyond anti-Russian xenophobia.

How many of you have prayed for the region?

Imagine one Our Father for every post, more than 1500 Our Father’s prayed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

foxnews.com/world/2014/03/07/ukrainian-government-looks-to-oligarchs-for-help-in-pro-russian-regions-gives/

The unexpected move drew instant ire from Russian President Vladimir Putin, who called one of the oligarchs, Ukraine’s third-richest man, Ihor Kolomoisky, a “swindler.”

“They name oligarchs, billionaires as governors of eastern regions,” Putin said during a news conference earlier this week. “Naturally, people don’t accept that.”

Under Ukrainian law, governors are appointed by the country’s president instead of being elected. After President Viktor Yanukovych fled for Russia last month in the wake of mass protests against his government and deadly clashes with police, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov fired Yanukovych’s appointees and replaced them with his own.

NOTE; They have the right to do “ALL” this and its “NONE” of Putins business.

cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-crisis-crimea-parliament-referendum-on-becoming-part-of-russia/

 

[TEPO]

Conspiracies happen all the time.

Jesus was crucified as the result of a conspiracy.

I recently watched a documentary on drug cartels in Mexico. There are at least a dozen. Some of the larger ones have 100, 000 co-conspirators and assets in the billions.

One drug-lord spend ten years in prison, using it as his headquarters. Most of the prison staff conspired with him to aid and abet his work running the show.

So, just calling an event or series of events ‘a conspiracy’ does not serve to falsify a claim concerning what might have been the cause of it.

I suspect we will all be surprised when truth makes its appearance.

Peter, take into consideration that first it was Ukrainian Neo-Nazis and then it became the United States fault. It just doesn’t add up. posters who have typically, in the past shunned conspiracy theories are now taking to them.

Just keep in mind that the Ukrainians have their own language and their own ethnic culture. Their former president, and those of Crimea are Russian apologists. That’s where the problem lies -between the Russians and the Ukrainians.

 

[SpeedingDaily]

These two items are probably the only real news out there that i trust.

youtube.com/watch?v=QnpXASPd1h4#t=234
truthdig.com/report/item/ukraine_between_a_rock_and_russia_20140306

 

[TEPO]

These two items are probably the only real news out there that i trust.

youtube.com/watch?v=QnpXASPd1h4#t=234
truthdig.com/report/item/ukraine_between_a_rock_and_russia_20140306

I want to take “the surgeon” on -one on one!

…as for solving problems, I’ve already given my opinion on that. It’s Confederation… A new way to ‘test’ East/West relations.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Odd at best is what the Night Wolves are. I suppose you can align yourself with the so called government democracy and act as strong arm thugs when your government acts in like accord.

And the absurd accusation of the Banditos and Hells Angels is so far off track its laughable.

In fact what you have is the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[TEPO]

Here is the true ‘cause’ of the current problem in Ukraine. It all boils down to this… Beelzebub.

youtube.com/watch?v=yl58QllW2QM

 

[JustaServant]

Jharek, you’re one of CAF’s best posters.
Please reconsider.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here is the true ‘cause’ of the current problem in Ukraine. It all boils down to this… Beelzebub.

youtube.com/watch?v=yl58QllW2QM

Surreal, they are like the Israelites when they refused to leave the bondage of Egypt. That is one heck of a state indoctrination and propaganda program they have, and implemented by the threat of violence. This was well thought out, and to be honest, it may be a blessing this occurred now. Putin was aiming much higher than this, and America wasn’t in the picture, and obviously Christ’s Church isn’t in the equation either.

What a slap in the face of reality.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jharek, you’re one of CAF’s best posters.
Please reconsider.

 

[Ridgerunner]

gilliam thanks for the link. Here’s the thing; I never thought I’d say this but Kissinger is out of his depth in speaking of Ukraine, as is Fareed Zakaria on CNN at times.

For instance, Kissinger just published this article, and already Russia and its disguised forces in Crimea have forbidden the presence of international election observers in Crimea. The Russian ‘border’ guard even released the safety on his gun as these observers arrived. Kissinger isn’t aware that for months now these people in Crimea and Russia have been bombarded with propaganda that the West is out to get them.

Ukrainian flags held by peaceful civilians are torn to shreds in Crimea. How can you conduct a referendum with thousands of masked Russian military on the ground. What of the by-now scared to death Ukrainians and Tatars on the peninsula, never mind that even among the Russian population there are those who do not wish to belong to Putin’s Russia.

Even the so-called Prime Minister of Crimea whom the Russians installed belongs to a small Russian party which only got 4% of Crimea’s votes and now this person speaks for all of Crimea?

The problem with Kissinger (I can’t find the revealing quote from his book Diplomacy) is that he is quite often blind to issues of morality and justice in international politics. It’s sometimes all-equivalent power politics in his mind. He was against Reagan labeling things good or evil in the 1980s, but Kissinger’s detente accomplished nothing, and his balance of powers international strategy may have been good for 19th century Europe but it had no place in the Cold War, nor can it have much to say when a world power like Russia sees foreign policy as a zero-sum game, in complete distinction to Obama. Kissinger’s theory of balance of power can’t deal with players like Putin.

Yes, I had to read his World Restored study back in University, but Crown Prince Metternich would be lost in today’s world.

Back to Ukraine, Kissinger’s lack of depth is illustrated in the following quote from the article you linked:

*The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country. Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus. The Russian religion spread from there. Ukraine has been part of Russia for centuries, and their histories were intertwined before then. Some of the most important battles for Russian freedom, starting with the Battle of Poltava in 1709 , were fought on Ukrainian soil.
*

First off if Kissinger knew Ukrainian history he would know that the Battle of Poltava was not a fight for “Russian freedom” (Tsar Peter could hardly be called freedom fighter for the people) but was actually a battle in which the Ukrainian Hetman Mazepa and his Ukrainian forces, allying themselves with the Swedes, fought for Ukraine’s freedom from the Russian Tsar and Russian autocracy on Ukrainian soil at Poltava. How could Kissinger get this wrong? After Mazepa’s defeat, the civilian population of Hetmanate Ukraine’s capital, Baturyn, was decimated.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baturyn
The Ukrainian civilians of Baturyn, thousands, were all murdered, including children (whose bones are still being excavated), by the troops of the Russian Imperial Army in 1708. Men, women, children. And Kissinger calls this a fight for “Russian freedom”?

That’s why when some scholars talk on this subject I can tell Ukrainian history (complex as it is) is not their area of expertise. The same holds true of Zakaria who on GPS keeps going on about Ukraine being under Russia for 300 years. First off this ignores the autonomy of Left-Bank Ukraine up until 1709, Poltava. It then ignores the history of Right-Bank Ukraine which only was swallowed partially by Tsarist Russia at the end of the 18th Century. It completely ignores Galicia which was not conquered by Moscow until after World War Two, and Bukovyna, and Zakarpattia.

Kissinger’s history also ignores the fact that Ukraine’s capital Kyiv and Russia’s Muscovy took completely different trajectories in the Middle Ages after Kublai Khan. They became two different entities with two different political cultures. For two hundred years, the biggest influence on Muscovy’s political evolution was the Mongol Golden Horde which lorded over it and whose practice of autocracy was absorbed by the Muscovite Princes after the Golden Horde was no more. For Kyiv, it was Lithuania which, because of its cultural backwardness to Kyiv in the Middle Ages, basically let Kyivan Ukraine keep its culture, religion. Many historians of Kyivan-Rus point to this difference in the historical trajectories Russian Moscow took (autocracy) compared to Ukrainian Kyiv and even Russian Novgorod which rejected Muscovite autocracy, preferring democratic gatherings called Viche/Veche and a division of powers as opposed to absolute rule.

The U.S. has a better “ethnic” argument to seize Canada than Russia has to seize Ukraine. (Relax Canadians…not suggesting it. )

 

[gilliam]

This may go down in history as the theft of Crimea.

Russian Duma to hold 1st reading of law to include Crimea into Russian Federation on 21st March - Interfax

More escalation today:

Russia’s state-controlled gas company Gazprom warns Ukraine it could cut off gas exports if it does not pay off its $1.89bn debt, reports say.

Ukraine’s 5 Kanal TV reports that members of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet have sunk a third ship at the entrance to Lake Donuzlav - which opens onto the Black Sea - reportedly to prevent Ukrainian ships currently in Donuzlav from reaching the Black Sea. The TV noted that two other ships were sunk in the same area yesterday as part of Russia’s blockade of the Ukrainian navy. (BBC Monitoring)

BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson, who is at the Chungar border, confirms the OSCE team have been prevented from entering Crimea for a second day in a row.

Evidence suggests that Russian security services are at the heart of the well-organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea:ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/fsputin-03052014.html

 

[TaurusRex]

A sovereign state has supreme independent authority over its geographic area.

This may be so, but I’m questioning whether or not sovereignty must be reestablished in a circumstance where a legitimate government is violently overthrown by revolutionaries without them having made a formal declaration of independence (or did they?).

Whats your point with Kent State?

In my last post I stated that as far as protesters having been killed by police in Ukraine due to their terroristic like violence, we have killed demonstrators in the USA for much less
So my PS: was just to demonstrate proof of my comment.

rex

 

[Ridgerunner]

Looks like Obama has consented to the Russian seizure of Crimea. He has endorsed the idea of a Crimean plebescite on the matter, only stipulating that “international observers” be present for it. So far Russia has refused to allow the observers, but Putin might well capitulate on that. After all, the election is only a few days away and Russia will probably control the outcome anyway. No time for anybody to organize anything, really, except the Russians who are already organized.

So, it seems the new “Munich agreement” has bought “peace in our time”. When the vote comes in, this government will grouse a bit, but then go on about its preferred business of “making utility bills skyrocket”, auditing conservative groups and imposing unconscionable mandates on the Catholic Church.