Ukraine

[Durnford]

Are you saying Reagans evil empire 83 speech is back with a twist?

“Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness – pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the Earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.”

“Eric Hoffer, in his book The True Believer, argues that mass movements like communism, fascism, and Nazism had a common trait in picturing Western democracies and their values as decadent, with people “too soft, too pleasure-loving and too selfish” to sacrifice for a higher cause, which for them implies an inner moral and biological decay. He further claims that those movements offered the prospect of a glorious future to frustrated people, enabling them to find a refuge from the lack of personal accomplishments in their individual existence. The individual is then assimilated into a compact collective body and “fact-proof screens from reality” are established”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

You have to wonder how much of this real and ingrained in older generations.

I am sure the west is not too soft to sacrifice for the right to sodomy and abortion.
I am praying for the conversion of the United States.

 

[GraceSofia]

Ukrainian Priest Speaks on ‘Revolution of Dignity,’ Transformation of Afflicted Country

Father Yuriy Sakvuk, director of Spiritual Life and Pastoral Ministry at Ukrainian Catholic University (UCU) in L’viv, Ukraine, spoke to students, faculty, and staff on the current situation in his troubled country. He emphasized native Ukrainians’ demands for natural human rights and the “birth of a civil society” to transform the country.

Ukraine is on a “pilgrimage from the empire of fear to the kingdom of dignity,” Father Sakvuk said, similar to the biblical flight from Egypt into the Promised Land.

“People are asking, ‘Why do we have to suffer? Why such oppression? Why so many deaths? Where was God?’” Father Sakvuk said. “I am saying to my students, ‘There is no resurrection without cross.’”

Father Sakvuk recounted how an UCU student postponed defending his doctoral dissertation to join the protests in Kiev last week and was one of nearly 100 killed by a sniper’s bullet.

The country has fought to secure Western values since the outbreak of protests in November 2013, following former President Yanukovych’s refusal to strengthen ties with the European Union. Among those Western values, freedom is the most fundamental right of every human being, Father Sakvuk said.

The video (link embedded) is interesting, too.

 

[josie_L]

Remember that the current government of Ukraine is not legitimate, either. They seized power from the president who was properly voted into office in an election monitored by multiple nations, and who had agreed to step down later this year.

There are no good guys here.

Wrong, there is no comparison, i.e., the government that is in power in the Ukraine was not put in place by a foreign nation or while that region was under foreign occupation?? Moreover, this government is no less legitimate than the last, i.e., Yanukovych violated the constitution and the laws of the lands countless times, he defrauded the people who elected him, i.e., he should have been impeached along time ago. And the fact that he said he was going to step down later this year means absolutely nothing to me, i.e., he is an extremely duplicitous man and evil to boot, do you really think I’m going to take his word for it??

 

[Seamus_L]

Pro-Russian demonstrators are now being arrested by the acting government in Kiev telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10681786/Pro-Russian-leader-arrested-in-Donetsk-as-Kiev-hits-back.html. Of course they had taken buildings in Donetsk over, which is exactly what the Euromaidan supporters did elsewhere.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Because the government in Crimea is not legitimate (“they” installed a man who in the last electorate received only 4% of the votes), Peter, and because this referendum is taking place under a Russian invasion, what part of that is not apparent???

I guess it’s the part of me that questions whether we are getting the entirety of the story or just those salient parts that promote one side or other.

I set no store in the western media’s willingness to provide a full and accurate account on any issue where the stakes (for western style corporate capitalism) are high.

The ‘truth’ is rarely presented absent ‘interpretation’ and without due consideration for the stakes that the corporate elite has in it.

Sure Putin has interests in the outcome, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that ‘monied interests’ in the west are in this because of humanitarian concerns. What is driving world politics is not concern for the welfare of ordinary citizens, it is stridently driven by an appetite for economic control by those who have most to benefit and who hold the economic power to sway what enters into the ‘public eye.’

For every ‘fact’ that is allowed to become apparent, dozens are buried and hidden from view. Often more can be ascertained by what is NOT said, than by what IS.

 

[josie_L]

I guess it’s the part of me that questions whether we are getting the entirety of the story or just those salient parts that promote one side or other.

I set no store in the western media’s willingness to provide a full and accurate account on any issue where the stakes (for western style corporate capitalism) are high.

The ‘truth’ is rarely presented absent ‘interpretation’ and without due consideration for the stakes that the corporate elite has in it.

Sure Putin has interests in the outcome, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that ‘monied interests’ in the west are in this because of humanitarian concerns. What is driving world politics is not concern for the welfare of ordinary citizens, it is stridently driven by an appetite for economic control by those who have most to benefit and who hold the economic power to sway what enters into the ‘public eye.’

For every ‘fact’ that is allowed to become apparent, dozens are buried and hidden from view. Often more can be ascertained by what is NOT said, than by what IS.

Both sides of have monetary interests, but you are neglecting to see the obvious, millions of Ukrainians were fed up with Yanukovych’s greed and totalitarian ways. That the West is taking advantage of this situation is no surprise, but at least there are siding with a people who were willing to risk their lives to attain some semblance of democracy for their country.

 

[GaryTaylor]

abortion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Russia

 

[colmywaykurtz]

I wonder how the situation will be altered by the new revelations about Edward Snowden and what he has divulged to the Russians.

 

[Tomdstone]

… It would be hard to trust an election held in an occupied region like the Crimea

Can you trust an election held in Ukraine, with the reports of neo-Nazis shooting innocent people according to the PM of Estonia?

 

[Tomdstone]

Quebec and the separatist movement is a little different. Interesting though.

The Alaska separatist movement, the Kosovo separatist movement, the Slovakia separatist movement, the Movement to separate the countries of Yugoslavia, the Northern Ireland separatist movement, the Scotland separatist movement, the declaration of American independence celebrated on July 4, these are all indications of people wanting self-determination and independence for their region, just as the people of Crimea are now asking.

 

[josie_L]

The Alaska separatist movement, the Kosovo separatist movement, the Slovakia separatist movement, the Movement to separate the countries of Yugoslavia, the Northern Ireland separatist movement, the Scotland separatist movement, the declaration of American independence celebrated on July 4, these are all indications of people wanting self-determination and independence for their region, just as the people of Crimea are now asking.

Yes, let’s gloss over the fact that the new Crimean government which was not elected by the people and formed during Russian occupation is legitimately qualified to hold a referendum??

P.S. The new prime minister of Crimea only garnered 4% of the 2012 electorate, he didn’t even get one seat in parliament.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Both sides of have monetary interests, but you are neglecting to see the obvious, millions of Ukrainians were fed up with Yanukovych’s greed and totalitarian ways. That the West is taking advantage of this situation is no surprise, but at least there are siding with a people who were willing to risk their lives to attain some semblance of democracy for their country.

I suspect the entire fiasco was orchestrated by those who have the most to gain and opposed by those who have the most to lose, but the large majority of Ukrainians are likely trying to go on with their lives as best they can. Neither of the belligerent parties likely have much of a representation (perhaps <10%) that would make them representative of the entire body of citizens.

This is why the ‘west’s’ role in fomenting the uprising is so unconscionable. “Taking advantage” is putting it politely. There should be far more ‘taking responsibility,’ than “taking advantage.” We haven’t seen much of that, at all, from western organizations that were admittedly behind the initiation of this atrocity.

Until a level of candor from “western” organizations and governments in terms of their roles in undermining opposing viewpoints is forthcoming, I think a healthy level of mistrust is warranted. As long as monied elites can hide behind ‘national security’ smokescreens, all of us should retain a healthy level of skepticism regarding what is reported in ‘the news.’

 

[josie_L]

I suspect the entire fiasco was orchestrated by those who have the most to gain and opposed by those who have the most to lose, but the large majority of Ukrainians are likely trying to go on with their lives as best they can. Neither of the belligerent parties likely have much of a representation (perhaps <10%) that would make them representative of the entire body of citizens.

Sources please. I do not for one believe that the majority of Ukrainians would just sit idly by while their rights were being stripped from them, they were at risk of becoming an autocracy.

This is why the ‘west’s’ role in fomenting the uprising is so unconscionable. “Taking advantage” is putting it politely. There should be far more ‘taking responsibility,’ than “taking advantage.” We haven’t seen much of that, at all, from western organizations that were admittedly behind the initiation of this atrocity.

It is not, if the majority of Ukrainians wanted Yanukovych ousted, i.e.,you have not proven to me that the majority of Ukrainians were not happy with Western intervention in helping them remove Yanukovych, who, by the way, was Putin’s puppet.

Until a level of candor from “western” organizations and governments in terms of their roles in undermining opposing viewpoints is forthcoming, I think a healthy level of mistrust is warranted. As long as monied elites can hide behind ‘national security’ smokescreens, all of us should retain a healthy level of skepticism regarding what is reported in ‘the news.’

A healthy mistrust does not warrant “inertia”, in other words, Peter, nations should not stand by as Russia annexes yet AGAIN another portion of a former soviet state on the pretext that Russian ethnics are in danger.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Alaska separatist movement, the Kosovo separatist movement, the Slovakia separatist movement, the Movement to separate the countries of Yugoslavia, the Northern Ireland separatist movement, the Scotland separatist movement, the declaration of American independence celebrated on July 4, these are all indications of people wanting self-determination and independence for their region, just as the people of Crimea are now asking.

Which is exactly what Ukraine wants from Russia and has it, and legally, and Crimea is part of Ukraine. Crimea very well could have taken the same path as Quebec for example last April. I don’t see anything but a staged uprising in Kiev which may be US initiated, maybe not, maybe they were doing just as you suggest Crimea has the right to do. Still Russia has no right to effectively implement marshal law under false pretense saying those are “my people” .and take a fake vote to make official what in effect is already “government confiscated” . You don’t see anything wrong with that?

 

[pepipop]

Sources please. I do not for one believe that the majority of Ukrainians would just sit idly by while their rights were being stripped from them, they were at risk of becoming an autocracy.

It is not, if the majority of Ukrainians wanted Yanukovych ousted, i.e.,you have not proven to me that the majority of Ukrainians were not happy with Western intervention in helping them remove Yanukovych, who, by the way, was Putin’s puppet.

A healthy mistrust does not warrant “inertia”, in other words, Peter, nations should not stand by as Russia annexes yet AGAIN another portion of a former soviet state on the pretext that Russian ethnics are in danger.

I genuinely do not understand what the problem is, if a former part of the soviet union wants to return to Russia? What difference does it make to any other nation in the world, aside from Ukraine? If the Crimeans are going willingly, as has been indicated by their invitation to Putin to assist their people, what difference does it make to any other country, apart from Ukraine.

Mind you, I’m not taking into account the west’s perceived financial or other losses of this occurring, but aside from these it is none of their business. If the Crimeans ask for help, want Russia out, then of course that’s a totally different scenario.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The people of Ukraine would beg to differ as would most of what I “think” is still the civil world. Geez if they wanted to go back under Putins foot all they had to do was say so. Instead he sends more troops than we have in Afghanistan. I thought we were all trying to get along, how naïve of me. I’m reading the love your neighbor book not the conversion by the sword text. I actually forgave you guys and thought you changed.

 

[josie_L]

I genuinely do not understand what the problem is, if a former part of the soviet union wants to return to Russia? What difference does it make to any other nation in the world, aside from Ukraine? If the Crimeans are going willingly, as has been indicated by their invitation to Putin to assist their people, what difference does it make to any other country, apart from Ukraine.

Mind you, I’m not taking into account the west’s perceived financial or other losses of this occurring, but aside from these it is none of their business. If the Crimeans ask for help, want Russia out, then of course that’s a totally different scenario.

Who said this was true?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Voice of Russia of course. Crimea was drifting away from Mother Moscow.

 

[Monkey1976]

Yes, let’s gloss over the fact that the new Crimean government which was not elected by the people and formed during Russian occupation is legitimately qualified to hold a referendum??

As opposed to the Ukranian government which seized power in a coup against a lame-duck leader - no matter how despised - who was voted into office in an election monitored by observers from multiple nations?

Right now, the majority of the US disapproves of both Congress and the President - do we force them out by revolution, or do we follow the rule of law and exercise our right to vote them out at the earliest opportunity?

I seriously doubt we’re getting only truth from any side: Russian, Ukranian, or Crimean. What I do know is that going back to status quo ante is effectively impossible at this point, so we can only hope and pray that there is a peaceful resolution to this situation.

 

[gilliam]

From The Guardian

Armed men enter Ukrainian post

A Reuters reporter on the scene says armed men “thought to be Russian” have entered a Ukrainian military post in Crimea “and take control, no shots fired.”

Reuters, which has a reporter at the scene, has filed a longer report on the** incident at the Ukrainian military post** southwest of Sevastopol:
“Armed men thought to be Russians drove a truck into a Ukrainian missile defence post in the Crimea region on Friday and took control without a shot being fired,” a Reuters reporter on the scene said:
Initial reports said the truck had smashed through the gates and that post in the city of Sevastopol was being stormed but the reporter could not see any signs of the gates being damaged.
A Ukrainian military official, Vladislav Seleznyov, said by telephone that the armed men took over the base without any shooting and that no one was hurt.
Another Ukrainian official told Reuters at the post that he was now mediating between the Ukrainian forces and the armed group inside, and that no arms had been seized.

Cossacks and other military irregulars preventing reporters from getting near the stormed Ukraine base

Journalists are having a hard time getting close to the scene, and there have been reports that a cameraman was beaten.

Here’s Time’s story on the attack on the base. Russian forces appear to be a mix of regulars and local pro-Russian paramilitary units.