T
triumphguy
Guest
It’s Georgia all over again.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Ukrainian president says his country is ready to go to war with Russia and says the crisis there is more dangerous than the spread of ISIS
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
It’s not that difficult to find. Russian T-72BM tanks, only found in Russia, not in Ukraine, have been filmed driving from Russia into Ukraine through Donetsk to fight the Ukrainian forces. These tanks are unique to the Russian Armed Forces. The British Embassy even posted a helpful reminder pointing out to the Kremlin what Russian tanks fighting in Ukraine look like.If Russia is rolling its’ tanks over the Ukrainian borders, each week, as reported - where is the evidence - i.e. photos of the tanks/soldiers on the ground, or satellite pictures of same.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/19/_n_6185368.html
Reuters correspondents have found the charred remains of these Russian tanks on Ukrainian battlefields.
Exclusive: Charred tanks in Ukraine point to Russian involvement
…among the debris Reuters found the blackened carcasses of what military experts have since identified as two Russian army tanks, supporting statements by Kiev and the West that the rebels were backed by troops and equipment sent by Moscow. Moscow denies the accusations though the rebels had been on the brink of defeat until late August, when the Ukrainian government says they received an injection of soldiers and weapons from Russia. Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army.
At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.
“It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia,” Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.
At the end of August, Ukraine accused Russian troops of crossing the border. To support the accusations, it released videotaped interviews with Russian paratroopers captured by Ukrainian forces in a village 15 km (nine miles) from Horbatenko. They said they served in the 98th division based in the town of Ivanovo in central Russia.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said he believed they had lost their way and crossed the unmarked segment of the border unintentionally. The captured paratroopers were later sent back to Russia. Anti-tank missiles fired near where the tanks were destroyed also appear to have originated in Russia because various used parts of Kornet anti-tank guided missiles were left there. Reuters showed three military experts photographs of the missile parts and two of them said Ukraine does not have anti-tank guided missiles of this type.
"The presence of this variant in Ukraine therefore strongly suppoamong the debris Reuters found the blackened carcasses of what military experts have since identified as two Russian army tanks, supporting statements by Kiev and the West that the rebels were backed by troops and equipment sent by Moscow. Moscow denies the accusations though the rebels had been on the brink of defeat until late August, when the Ukrainian government says they received an injection of soldiers and weapons from Russia.
Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army. At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.
“It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia,” Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.
“The presence of this variant in Ukraine therefore strongly supports the contention that Russia is supplying arms to separatist forces,” Dempsey said. Such remarks clearly undermine Russian denials of direct involvement in the conflict in Ukraine to ensure Moscow maintains some influence and make governing Ukraine difficult as Kiev charts a Westward political and economic course.
Ukrainian soldiers caught in the battles say they were quickly overcome. Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: “We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing.”
“They were Russians,” he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: “They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma.” The accounts of residents of Horbatenko, a village of a few dozen inhabitants which overlooks the fields that became the battlefield, also challenge Russia’s denials of direct intervention. Valentina Ivanovna, 75, said she was slightly wounded by shrapnel when fighting became fierce in late August.
Continued below
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
“We saw an armored convoy coming down here,” she said. “They had white circles on the armor and white flags but whose troops they were we don’t know.”
Neither the rebels nor the Ukrainian forces have white circles as their permanent recognized emblem. But another local resident, who gave her name only as Nina for fear of retribution, said she had been told the meaning of the white circles in conversations with passing soldiers who identified themselves as Russian. “One of them told me: white circles mean this is Russians,” she said. “He came to the last house for some water to drink and I asked how you can tell the difference between a Ukrainian or Russian. He said that if it’s us, there are white circles on the tanks.”
reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023
Now at this stage one can take KGB President Putin’s words as truth even though he, by his own admission, brazenly lied about no Russian troops being in Crimea in the spring of this year, or one can believe Ukraine and its democratic allies that the Kremlin is lying again about its significant military intrusion into Ukraine as it did about Crimea. I’m baffled that people would even consider Putin speaks the truth when speaking about Ukraine: i.e for instance, his excuses that his Russian soldiers found, captured, or killed in Ukraine were either lost or on vacation. He should tell that to the parents of the dead Russian soldiers he sent to fight in Ukraine against Ukrainians and who have to be secretly buried back in Russia without telling the truth.
But not only does one have to believe that Ukraine and NATO and the Western democracies are lying, **one has to believe Russian members of the Duma are also lying **when they brag about being instrumental in sending weapons into Ukraine, and that pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk in Ukraine are also lying when they upload videos thanking the Russian government for supplying weaponry to them to battle Ukrainian forces on Ukrainian land.
To believe there are no Russian weapons, tanks, or troops in Ukraine for that matter could only be true in the world of Orwellian Putinspeak, not in reality. But for some reason, Orwellian Putinspeak is held in high regard by some…how unfortunate.
Neither the rebels nor the Ukrainian forces have white circles as their permanent recognized emblem. But another local resident, who gave her name only as Nina for fear of retribution, said she had been told the meaning of the white circles in conversations with passing soldiers who identified themselves as Russian. “One of them told me: white circles mean this is Russians,” she said. “He came to the last house for some water to drink and I asked how you can tell the difference between a Ukrainian or Russian. He said that if it’s us, there are white circles on the tanks.”
reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023
Now at this stage one can take KGB President Putin’s words as truth even though he, by his own admission, brazenly lied about no Russian troops being in Crimea in the spring of this year, or one can believe Ukraine and its democratic allies that the Kremlin is lying again about its significant military intrusion into Ukraine as it did about Crimea. I’m baffled that people would even consider Putin speaks the truth when speaking about Ukraine: i.e for instance, his excuses that his Russian soldiers found, captured, or killed in Ukraine were either lost or on vacation. He should tell that to the parents of the dead Russian soldiers he sent to fight in Ukraine against Ukrainians and who have to be secretly buried back in Russia without telling the truth.
But not only does one have to believe that Ukraine and NATO and the Western democracies are lying, **one has to believe Russian members of the Duma are also lying **when they brag about being instrumental in sending weapons into Ukraine, and that pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk in Ukraine are also lying when they upload videos thanking the Russian government for supplying weaponry to them to battle Ukrainian forces on Ukrainian land.
To believe there are no Russian weapons, tanks, or troops in Ukraine for that matter could only be true in the world of Orwellian Putinspeak, not in reality. But for some reason, Orwellian Putinspeak is held in high regard by some…how unfortunate.
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
Can you understand the difference between Ukrainian and Russian? I can. What you write above is untrue to put it mildly. The Minister of Interior in the new government of Ukraine is strictly a Russian-speaker, Arsen Avakov, and the entire Cabinet can speak Russian. The most popular political talk show in Ukraine is run by a Russian-speaking Russian who is anti-Putin. The majority of eastern Ukrainians wish to remain in Ukraine including most Russian-speaking Ukrainians. In fact, the anti-Putin sentiment has even grown stronger since Putin decided to destabilize and release the dogs of war upon Ukraine. For your information, much if not most of the fighting being done by the Ukrainians against Putin’s pro-Russian separatists and terrrorists in the Donbas is being done by Russian-speakers. You can clearly see this on news reports from the area and videos from the area of the Ukrainian forces speaking Russian but since you cannot understand Russian or Ukrainian I believe, this may be lost on you. Being Russian-speaking in Ukraine does not at all mean you are not a patriot of Ukraine and most Russian-speaking Ukrainians are Ukrainian patriots and it simply grows even more as Putin disregards the Minsk ceasefire and increasethe bloodletting and violence by increasing weapons and troops in Ukraine and on Ukraine’s border. In fact, many ethnic Russians as well in Ukraine wish to have nothing to do with Putin’s political system and abhor his hybrid-war invasion of Ukraine.The Russian speaking Ukranians in the East have made it clear that they do not want to be part of a Ukraine which does not accept them. And by deposing a lawfully and freely elected president who was fair to the people in the East, the Kiev crowd has made it clear that they do not want any Russian speakers in their government. So IMHO, the best outcome would be for the East and West to separate into two countries.
Kyiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson and tons of other Ukrainian cities…majority Russian speaking and clearly against Putin and with the Ukrainian government.
The more proper dichotomy would not be Russian/Ukrainian but Ukrainian post-Soviet and Ukrainian Soviet now. The former made a revolution of dignity because they abhorred the corruption and immorality of Yanukovych’s regime and believe the value of an inidividual is inherent and does not rely upon what the state values the individual at. However, to put the primacy of the State over the individual is the mentality of a Homo Sovieticus, that the inidividual’s value comes from the State, whether it was as serfs in Tsarist Russia, or citizens of the USSR, or now citizens/subjects of Putin’s Russia. Putin has been described as a Homo Sovieticus by the venerable Economist journal and many Russia experts in this regard, and I agree. Putin has made himself the Russian State and the population his subjects.
In fact, in Donetsk where Putin has launched this violent insurgency, when people were asked to identify themselves last year, some 20% described their identity as “Soviet” and sometimes could not differentiate between Russian vs. Soviet - they were identical in their eyes. And being Russian Orthodox is not mutually exclusive to having a Soviet mentality as in valuing the Kremlin/State, as evident in the Russian Orthodox Patriarch this year awarding Russia’s Communist Party head with a medal from the Church. The ROC remains loyal to Putin and for that matter so does the Russian Communist Party which exists at Putin’s allowance.
**Moscow Patriarch awards patriarchal honor prize to top Russian Communist leader **
Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill congratulates G.A. Zyuganov’s 70th birthday. [June 26, 2014]
To the Chairman of the CPRF [Communist Party of the Russian Federation] faction in the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, G.A. Zyuganov
Code:Dear Gennady Andreyevich!
Code:With all my heart, I wish to congratulate you on this remarkable date.
Code:Being one of the most prominent politicians of modern Russia, you seek to care for the people's wellbeing and protect the traditional moral values.
Code:I hope that your fruitful activity will continue to promote socially important initiatives and the moral transformation of the society.
Code:I wish you robust health, peace, and heavenly aid in all your good deeds and initiatives.
Code:I deem it to be fit to award you with the "Order of Glory and Honor", 3rd degree.
Code:Respectfully,
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/06/moscow-patriarch-awards-patriarchal.htmlCode:+ Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
Zyuganov praises Stalin to this day and honours him yet the ROC Patriarch does not criticize him or demand, for that matter, from Putin that Lenin be removed from Red Square or that the Lubyanka where tons of Russian Orthodox were imprisoned during the USSR be torn down. The above story is from a Catholic website and I only quote it in response to those who think Putin or anyone else claiming to be a devout Orthodox is somehow mutually exclusive to also being a person with the values of a Homo Sovieticus. If anything Putin has amalgamated an ideology which takes equally from Russian Tsarist Autocracy and Russian Communism which can be called Putinism. The vast majority of people in Ukraine do not wish to live in a state with such an ideology. And many Russian Orthodox believers would not agree with their Patriarch’s relationship with Putin.
I sincerely hope Ukrainians and Russians put an end to the corruption, lack of accountabilty, alcoholism, no free press, and disregard for human life which were found in Yanukovych’s Ukraine and which, in my opinion, persist under Putin in Russia - valuing the common citizen as a subject and not as the source of their political power.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
The Russian Communist party today appears to be somewhat more moderate than previously, at least if we read the following speech reported to be by GA Zyuganov:Zyuganov praises Stalin to this day and honours him yet the ROC Patriarch does not criticize him or demand, for that matter, from Putin that Lenin be removed from Red Square or that the Lubyanka where tons of Russian Orthodox were imprisoned during the USSR be torn down. The above story is from a Catholic website and I only quote it in response to those who think Putin or anyone else claiming to be a devout Orthodox is somehow mutually exclusive to also being a person with the values of a Homo Sovieticus. If anything Putin has amalgamated an ideology which takes equally from Russian Tsarist Autocracy and Russian Communism which can be called Putinism.
Feast With the triumph of good and fair
Dear compatriots, brothers and sisters, my friends!
In such a favorite holiday of our people, the Resurrection of Christ with great joy, we congratulate each other with the triumph of eternal truth: the victory of truth over falsehood, of good over evil, of life over the non-existence. On this day we are again and again, we check the beating of his heart with the pulse of our homeland, wounded, but always as convincing story, resurgent after any trial.
Our love for Russia and hope for its revival rests on faith in the wisdom and fortitude of our people, to respect our common history and recognizing its lessons. We know definitely that guarantee the existence, of being an independent nation and the Russian power in the spiritual support - thousands of years of tradition and the Orthodox faith, as well as its faithful allies - the army and navy. At that keeps Russia. It is around these foundations in recent years is the most bitter struggle between good and evil. We must work together to resist attempts to deprive the meaning of the idea of service to the Motherland, to destroy the army, misrepresenting, and debase our great history, mock family tradition and common spiritual values, desecrate the shrine. Do not allow the implementation of these monstrous plans - the task of all honest citizens of our country. And this duty we must remember and especially in the happy days of Easter.
We believe that the ideals of good and justice, fraternity and equality proclaimed two thousand years ago, do not drown out the haters of Russia. I am sure that these values will continue to encourage the citizens of our long-suffering homeland to the light and joy. No matter how different we are, let us close, shoulder to shoulder when it comes to the welfare of our common homeland of compatriots of all
On this joyous day, congratulations on Easter Sunday to the Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill, bishops, pastors, clergy, religious and laity of the Russian Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Christians, all who consider themselves followers of the Orthodox cultural tradition.
Our unity as a catholic in the ordeal, and in bright days - guarantee of the triumph of goodness and justice, the spiritual resurrection of the nation and its prosperity.
GA Zyuganov,
Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party,
The head of the Communist Party faction in the State Duma of the Russian Federation.
The same as Scotland.I just really got to laugh at these seperatist imbeciles.
They proclaim their independence from Ukraine, then demand alimony:
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
This is just as sickening as it would be coming from some revived Nazi party in Germany.The Russian Communist party today appears to be somewhat more moderate than previously, at least if we read the following speech reported to be by GA Zyuganov:
Feast With the triumph of good and fair
Dear compatriots, brothers and sisters, my friends!
In such a favorite holiday of our people, the Resurrection of Christ with great joy, we congratulate each other with the triumph of eternal truth: the victory of truth over falsehood, of good over evil, of life over the non-existence. On this day we are again and again, we check the beating of his heart with the pulse of our homeland, wounded, but always as convincing story, resurgent after any trial.
Our love for Russia and hope for its revival rests on faith in the wisdom and fortitude of our people, to respect our common history and recognizing its lessons. We know definitely that guarantee the existence, of being an independent nation and the Russian power in the spiritual support - thousands of years of tradition and the Orthodox faith, as well as its faithful allies - the army and navy. At that keeps Russia. It is around these foundations in recent years is the most bitter struggle between good and evil. We must work together to resist attempts to deprive the meaning of the idea of service to the Motherland, to destroy the army, misrepresenting, and debase our great history, mock family tradition and common spiritual values, desecrate the shrine. Do not allow the implementation of these monstrous plans - the task of all honest citizens of our country. And this duty we must remember and especially in the happy days of Easter.
We believe that the ideals of good and justice, fraternity and equality proclaimed two thousand years ago, do not drown out the haters of Russia. I am sure that these values will continue to encourage the citizens of our long-suffering homeland to the light and joy. No matter how different we are, let us close, shoulder to shoulder when it comes to the welfare of our common homeland of compatriots of all
On this joyous day, congratulations on Easter Sunday to the Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill, bishops, pastors, clergy, religious and laity of the Russian Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Christians, all who consider themselves followers of the Orthodox cultural tradition.
Our unity as a catholic in the ordeal, and in bright days - guarantee of the triumph of goodness and justice, the spiritual resurrection of the nation and its prosperity.
GA Zyuganov,
Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party,
The head of the Communist Party faction in the State Duma of the Russian Federation.
T
triumphguy
Guest
Is this the same party that shot 100,000 priests, nuns and monks immediately prior to WW2, that allowed the Church to revive during WW2 because it was good for morale, and then suppressed it again under Khrushchev??The Russian Communist party today appears to be somewhat more moderate than previously, at least if we read the following speech reported to be by GA Zyuganov:
Feast With the triumph of good and fair
Dear compatriots, brothers and sisters, my friends!
In such a favorite holiday of our people, the Resurrection of Christ with great joy, we congratulate each other with the triumph of eternal truth: the victory of truth over falsehood, of good over evil, of life over the non-existence. On this day we are again and again, we check the beating of his heart with the pulse of our homeland, wounded, but always as convincing story, resurgent after any trial.
Our love for Russia and hope for its revival rests on faith in the wisdom and fortitude of our people, to respect our common history and recognizing its lessons. We know definitely that guarantee the existence, of being an independent nation and the Russian power in the spiritual support - thousands of years of tradition and the Orthodox faith, as well as its faithful allies - the army and navy. At that keeps Russia. It is around these foundations in recent years is the most bitter struggle between good and evil. We must work together to resist attempts to deprive the meaning of the idea of service to the Motherland, to destroy the army, misrepresenting, and debase our great history, mock family tradition and common spiritual values, desecrate the shrine. Do not allow the implementation of these monstrous plans - the task of all honest citizens of our country. And this duty we must remember and especially in the happy days of Easter.
We believe that the ideals of good and justice, fraternity and equality proclaimed two thousand years ago, do not drown out the haters of Russia. I am sure that these values will continue to encourage the citizens of our long-suffering homeland to the light and joy. No matter how different we are, let us close, shoulder to shoulder when it comes to the welfare of our common homeland of compatriots of all
On this joyous day, congratulations on Easter Sunday to the Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill, bishops, pastors, clergy, religious and laity of the Russian Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Christians, all who consider themselves followers of the Orthodox cultural tradition.
Our unity as a catholic in the ordeal, and in bright days - guarantee of the triumph of goodness and justice, the spiritual resurrection of the nation and its prosperity.
GA Zyuganov,
Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party,
The head of the Communist Party faction in the State Duma of the Russian Federation.
If it’s the same party I would take their well wishes in the vein of…
“Come into my parlour said the spider to the fly…”
E
edwest2
Guest
Wow. Can you provide some credible evidence that people, not governments, cause wars? I’ve studied military history for a while and it’s the Governments and Financial Backers who want war, not most of the peasants who fight in them.I believe that most humans are just inherently sadistic and cruel. It’s not really necessary to complicate this news story. People love hurting others, They derive the greatest joy in causing others to suffer. The sight of bloody, mangled corpses just gives a lot of people pleasure. So war analysis is ultimately pointless; people just love to hurt other people. Sadism is never offered as an explanation of world events and human history, but it’s the driving force in many human hearts. There are people who lie awake at night dreaming of it, they laugh about it, they derive supreme satisfaction from the thought of it and they are never so content as when they daydream about gore and emotional mutilation. I believe we should acknowledge that people look for excuses and reasons to war and vicariously thrill at ruined lives. People will say that evil is too simplistic an answer, but just look at the world, it’s all around us.
Ed
E
edwest2
Guest
- Status
- Not open for further replies.